Author Topic: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?  (Read 5370 times)

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Offline Flagpull

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Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« on: January 19, 2009, 12:46:06 PM »
I've eaten at both places a few times, as well as Modern Apizza.

Has there been a thread covering dough aspects of these places?

I would assume it's just a regular NY style pizza dough EXCEPT that when they work with it they use a ton of bench flour and i've seen it rip just from moving it from table to peel. So it's very, very fragile.

Should I start with a high hydration KASL dough and see what we can come up with?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/2767451824_dd790bb114.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3230/2428734043_519994e967.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2005/2429548240_97ac6fbe8f.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3089/2640425884_b2538f143d_b.jpg

I would be tempted to say "I don't have a coal oven so why bother" but I figure giving it a shot can't hurt.



Offline Flagpull

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 12:56:37 PM »
also,
<a href="http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid435563705/bctid459255759" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid435563705/bctid459255759</a>


Note the lack of sag in the dough.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 01:11:08 PM »
Philip,

Devotees of the New Haven style will take issue with your characterization of that style as "New York" but there have been many reviews and comments on the New Haven style pizza, including at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18.msg13969.html#msg13969. You will see from scott r's Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18.msg14507/topicseen.html#msg14507 that Pepe's has used a Pillsbury full strength flour. I believe that the Pillsbury brand for bread flour is now a General Mills brand. GM makes a Full Strength flour (see http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FullStrength%20Enr%20Mal%20Bl%20Bro53381.doc) but I don't know if it is the same flour that scott r mentioned.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the Full Strength flour, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/full-strength-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/53381000

Offline Flagpull

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 01:27:34 PM »
Yeah, well!

I can't compare the two as they are pretty different but this is still probably the best place for it.

It's the softness, and difficulty of working with this dough that interests me. When working with the pizza the skins sit in about an inch of flour and semolina or else it will tear. Definetly no tossing either.

So what hydration do you think I should aim for with KABF? 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2009, 01:42:09 PM »
So what hydration do you think I should aim for with KABF? 

I have not been to either Pepe's or Sally's, so I have not been in a position to learn about the dough at either place. However, when in doubt about the hydration to use with a particular flour, I try to stick fairly close to the rated absorption value for the flour and maybe a couple percent above that if I want a more highly-hydrated dough. In the case of the KABF, the rated absorption value is 62% +/-2%. Whether that will work in your case to simulate a Pepe's type dough I cannot say. Others with greater familiarity with the Pepe's dough may be in a better position to answer your question.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 06:46:57 PM »
Flagpull and Pete-zza.  Both Pepe's and Sallys use the GM full strength flour.  This is a BROMATED bread flour, very similar to all trumps, but with the lower protein content.  The dough is very wet.  Its so hydrated that they are almost pouring it out of their mixer. 

I have been able to exactly duplicate their crust without a coal fired oven, but I can not impress on you how important using the full strength flour is.  Because it is bromated this flour allows them to mix the dough less, creating the soft dough needed to combat the hardening effects of their extended bake times.   I have tried everything from long to short mixes with fork, home, and commercial planetary mixers (just like they have at pepes and sallys) using at least 10 types of non bromated flour. Unfortunately after extensive testing my conclusion is that there is no way you are going to be able to duplicate this dough without bromated flour and a 650-725 degree oven floor

Good luck!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 06:51:36 PM by scott r »

Offline Flagpull

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 01:01:53 PM »
Mmmk. I'm going to put this on the back burner for now. I have a couple 50lb bags of flour here that I need to get through before I add anything else! : )

Thanks guys.

Offline BurntEdges

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 03:21:43 PM »
Since Modern Apizza was mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I'll place my inquiry here.

Anybody familiar with New Haven pizza knows that Sally's, Pepe's, and Modern pizza enjoy the most notorieity in the area.  And I think most people would like them all, noting only subtle differences between them.

If you consume their pizza on a regular basis you will develop a favorite and mine is Modern.  Their crust, baked with what many would call excessive charring, has the coal fired flavor.  Modern Apizza sells their dough and I have purchased it on several occasions.  I have had great success with it at home.  One thing that has surprised me is that it cooks up significantly different at home, and in a good way.  At Modern their crust has a somewhat low profile, a few bubbles here and there, and a nice dark rim.

Upon purchasing their dough, Modern places it in a small pizza box buried in a mountain of flour.  It is a one pound ball that comes "out of the back" and does not feel warm.  I don't know how long it may have been out in a dough box, if at all.  It then endures a 45 minute car ride with me at room temperature.  When I arrive home, I heat the oven at 525F with a stone for about 1 hour.  So before the dough is cooked it has warmed at room temperature (in my possession) for around 2 hours.  The resulting crust, for my personal taste, is great.  I stretch it to a 14" skin, coat it thinly with olive oil, a modest amount of a san marzano sauce, then 8 oz. of Grande shredded whole milk mozz.  The crust has a lot more oven spring and large bubbles along the edge, with a few other  bubbles throughout the pie.  The pies at Modern do not exhibit the oven spring or the extent of bubbling that I get.  Although I do not get the charring & coal fire flavor that the Modern ovens yield.  This crust also reheats beautifully - crisp but not cracker-like.

Their dough does not seem overly hydrated.  I hydrate most of my dough recipes at around 65%, and I would judge by feel, and relative to the hydration of my dough, that Modern is around 55 to 60%.  It doesn't feel as wet as my dough, but it's hard to say how much drier it is.  Another interesting thing about the Modern dough is that before baking, it is very non-reactive.  Some other doughs I have made will spread out or puff a little during the room temp warming, but not the Modern dough.  Recently, I brought it home one night, plans changed, & I couldn't use it.  Oh well, I put it in the fridge and thought I'd try it the next evening.  I'm thinking that it already proofed at Modern, warmed during the car ride, now chilled again, and warmed again the following evening - good luck.  Well when I took it out it looked just the way it was when I put it in the night before.  Didn't rise any more, didn't collapse any more, it was just sitting there.  This also is how their dough behaves when I use it on the same night that I purchase it.  So I'm thinking this stuff is dead & I'm going to waste the Grande mozz on it.  Oh well, I let it warm about 1 & 1/2 hours and made a meatball pizza with it.  It was fantastic!  Great oven spring, bubbles that charred during the bake, I was shocked! Go figure.

When stretching their dough for a skin, it is clearly more elastic than my higher hydration doughs.  Their dough does spring back a bit during shaping, but it is not difficult to stretch it to whatever size you want.  I have no experience with Sally's or Pepe's dough, but I have not had the Modern dough exhibit any tearing or even a tendency to tear.  I use almost no bench flour when handling it since arrives well dusted.

What do we think they use for flour?  Scott, Pete-zza, or any other member, please let me know where I should start in an effort to clone this dough.  I need to eliminate the car trips.

Offline pazzonoah

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 12:35:19 AM »
New member here and very interested in Sallys/Pepes reverse engineer pizza as I grew up in the New Haven area and now live in Colorado. A few questions to add to this thread: is it possible to get close to effects of bromated flour using asc. acid on non-bromated flour (would prefer not to use bromated)? Any thoughts on their cheese and sauce? I've got a brick oven  (for the high heat aspect) to play with in my backyard so am happy to experiment!
Thanks!

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 08:36:28 AM »
pizzanoah,  I am pretty sure that Pepes uses a sliced low moisture mozz made by Calabro.  I had it recently and it is excellent.  Calabros fior de latte is one of the better ones that I have had as well,  even though it is the shrink wrap type and has a fairly long shelf life.  All I got for you.  -marc
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 08:38:27 AM by widespreadpizza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 09:08:27 AM »
pazzanoah and Marc,

As I noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7249.msg62573/topicseen.html#msg62573, ascorbic acid acts by a different mechanism to try to create the same effects as using bromates. But the results are not the same. Unfortunately, there don't appear to be many effective substitutes for potassium bromate in flour formulations.

With respect to the Calabro cheese, the Calabro website, at http://www.calabrocheese.com/, notes under the Cheeses tab that Pepe's uses the Calabro Whole Milk, Part Skim Mozzarella exclusively. However, a few years ago, perhaps based on something scott r or another member said, I investigated whether Pepe's was still using the Calabro cheese and was told, by Calabro, that it was not (see Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3545.msg29973.html#msg29973). It is possible, I suppose, that Pepe's went back to using the Calabro cheese. Maybe someone with current intelligence can shed some light on the cheese now being used by Pepe's.

Peter


Offline gabaghool

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Re: Pepe's / Sally's - apizza dough?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2011, 07:35:48 PM »
Describing Pepe's dough as "pouring" out of the mixer is right on.  The one complaint I've gotten from ex employees is that the dough was so hard to ball.  Not hard to work with as in making skins, simply hard to portion from bulk.  They say ours is much easier, and we are at 64%, so Pepes must be 67-68, I don't think 70.  But, we don't work with those blazing hot coal ovens AND an 8 minute bake, I figure the dough has to be super hydrated.

Oh, and don't be so sure that famous places always stick to one company's cheese.....


 

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