Author Topic: question on "00" "pizza flour"  (Read 38612 times)

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Offline canadave

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question on "00" "pizza flour"
« on: January 21, 2005, 06:56:10 PM »
Hi folks,

For those "00" flour experts around here....I have a question :)

I went to the local Italian gourmet grocery today and came away with a small bag of "00" flour that says something in Italian I couldn't understand--but the part I *did* understand was "por Pizza" :)  And it had a picture of a pizza on the front. 

The bag also showed some other types of "00" flour made by the same company (different colour bags).  What makes this "00" flour "for pizza", while other "00" flours aren't?

Dave


Offline DKM

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2005, 10:09:35 AM »
More than likely it is a marketing play to get more shelf space.  Very small changes are made that the average person could never tell and then they are marketed as for pizza, for pasta, for whatever else.

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2005, 11:58:41 AM »
Canadave,

For the most part, you have to rely on what the miller indicates the use of the particular 00 flour to be. 00 flours can come in a wide range of protein content and still be called 00. For instance, King Arthur sells a 00 clone with 8.5 percent protein. The Caputo 00 flour has a spec of 11.5-12.5 percent protein. The Bel Aria and Delverde's are in between. Yet they are all called or considered to be the equivalent (in KA's case) to 00 flour.

The 00 flours tend to be softer than the U.S/Canadian flours and are milled differently, or so I am told by those who are experts on 00 flours. I think they can all be used to make pizzas, especially the Neapolitan style pizzas, although you might prefer one brand over another and you may have to play around with the one you choose to get it to perform as you'd like. Unfortunately, under Italian law millers are not required to tell you much about their flours, including protein content, or to provide information to allow one to calculate the protein percent. I have tried on several occasions to try to find out how much protein the Bel Aria 00 flour has, including doing extensive online research and calling importers and distributors, and I still haven't been able to get the answer. All I know is that I like it (along with the Caputo brand).

Which brand are you using?

Peter
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 06:15:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline canadave

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2005, 12:04:45 PM »
Thanks for the explanation, Pete.  I'm using an Italian brand called "Divella" (http://www.divella.it).  I just went to their website....here's the page listing their different flours...I have the red bag:
http://www.divella.it/categoria.asp?idcat=25  How's your Italian? :)

When you say the Caputo has 11.5 to 12.5 % protein, isn't that fairly high?  High-gluten flour is 13-14%, right?  Not that significant a difference, is it?

For what it's worth, on my bag of 00 flour, the only English part on there says it's "superfine soft wheat flour."

I'm just wondering how I can incorporate this into my NY style pizza--whether I should use all of it exclusively, or part of it in conjunction with the high-gluten flour I have.

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2005, 03:21:09 PM »
Dave,

My Italian is not so good, but after spending a fair amount of time over the past several months at Italian websites I got to pick up a fair number of pizza terms. I did this by using the Google translator. Today I took the second link you provided and cut and pasted it into the Google search box. This took me to a link to the Divella site and I clicked on the translate feature.

This time we got lucky because the Divella site provides the protein content figures for its flours. FYI, the Divella 00 flour in the blue bag has a protein content of 10 percent and is used mainly for common kitchen applications. The 00 flour in the yellow bag has a protein content of 9.5 percent and is used for pastries like cakes and biscotti. The 00 flour in the red bag--the flour you have--has a protein content of 12.3 percent and is used for pizza (the Italian translated term is "peak") and pasta. You will notice that all of the bags of flour are labeled 00 even though they are quite different. So, clearly, the 00 designation is not protein content related. It is most likely related to the degree of milling or something like that.

You are correct that the Caputo 00 flour is relatively high in protein. But it works very nicely for a Neapolitan style crust. It is also very different from high-gluten flour, based on my use of the flour to date. I have combined 00 flour and high-gluten flour in the past in an effort to replicate DiFara's pizza. The result seemed to me to be a cross between a Neapolitan style pizza, which usually uses 00 flour, and a NY style pizza. I have never tried using any of the 00 flours to make a NY style pizza alone, although I believe member pftaylor was considering doing same at some point. My best advice is to just play around with the Divella flour by trying it alone for a NY style pizza and then mix the flour with the high-gluten flour in future experiments. And then report back to us with the results.

Peter

Offline canadave

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2005, 04:54:03 PM »
Thanks very much, Pete...I should've thought to use the Google translator.  Well, that's very handy info to know--unfortunately I *just* finished preparing a batch of dough, but maybe I'll try making another couple of dough batches tonight or tomorrow that use the 00 flour.  I'll definitely report back :)

dave

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2005, 09:00:42 AM »
I have also been experimenting with 00 flour. My first batch was 100% 00 mixed with milk and water. It left a lot to be desired. I decided to switch to a mixture of 00 and KASL and the crust results have been encouraging with just water.

I will begin to make all 00 based pies again in the next few weeks as well as 00/KASL mixture based pies. Right now the best mixture for my particular tastebuds are 70% KASL and 30% 00. This may/will probably change when I start experimenting with my grill enclosure. 
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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2005, 09:18:20 AM »
Generally the 00 flours that are designated for pizza are of higher protein content. They mill different varieties for various uses. such as making pasta, cakes, bread, or pastry. The pizza flour from caputo has "manitoba " blended with the european grains. The stong north american grain bumps up the strength of the flour making it better for pizza use. This basically emulates the neapolitan practice of blending their own, usually 85% italian and 15% manitoba... If using Caputo pizzeria flour, there is no reason to blend it with anything. it is already blended to perfection.

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2005, 10:38:25 AM »
Ron,
It sounds like you are an experienced Caputo user. I will take your suggestions and prepare batches from only Caputo 00 Pizza flour this week. Do you have any other insights you can offer with this Italian flour? I recently took delivery of a 50lb sack of it and could use the benefit of your experience.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2005, 01:20:19 PM »
Ron is perhaps too modest to mention it, but, unless I am mistaken, he and his family run Il Pizzaiolo, which is considered to be one of the best pizza establishments in the Pittsburgh area serving Neapolitan style pizzas. My recollection also is that Ron was strongly influenced by Patsy's pizza, which should be music to pftaylor's ears.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 01:29:24 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2005, 02:06:59 PM »
While on the subject of the Caputo 00 flour, I thought that those members of the forum who use the flour, or possibly other brands of 00 flour, might be interested in a recipe I received recently for using the Caputo 00 flour to make Neapolitan style pizzas. The recipe, which calls for a 1 kg. bag of flour, is for Pizza Margherita Neapolitan Style. I believe the recipe is translated from Italian, which may help explain some of the terminology and expressions used.

Recipe for Pizza Margherita Neapolitan Style

Pour 1/2 liter of water into the mixer. Add 28 grams of sea salt and let it melt for a minute after which 2 grams of fresh (not dry) yeast must be added. Add 1 kg. bag of 00 flour over the next 2 minutes. The dough must be mixed for about 15 minutes (mix on speed 1 for 5 minutes, speed 2 for 5 minutes, then speed 1 again for last 5 minutes) until right consistency has been reached (point of dough).

Once the dough is ready, remove from mixer, divide in 2, then wrap the 2 large dough balls in film (or cover with moist cloth). Let dough rise for a minimum of 3-4 hours at a temperature of 68-70 degrees F (an alternative would be to let them proof in the refrigerator overnight).

From the main dough, small pieces 8-9 oz. each must be hand removed and shaped in small round balls by rolling the dough on the flat surface. The individual smaller balls of dough will then have to be placed on selected tables where they must rest for a minimum of 4 hours to a maximum of 10 hours at a temperature of 68-70 degrees F. (an alternative would be to leave them in the refrigerator for 24 hours). After such time, the dough will be ready to be manually handled using the traditional technique. If dough is kept in a refrigerator it must be taken out at least 1 hour before use.

The traditional technique in making the pizza consists in slightly sifting the dough with flour before positioning each smaller individual half of dough on the board. This will avoid it from sticking to the surface. It is important to make sure that any extra flour be immediatelly removed so that it will not adhere to the dough and give the pizza a bitter flavor.[/b] Take an individual dough ball and place it on the surface. Start putting pressure on the dough with 8 of your 10 fingers (thumbs excluded) beginning at the center of the ball towards the exterior. Continue enlarging the dough until it reaches a diameter of approximately 10 inches. Remember that your fingers must not press against the edges in order to create a different consistency in the dough. This will enable the pizza to have a swollen, soft and fragrant crust once cooked.

The next step is the condiment phase. Spread 3 oz. of tomatoes on the flattened circular dough, making sure you leave a 1-inch margin along the border of the pie for the crust. Using a specific spoon spread the tomatoes in a circular motion starting from the center of the pie towards the outer parts. Add 3.5 oz. of fresh mozzarella cut into thin slices, a sprinkle of grated Parmesan or aged pecorino cheese, and the famous fresh basil leaf. Add drizzle of extra virgin oolive oil using the classic olive oil can. The oil must be added by pouring it in the pie in the shape of the number 6, starting from the center of the pie.

(Note: The above recipe is intended to be used in connection with a very high temperature oven. For home use, it may be necessary to increase the water content and add olive oil to the dough).

Peter
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 01:40:09 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2005, 02:37:40 PM »
As a follow-up to the last post, and a recent one of pftaylor's on the different flour possibilities of Patsy's dough, the following excerpt from Carol Field's book, The Italian Baker, might be useful. The book is now fairly dated (1985), but I suspect that the basic Italian classifications of flours may still be intact.

According to Carol Field in 'The Italian Baker,'

"The Italian baker had five grades of grano tenero to choose from, although they are classified not by strength and protein content like ours but by how much of the husk and whole grain have been sifted away. The whitest flour has the least fiber; the lower the number, the more refined and whiter the flour, so that of the five categories, "00" is the whitest and silkiest flour, "0" a bit darker and less fine, since it contains about 70 percent of the grain, "1" even darker; "2", darker and coarser yet yet, has almost disapeared from Italy.  Integrale, ... contains the whole wheat berry...'

If you were intent on reproducing Italian "00" flour, you could mix one part pastry flour with three parts all-purpose, to make "0" flour, mix one part cake flour with four parts all-purpose".

Peter

Offline pftaylor

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2005, 03:55:03 PM »
Pete-zza,
Have you tried it out yet? I bet the results will be authentic. 
For those of us less comfortable with the metric system, do you have the above recipe expressed in US terms?
I can't wait to try it out...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 04:23:28 PM by pftaylor »
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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2005, 05:59:00 PM »
My supply of the Caputo 00 (blue) came in while I was away, so I haven't yet had a chance to try it.

As for metric to ounce conversion, 1 kg. of the Caputo 00 flour is equal to 2.2 lbs., or 35.2 oz. That represents the 100% part of the baker's percent methodology. The water, at 1/2 liter (500 ml.), is equal to 500 g. and, since water has a specific density or 1.00, the 500 g. converts to a weight of 17.65 oz. That weight of water in relation to the weight of flour yields a hydration percent of 50%, which is typical of a Neapolitan dough. The sea salt, at 25 g., converts to just shy of 1.00 oz., or a hair more than 5 teaspoons. The fresh yeast, at 2 g., converts to about 0.07 oz. A cake of fresh yeast, such as sold by Fleischmann's, weighs 0.6 oz. So, 2 g. (or 0.07 oz.) is about 1/8 of such a cake of yeast. So, to put the foregoing in a table:

1 kg. Caputo 00 flour (blue) = 2.2 lbs. = 35.20 oz. (100%)
1/2 liter water = 500 ml. = 500 g. = 17.65 oz. (50%)
25 g. sea salt = approx. 1 oz. = approx. 5 teaspoons (2.8%)
2 g fresh yeast = approx. 0.07 oz. = approx. 1/8 of a cake of Fleischmann's fresh yeast (0.20%)

If you add up all the ingredients as specified in ounces, the total comes to about 54 oz. Since the recipe talks about individual dough ball weights of 8-9 oz., this suggests that one can make 6 to 7 pizzas with that weight of dough. If each dough ball is to be made into a pizza with a diameter of about 10 inches (or a radius of 5 inches), as suggested in the recipe, then the thickness factor for such a pizza is around 0.10 (for an 8-oz. dough ball) or 0.11 (for a 9-oz. dough ball). Using the baker's percents specified above, and the thickness factors as calculated for the recipe, one can then determine what amount of ingredients are needed to make any size pizza.

I look forward to the results of using the Caputo 00 flour in the recipe previously posted.

(Note: The above recipe is intended to be used in connection with a very high temperature oven. For home use, it may be necessary to increase the water content and add olive oil to the dough).

Peter
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 05:09:30 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2005, 06:08:16 PM »
pftaylor,

In my previous post, I might have added that you and others with turbo-charged ovens that operate at very high temperatures have an advantage over those of us with normal ovens. Last summer, I had an exchange of emails with Peter Reinhart in which we discussed the work that Chris Bianco has been doing in Phoenix to promote Neapolitan style pizzas. In discussing flours that can be used for such pizzas, Peter commented as follows: "...I too have found that I like bread flour better than all purpose and Italian 00, especially when I hydrate it fully. I think it's a more toothsome and flavorful flour. King Arthur All Purpose, which is a little higher in protein than other brands, also has this quality. With lower protein flours it is necessary to lower the hydration to get it to hold together. '00' flour needs very little water, but the negative trade off in a home oven is that it tends to dry out during the necessarily longer bake (7 minutes vs. 1 minute in Italian fornos!  Bianco bakes his about 3 minutes, which he can do because of the higher hydration)."

Peter
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 06:52:43 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2005, 06:45:14 PM »
The following article may be of interest to all forum members. It is in the context of artisan pizzas, but the message of passion applies to all pizza forms. The article combines the passions of Peter Reinhart, Chris Bianco and Ron Molinaro: http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article.php?id=3707.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 01:38:18 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2005, 07:34:02 PM »
I have so much to learn about true pizza making. This is a great hobby. It could take a lifetime to understand and master all the possibilities.
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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2005, 07:46:40 PM »
That's one of the reasons I chose the handle "Always learning".  There is no end to what you can learn, even for as mundane a matter as pizza. Thinking you have mastered the topic will be your undoing. As the expression goes, "The more you think you know...the more you really don't know. "

Peter

Offline canadave

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2005, 08:08:53 PM »
Exactly.  I love the self-challenging aspects of pizza-making so much...I think I'd almost be disappointed if I found a way to make a "perfect pizza" all the time.

Quote
As the expression goes, "The more you think you know...the more you really don't know. "
Or put another way--as Earl Weaver used to be fond of saying, "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."

Offline pftaylor

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Re: question on "00" "pizza flour"
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2005, 06:34:35 AM »
My favorite Earl statement was: "I gave Mike Cueller more chances than my ex-wife."
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