Author Topic: Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)  (Read 29303 times)

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Offline scott r

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2007, 05:34:43 PM »
Joey, like many of us here on the forum who have persued copying our favorite pizzerias dough, you may be surprised to find out that they are not doing anything special.  Most pizzerias are so bad with their dough management that they make the places that are just simply doing everything right (without any secret recipes) look like gods. Add to that a pizzeria that is actually willing to spend the money to crank their oven up to 650, or use a coal oven and you have our destination pizzerias.  It is actually surprising to me how few pizzerias fit this mold, and obviously DeLorenzo's is one of them.

A properly mixed well fermented dough made with bakers yeast is probably what they are producing. I actually would be quite shocked to find out that they are really using wild yeast.  This is the case with all of the famous pizzerias I have dissected (sally's, Patsy's, pepe's, grimaldi's, totonno's etc.)

If they are really using a wild yeast culture it will be very obvious if you taste an uncooked piece of dough they have given you.  Bring the dough home and put it in the fridge for safe keeping (in case they do use wild yeast and you want to culture it later).  take a tiny little piece of the dough and leave it out on your counter to rise.  When it has stopped rising (probably within a few hours of them giving it to you), taste it.  If it is really sour they are using wild yeast.  If it is just a tiny bit sour or not at all they are using commercial yeast.

When my dough using wild yeast reaches the end if its rise it burns your tongue with the acidic sour flavor.


Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2007, 07:28:01 PM »
Man,
everyone seems to believe something different. Some think bakers yeast, some think wild, some think no yeast at all.

Here is a question. Could it be possible that they add the yeast and only allow it to rise a very short period of time? Wha t type of effect would this have on the dough and the finished crust? Would the dough be even stretchable? Would it get a nice dark brown crust?

Whatever they are doing, I bet it is really simple. If we just knew the ingredients we would be on our way. But of course there are lots of other factors to figure in.
I am starting to wonder since this recipe is from the 1930's, if they created this pie using a typical home oven and started using a commercial oven when they opened up shop. This also raises some questions of what sort of ingredients were available back then. Did they even have all these different types and grades of flours back then. what were the popular yeasts used back then? etc....

Someone mentioned that the crust and dough did not have a yeast smell or flavor at all and when i was browsing the flour aisle at the grocery store I thought about this when I looked down at a bag of Gold Medal Self-Rising flour. And I thought to myself, "Could it even be possible?".
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 07:29:41 PM by JoeyBagadonuts »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2007, 08:56:21 PM »
Here is a question. Could it be possible that they add the yeast and only allow it to rise a very short period of time? What type of effect would this have on the dough and the finished crust? Would the dough be even stretchable? Would it get a nice dark brown crust?


Joe,

I assume in the material quoted above that you are talking about commercial yeast. In that case, yes, it would be possible to make a dough to be used within a few hours. However, to get sufficient fermentation and volume (rise) in the dough, you would have to use a fair amount of yeast, usually multiples of the normal amount. It is also common in these circumstances to use warmer water than usual. What you have basically described is what is known among pizza operators as an "emergency" or "short term" dough. It is typically made when an operator runs out of dough or something happens to their regular dough that makes it unusable. The finished crust will usually be on the light side and the crumb will be breadlike. There will not be as much flavor and other positive attributes as a crust made from a dough that has been fermented for a much longer time because there is too little time for the biochemical activity in the dough to produce the byproducts of fermentation that are responsible for the flavor, crust, texture and aroma of the finished crust and crumb.

To give you a better idea of what I am talking about, you might take a look at Replies 407 and 408 and related photos at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251. For a more recent article on emergency doughs, see the Tom Lehmann Q&A toward the bottom of the page at http://www.pmq.com/mag/20070607/article.php?story=lehmann. If De Lorenzo's is in fact using cold fermentation of its doughs, they would not be making emergency doughs.

Flours have changed dramatically since the 30's due to technological and agricultural advances, so today's flours are much better than was used back in the 30's, with many more choices than were available back then. Even in the 70's, the most common flour used for pizzas was all-purpose flour and, to a somewhat lesser degree, bread flour. High-gluten flour was available but it was used more for applications like bagels rather than for pizza dough. Today, high-gluten flour may well be the most common flour used to make NY style pizzas. Yeast preferences also evolved over time, starting with fresh yeast and migrating to active dry yeast (ADY) and, finally, instant dry yeast (IDY). All three forms are still in use today, but fresh yeast is in decline and being increasingly replaced by ADY and IDY.

I can assure you that De Lorenzo's is not using self-rising flour. Self-rising flour contains a chemical leavening agent (baking powder, plus a bit of salt) and is not normally used for making pizza doughs of the type we have been discussing.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann Q&A is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same item at http://web.archive.org/web/20080121183450/http://www.pmq.com/mag/20070607/article.php?story=lehmann
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:47:08 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2007, 09:08:00 PM »
Well, back to the limited grades of flour and types of yeast back in the 1930's.  I came across an article in which they stated that the recipe has not changed. So, over time, if they were to start using different flours and different grades of yeast, wouldnt this yield a different product? After reading that, I assume they are still using the very ingedients they started with back in the 1930's. Whats Active Dry Yeast or Instant Yeast available back then? Was the most common flour all-purpose?
Someone stated that they thought the dough had an eggy smell to it. I think it was MTPIZZA. Would using an egg give it that deep brown color?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2007, 09:49:40 PM »
Joe,

Just because the recipe (which is simply a list of ingredients) remained the same does not mean that the implementations of the ingredients didn't change. Products change all the time, and products come and go, so pizza operators are often left with little choice but to adapt and make substitutions if they plan on staying in business. I would say that the likelihood of getting the identical ingredients today that were used back in the 30's is zero. They just don't exist anymore, and were replaced by newer and better products. I would venture to say that De Lorenzo's pizzas are better today than they were in the 30's.

Dry forms of yeast were invented starting sometime in the 40's. Before then, fresh yeast was what bakers used. Some operators still prefer fresh yeast, for a variety of reasons, including personal taste preference and cost (fresh yeast is the cheapest of the three forms if used in large enough volume). The American Institute of Baking conducted tests using all three forms of yeast in doughs and couldn't detect any differences in their performance. There are applications where one form of yeast may offer advantages over another, so all three forms of yeast are available for those applications. 

Eggs will indeed provide increased crust coloration. Some pizza operators use eggs, but such use is falling out of favor because of potential cross-contamination issues and because health inspectors frown on such use. Eggs are a very expensive way of getting more color in a crust, even if dry forms (which are OK with inspectors) are used. Most operators use some form of sugar (usually sucrose, or table sugar), or dried dairy whey, or dry milk products if they are after increased crust color. I don't think De Lorenzo's needs eggs or whey or dry milk products to get more color in its crusts. In fact, at too high levels, these ingredients can cause excessive bottom crust browning, and even blackening, when used in doughs that are baked at very high temperatures in a typical deck oven.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2007, 10:22:22 PM »
Man,
everyone seems to believe something different. Some think bakers yeast, some think wild, some think no yeast at all.

Joey, they are either using commercial yeast or wild yeast,  no yeast is impossible from the pictures I have seen, and there is no way they are using baking powder.   Just buy a dough ball, taste it raw, and you will know if it is commercial or wild yeast. 

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2007, 10:48:17 PM »
Joey, they are either using commercial yeast or wild yeast,  no yeast is impossible from the pictures I have seen, and there is no way they are using baking powder.   Just buy a dough ball, taste it raw, and you will know if it is commercial or wild yeast. 

They are not your typical pizzeria. I highly doubt they are going to let you just by the dough.
Someone on here, I think MTPIZZA, said her obtained a piece of scrap dough from their somehow. I would like to know how he got it.

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2007, 07:18:35 AM »
Our family has been going to DeLorenzos since the 40's, I grew up on this pizza. They used to have high back wooden booths, served Kerns soda..(their cream soda was heaven, but Kerns I believe is out of business). Their pizza was light and delicious, we would all fight over the crusts edges so we could rub and eat them in the oil left on the pizza tray. My father once coaxed Chic one of the brothers to sell him a dough ball. When we got it home we foolishly baked it up in our regular oven and the pizza was amazing even coming from a conventional home electric oven. We didn't think to save a piece of raw dough and culture it. Years passed---and a little while back while having a pizza there I asked Eileen (owners daughter) if she would sell me raw dough, she refused. I understood and didn't think bad of it, they just don't sell them. Then while paying at the register, I happen to get talking to the kid who was helping Gary flatten the doughs, while we were talking he was cutting and trimming a piece of dough around the edges and was holding the scraps in his hand. I started talking to him about why he was cutting away some of the dough and while talking he threw me a big piece joking that one of the guys in the back eats the dough raw... I couldn't believe it -- I had a piece of raw dough in my hands a gift from above!
I placed it into the pizza box with my takehome leftovers and when I got home I started my own dough buy diluting with distilled water and adding fresh flour a little at a time.. it started leavening immediatly but slowly... by the third day or so, I had the prize dough which I can attest, whatever yeast it is...wild from Italy all those years ago or whatever --it has amazing flavor. So through strictly innocent means I was able to obtain my own slice of heaven so to speak.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2007, 08:23:06 AM »
Peter, I have replicated the pies but it is only my own recipe and I can't vouch for what they do to make their dough. I only know what I smelled from the raw piece I had obtained to make my mother dough with. I use a standard recipe for one 12 inch pie... 3/4 C flour, 1/4 cup mother dough, 1/2 Cup + or minus water pinch of sugar and 1/2 tsp salt... mix rise in fridge a day or two...

MTPIZZA,

Have you ever used the above dough recipe, or any other using your De Lorenzo's cultured starter, to make a pizza with a crust that is crispy/crackery and of a comparable thickness to the De Lorenzo crust? I don't know how you measure out your flour and water and I don't know the composition of your starter in terms of percent flour and percent water, but I estimate that your recipe makes around 6 ounces of dough. For a 12" pizza, that would mean a thickness factor of a bit over 0.05, which would be very thin. Does a crust based on that recipe bake up with a crispiness and thickness comparable to a De Lorenzo crust? If so, what is the bake methodology you are using? You may have already mentioned this, but what kind of flour are you using?

Also, does your dough rise while in ther refrigerator or do you let it rise at room temperature for a while, then reshape and refrigerate, as some say is the method used by De Lorenzo's?

Peter
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 08:30:31 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2007, 08:41:47 AM »
Peter, yes I used to make my pies using the Crimaldi yeast obtained from sourdough.com and had good results but not DeLorenzo. My method is simple though I must admit I have not used my digital scale in a long time -- I do it by feel. I simply scoop 3/4 Cup of AP flour add about a 2 Tbls of semolina flour, 1/4 cup approx of the DeLorenzo starter dough from the frig. add about 1tsp. salt, pinch of sugar and add 1/2 Cup of distilled water (some of the moisture comes from the starter dough in the final mix) I don't know the hydration of the starter dough but as stated before its like a wet/spongey mass. Yes you are correct I make about a 12 inch individual pie. The dough is then put in the fridge for a day or two, I have even gone longer and the longer in the fridge the better formation of the little crisp bubbles on the crust edge which I like. It imparts a nice crispness when taking a bite. I make a thin pie although not as thin as a cracker would be. It looks like a thin crust pizza with a good edge. The final pie is not bready but is brown with nice chew and crust.
For baking I have moved away from my kitchen oven in favor of my trusty Pizza Bella I have modified which can get above 700 degrees.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2007, 09:17:19 AM »
I simply scoop 3/4 Cup of AP flour add about a 2 Tbls of semolina flour, 1/4 cup approx of the DeLorenzo starter dough from the frig. add about 1tsp. salt, pinch of sugar and add 1/2 Cup of distilled water

MTPIZZA,

How close to a De Lorenzo pie have you come using the above recipe and your modified Pizza Bella oven? It would seem that 1) with your obvious fondness for the De Lorenzo pie, 2) your possession of a cultured De Lorenzo dough, 3) your knowledge of De Lorenzo types of ingredients, and 4) the availability of a high bake temperature, you would be in the best position to come closest to making a De Lorenzo clone. And, possibly, to instruct others how to do it.

BTW, adding in the semolina, I estimate the dough thickness factor for your formulation to be closer to 0.06.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2007, 11:11:14 AM »
I placed it into the pizza box with my takehome leftovers and when I got home I started my own dough buy diluting with distilled water and adding fresh flour a little at a time.. it started leavening immediatly

The fact that this dough started leavening immediately makes me think you really do have wild yeast there.  This is great news, and certainly explains why this pizza is so good.  Congratulations on acquiring what must be a very old and reliable starter!  This means I have to make a trip to Philly now!

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2007, 01:57:00 PM »
Just by observing what or how they make their pies in DeLorenzos is nothing really special but they do have an order for things. After the crust is spread out with semolina side down, the shredded cheese goes on next. Then there is a bucket with the sauce. They ladle from the large bucket into a smaller pyrex measuring cup the sauce. I imagine this keeps the portions close for each pie.
Then from this glass measuring cup they use a plastic spoon type ladle to apply the sauce over the pie. If you notice in the pictures the tomatoes are sitting on top of the cheese and very even distribution. Then lastly they use an olive oil can the ones  with the long tapered spouts and they swirl the oil over all evenly. They don't usually apply oregano unless you ask for it. But they do sprinkle a hint of graded parmesean cheese- just a dusting over the pie. Then into that hot oven. When a pie comes out its bubbling like crazy as they put it on the pizza pan for cutting with a knife. They cut straight across then two more cuts horizontally which produces uneven slices-- and they are square on the one end not pointed like conventional slices would be. I try and duplicate the above as close as I can when I make my pies. The only thing a homeowner would have trouble with is the high temp for the oven.. which seems to be the curse of making pies at home..

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2007, 08:18:40 PM »
In between all the gabbing we have been doing on the De Lorenzo tomato pie, I was in my kitchen reinvigorating my Italian Ischia starter and making first and second generation doughs. The first generation dough was made using the Ischia starter. Subsequently, a piece of that dough was used to leaven the second generation dough from which I made my first 12" De Lorenzo clone tomato pie, as shown below. No commercial yeast was used.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2007, 08:22:20 PM »
...and in slice form


Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2007, 09:35:59 AM »
Peter EXCELLENT!!! Looks like they would hire you for sure!!! I love the look of the that pie..Even the slices are just like what they do..GREAT JOB!!. what ingrediants did you use??

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2007, 11:37:20 AM »
MTPIZZA,

Thank you. I think it helped that I had you and several other well-informed seeing-eye dogs to guide me through the process with a minimum of stumbling and falling. I have attempted below to lay out the processes I used to make the final dough, mainly for the benefit of Joe as a beginning pizza maker. In the process, I will also answer your question.

To make the dough for the pizza itself, I used the Lehmann cracker-crust dough formulation that I was experimenting with recently to make thin and crispy pizzas, except that I omitted the baking soda and substituted the natural “old dough” (a piece of the master dough) for the commercial yeast (IDY). I also added some sugar to achieve a degree of sweetness in the finished crust that was mentioned by one of our earlier posters. I had a good idea of what the Lehmann dough formulation would produce so I thought that it might get me in the ballpark with the De Lorenzo clone. I used the old dough at the rate of 30% of the total dough weight. For crust thickness purposes, I used 0.06 as the thickness factor, which is the same as I used with the Lehmann cracker crust dough formulation. For flour, I used the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour throughout, from feeding the Ischia starter (which I selected purely at random from my starter collection) to the final dough itself. To crunch all of the numbers, for both the final dough and the original master dough from which I took a piece to make the final dough, I used the preferment dough calculating tool (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html) that Boy Hits Car (Mike) designed for applications like this one. It worked like a charm.

To prepare the final dough to be used to make the pizza, I used the “front end” part of the alternative KitchenAid dough making method described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. Essentially, the process entailed using sifted flour and the three attachments (whisk, flat beater and C-hook) to do the mixing and kneading, with the salt and sugar being dissolved in the water (room temperature) in the bowl and the oil and old dough being added to the bowl during the period of the use of the whisk. Since the piece of old dough was cold (the master dough from which it was taken was kept in the refrigerator), I allowed the small piece to warm up for about 1 ˝ hours before putting it into the mixer bowl. I used the alternative dough making method referenced above because the C-hook of my mixer (basic Artisan) does not do a good job kneading low hydration doughs, in this case, 50%. I thought also that the use of the three attachments might come closer to a dough made in a spiral mixer than one made using just the C-hook.

After I finished making the dough, I let it sit at room temperature in a covered container for about 4 hours. I estimate that it rose by about two-thirds during that time. I then punched the dough down, reshaped it, and placed it in a container and into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 24 hours. With the foregoing sequence, I was trying to simulate the process that was mentioned as possibly being the one used at De Lorenzo’s.

When time came to work with the dough, it was surprisingly smooth and soft given its low hydration. However, though of good quality and not subject to ripping, it was quite elastic and hard to stretch. It required a few short rest periods to be able to shape and stretch it out to the final size (12”). I am pretty certain that the elasticity was due to insufficient fermentation. I somewhat expected this because low-hydration doughs don’t ferment as fast as much higher fermentation doughs and, in addition, I was using a natural old dough, which I expected wouldn’t work as fast as commercial yeast, especially since it had already partially fermented as part of the master dough itself. I am pretty confident about correcting this problem, as by using more old dough, warmer water, or both, and possibly using a longer room temperature ferment and/or a longer cold fermentation. This combination of changes should also allow more residual sugar to be extracted from the flour through enzyme performance and provide greater crust browning than shown in the photos. If De Lorenzo's is in fact using the old dough technique, I’d love to know how they are able to shorten the dough preparation process. Maybe they are using a much higher hydration dough and relying on the high oven temperatures to create the crispiness in the finished crust. Or maybe their dough balls are getting more than one day of fermentation.

For the ingredients for the rest of the pizza, I did a lot of improvising. The cheese was shredded Precious low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, which is one of the few decent brands available to me in the area where I live. I also used some grated Pecorino Romano cheese. The sauce was a mixture of 6-in-1s and a fresh medium-sized tomato that I cut into pieces and hand crushed, adding everything to the 6-in-1s but the outer skin. The fresh tomato was to add a bit of chunkiness to the 6-in-1s. To the sauce, I added dehydrated garlic, some dried basil and Italian oregano, and a bit of sugar. While I had some good olive oil on hand, I did not have any canola oil. So, I decided instead to use some of the Art Bell Pizza Punch oil concoction that I have been experimenting with recently (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5194.msg44052.html#msg44052). That oil blend added a nice amount of heat to the pizza. The pepperoni (Hormel) was used both under the sauce and on top of the sauce. To simulate the thick pepperoni slices used by De Lorenzo’s, I formed “mini stacks” of the Hormel pepperoni by using three slices in each stack.

The pizza was dressed on my wood peel, using corn flour in lieu of semolina flour, which I did not have on hand. The dough exhibited absolutely zero tendency to want to stick to the peel. The pizza was baked on a pizza stone that I had placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for an hour at around 500-550° F. The pizza baked on the stone for about 6 minutes, whereupon I moved it to the next-to-the-top oven rack position for an additional 1-2 minutes of additional baking, to improve the top crust coloration. The finished crust had a crunchy outer rim, and a crispiness that was most pronounce near the rim and less so toward the center. The crispiness was most noticeable with the non-rectangular slices, which I could hold up straight without any drooping. The rectangular slices, however, did droop, although the droopiness diminished as the slices cooled. In my case, I simply put the rectangular slices back onto the stone, which was still hot even though I had turned the oven off. That crisped up those slices. I think that technique would be a good one for the entire pizza. That is, returning the pizza back onto the stone (with the oven off) after a short period of cooling of the pizza.

This was my first experience using a natural starter/old dough to make a low-hydration dough for a thin and crispy pizza, so there is much more to learn. I think my next try may be to use no oil in the dough (I used 5% for the first effort) and a longer period of fermentation. In a home oven environment, it may also be possible to bake the pizza without the need for a stone, placing the pizza on a sheet of parchment paper or its equivalent and using the middle oven rack position and a longer bake time to increase the degree of crispiness and crust coloration without worry about the cheese overbrowning (since the cheese is under the sauce).

Peter
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 02:05:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2007, 12:01:14 PM »
I agree with the longer fermentation for the dough to really become stretchable. Did you allow the dough to come to room temp before stretching? I notice that when they stretch their dough it is really limp and easily stretched. They may not use all high gluten flour, perhaps try King A. All Purpose next time and see if it does'nt improve the end product. I do think the hydration is more than what you used, again they use a very very hot oven to get that spring in the crust and still keep a moist interior. A suggestion for the oil if you don't have the Canola is just us Good quality Veg. oil and mix it with the olive oil.
Don't be afraid to get that char going on the crust..take it darker!! It adds a lot of flavor to the tomatos as well... Good Luck..Would love to see the next pics you take!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2007, 02:08:34 PM »
MTPIZZA,

Yes, I did let the final dough rest at room temperature, for about 2 hours, before shaping and stretching. I agree that using a weaker flour is likely to result in a less elastic dough because of its lower protein/gluten content. However, the finished crust might be lighter as a result because of the lower protein content. A higher hydration dough would also ferment faster, which would be a plus, but in my oven I am not sure I can get the desired degree of crispiness in a thin crusted pizza, even when using high-gluten flour, without using a prebake, which I would like to avoid if at all possible in making a De Lorenzo clone. But I can see your point. If we don’t have to worry about the cheese burning, the bake time might be made long enough to promote more top crust browning, hopefully without overbaking the bottom crust. The notion of a longer bake time is what prompted me to mention the possibility of using a bake protocol such as is used for baking take-and-bake pizzas.

It occurred to me after posting my last reply that Joe, and possibly others, might want to know how I prepared the master dough (first generation dough) from which I used a piece to make the final dough (second generation dough). After refreshing my Ischia starter with flour and water over a period of about 2-3 days, at room temperature, I took a small amount (about 3 tablespoons) to be used to make the master dough. That amount represented 20% of the final dough weight I planned to use for the master dough. I estimated that the water percent for my starter culture, or preferment, was about 59% (with the rest being flour). That preferment was combined with the rest of the ingredients (flour, water, salt, oil and sugar) to make the master dough. I used the same general method (alternative KitchenAid method) for making the master dough as the final dough. The master dough was then allowed to ferment at room temperature for almost 6 hours. It was then punched down, reshaped, and put into the refrigerator for about another 12 hours. When I was ready to make the final dough, I took a piece of the refrigerated master dough, representing about 30% (a best guess estimate) of the weight of the final dough to be made, and used that piece, after letting it warm up for about 1 ˝ hours, for leavening the final dough. 

As one can see, it takes a lot of time and work to make the first pizza using the old dough method.

Peter

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2007, 10:17:52 PM »
Wow Peter,

That pie looks good.
Was the outer crust, crunchy and brittle when biting into it?

When I finally buy  tools to start making pizzas, I will have to try this recipe. Even though I will have to omit some of the ingredients in the sauce.

I was just at the WalMart, and I was actually picking up some fishing hooks and stuff, I ended up buying a bag of Gold Medal Harvest King unbleached white flour. At this point I wont be making pizza a dough with it yet, but I will try making some bread with it.

Have you(s) ever used unbleached four for making pizza dough? It actually says "ideal for bread and pizza dough" on the side of the bag. The only reason I bought this was cause I needed flour and didnt want to just get  bleached AP.

Is there any thin crust recipes using unbleached that are fairly simple.
Caution: I do not have a scale yet.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 11:14:48 PM by JoeyBagadonuts »