question on "00" "pizza flour"

[canadave]

lol! Earl was the best.

[dinks]

Canadave,

For the most part, you have to rely on what the miller indicates the use of the particular 00 flour to be. 00 flours can come in a wide range of protein content and still be called 00. For instance, King Arthur sells a 00 clone with a bit over 7 percent protein. The Caputo 00 flour has a spec of 11.5-12.5 percent protein. The Bel Aria and Delverde's are in between. Yet they are all called or considered to be the equivalent (in KA's case) to 00 flour.

The 00 flours tend to be softer than the U.S/Canadian flours and are milled differently, or so I am told by those who are experts on 00 flours. I think they can all be used to make pizzas, especially the Neapolitan style pizzas, although you might prefer one brand over another and you may have to play around with the one you choose to get it to perform as you'd like. Unfortunately, under Italian law millers are not required to tell you much about their flours, including protein content, or to provide information to allow one to calculate the protein percent. I have tried on several occasions to try to find out how much protein the Bel Aria 00 flour has, including doing extensive online research and calling importers and distributors, and I still haven't been able to get the answer. All I know is that I like it (along with the Caputo brand).

Which brand are you using?

Peter

  PETER:
  Good Afternoon.  Take a look on the Bel-Aria flour bag. Notice that it reads "4-Grams" in the specifications box. That denotes that it is the equivalent of Bread flour in protein strength , which as you know is in the neighborhood of 12% protein.
      ANOTHER WAY YOU CAN DETERMINE THE APPROX. STRENTH IS BY THE AMOUNT OF HYDRATION THE FLOUR REQUIRES TO BECOME A VIABLE MASS IN THE MIXER. AS YOU KNOW THE SRONGER THE FLOUR THE MORE HYDRATION IT REQUIRES.
   HAVE A NICE DAY MY FRIEND.
   ~DINKS.

[Pete-zza]

You are a good man, Dinks, and I admire the insights you have brought to the topics you have discussed at this forum. However, you can't imagine how much time I have spent trying to decipher the protein content of the Bel Aria flour. I expounded on this subject once before (before you became a member), so I will link you to the posting where I addressed the topic. It is Reply #17 at http://forum.pizzamaking.com/index.php?topic=445.msg4343#msg4343.

Subsequent to that posting, I called the distributor of the Bel Aria 00 flour, Bel Canto Fancy Foods, in the Bronx, NY. No one there seemed to be able to tell me the protein content of the Bel Aria 00 flour so I was referred to a someone at Orlando Food Sales, a NY-area importer and distributor of the Caputo 00 flour. He didn't know either but guessed that the Bel Aria 00 flour is perhaps around 10%.  I was told very recently that the Bel Aria 00 is a product of chefswarehouse.com. If I can find a telephone number for that outfit, I plan to call them to see what they say.

Your observation about hydration percent is a good one.  I suspect that you would have to take samples of known flours, by weight, and weigh the amounts of water that would appear to be sufficient to create similar dough characteristics for all the sampled flours. It's hardly scientific, but it might help put a flour like the 00 in its place in the protein pecking order. My recollection is that another way it can be done is to make individual balls with different flours, knead them to develop the gluten, and then wash away the starch so that all that is left is the protein, which can then be weighed. If I can find more detail on the test for doing this, I will let you know.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Dinks,

I went looking for the tests to determine protein/gluten content and found them, at the Correll website. I have cut and pasted below (with some slight editing) the two tests commonly used. They are basically the ones I briefly discussed in my previous post on this thread:

"The farino­graph is a small mixer connected to a graphing device. From mixing a small batch of test dough it charts, among other things, the water absorption capacity and mixing tolerance of a flour. A flour’s water absorption capacity is the percentage of water needed to produce a dough of a given consistency. Generally, the higher the water absorp­tion capacity, the better the flour.....Another test, which requires no equipment and has been used for years by bakers, is the gluten ball test. It’s used for comparing the protein levels of different flours, and can easily be done in a pizzeria. Here’s how to do it.

Measure out exactly 6 oz of each type of flour being tested. Mix each flour with enough water (approxi­mately 3 oz) to make a stiff dough, knead it for five minutes, then allow it to rest for fifteen minutes. After that, wash each dough ball under a stream of cool water, kneading constantly until the water runs clear and all that remains is a rubbery mass. This is pure gluten. Place the ball on a paper towel for one minute, to drain off excess water, then weigh it. The heaviest ball indi­cates the flour with the most protein.

For further comparison, form each gluten piece into a smooth ball and place them on a pan, allowing at least 3 inches between them. Bake them in a hot oven (450 to 500 degrees F) for about an hour. The balls will expand. After baking compare their size. Generally speaking, the largest ball indicates the flour with the most and, possibly, highest quality protein."

Peter

[Misheil]

Peter:

Did you get a chance to try the neopolitan recipe?

Thanks,
Marie

[Pete-zza]

Marie,

I have made so many Neapolitan style pizzas (home versions) that it's hard to remember them all. But I am fairly certain I tried the formulation you referred to and which was discussed earlier in this thread. I would not have made a large batch of dough as called for by the recipe because my practice is to make small amounts of dough--just enough for a single or a few dough balls. Also, the recipe you referenced is not intended for home applications, so trying to replicate it without the proper equipment (mixer, oven, etc.) will produce different results. Also, when a standard home oven is used, it will usually be necessary to add more water to the dough and possibly some oil. Following the recipe today, for example, I would be inclined to use around 57-60% hydration rather than the 50% figure that I calculated from the recipe itself.

Peter

[beammeup]

Generally the 00 flours that are designated for pizza are of higher protein content. They mill different varieties for various uses. such as making pasta, cakes, bread, or pastry. The pizza flour from caputo has "manitoba " blended with the european grains. The stong north american grain bumps up the strength of the flour making it better for pizza use. This basically emulates the neapolitan practice of blending their own, usually 85% italian and 15% manitoba... If using Caputo pizzeria flour, there is no reason to blend it with anything. it is already blended to perfection.

Hi Ron I have a friend from Naples who was telling me about this Manatoba flour. He says they mix 1/3 manatoba with tipo 00. I can only get Divella 00 Pizza flour in Thailand where I live so I was wondering if this Manatoba flour is available to mix as they do. I guess there is no way of knowing if they mix in this manatoba flour into the Divella?

[cularts]

I'm confused, I thought I read somewhere Italian flour needs 63-64% hydration, yet I also read Italian "oo" flour needs less hydration. We have a Woodstone oven that heats up to 700 degrees. What is the suggested formular? I have used 600g. San Felice, 384 G. water, 3g. ady, 4g salt. I found the dough to be very wet and not hold the shape of my ball very well and the gluten did not develop very well so when I tried to roll out my disk it made holes. BTW we normally use KASL with great success but my Department Chair wants me to come up with the perfect Italian pizza! 

[Matthew]

I'm confused, I thought I read somewhere Italian flour needs 63-64% hydration, yet I also read Italian "oo" flour needs less hydration. We have a Woodstone oven that heats up to 700 degrees. What is the suggested formular? I have used 600g. San Felice, 384 G. water, 3g. ady, 4g salt. I found the dough to be very wet and not hold the shape of my ball very well and the gluten did not develop very well so when I tried to roll out my disk it made holes. BTW we normally use KASL with great success but my Department Chair wants me to come up with the perfect Italian pizza! 

If you are using a planetary mixer there is a very good chance that your dough is heating up prematurely & causing it to turn into a batter which is hindering the gluten development.  You will have much better success kneading by hand or if you're serious about using Italian 00 flours you may want to propose investing in a spiral mixer.

Good Luck,
Matt

[SLEEPYHINES]

I never realized there was so much to making a great pizza.  I'm sure I have never had one. Raised in KY, Rural and on Chain restaurant Pizza's.  I instinctively knew that the crust has to be the Shining Star of any pizza.  That is why I have searched for crust recipes.  But alas I have nothing more than a Standard convection oven with 500 degrees the highest temp available.  Please tell me, is there a Great Crust recipe that I can use for my limited resources?  And what about the sauce? Any advice would be so greatly appreciated.

[cularts]

As I have been working with Italian flour all summer to come up with a dough that works for me I have, so far, come up with: 4 cups. Caputo "oo" pizza flour, 1 1/2 C. water, 2 pkgs. ADY (I'm going to try using one pack this week to see what happens), 2 Tbsp. OO and 1 tsp. salt. I mix on "stir" speed with a dough hook for 3-4 minutes, let it rest for 5 min., then mix again for 3-4. I then do a windowpane test. So far this has produced a beautiful crust, crispy on the outside and light on the inside. For sauce: I use a can of San Marzano D.O.P. tomatoes I pureed and although our budget will not allow us to purchase buffalo mozzarella I used a soft fresh mozz. and the pizza came out great. The San Marzano (look at the label carefully and if they are not D.O.P., they are not San Marzano!) tomatoes are wonderfully sweet.