Author Topic: Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)  (Read 32346 times)

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Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2007, 09:35:59 AM »
Peter EXCELLENT!!! Looks like they would hire you for sure!!! I love the look of the that pie..Even the slices are just like what they do..GREAT JOB!!. what ingrediants did you use??


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2007, 11:37:20 AM »
MTPIZZA,

Thank you. I think it helped that I had you and several other well-informed seeing-eye dogs to guide me through the process with a minimum of stumbling and falling. I have attempted below to lay out the processes I used to make the final dough, mainly for the benefit of Joe as a beginning pizza maker. In the process, I will also answer your question.

To make the dough for the pizza itself, I used the Lehmann cracker-crust dough formulation that I was experimenting with recently to make thin and crispy pizzas, except that I omitted the baking soda and substituted the natural “old dough” (a piece of the master dough) for the commercial yeast (IDY). I also added some sugar to achieve a degree of sweetness in the finished crust that was mentioned by one of our earlier posters. I had a good idea of what the Lehmann dough formulation would produce so I thought that it might get me in the ballpark with the De Lorenzo clone. I used the old dough at the rate of 30% of the total dough weight. For crust thickness purposes, I used 0.06 as the thickness factor, which is the same as I used with the Lehmann cracker crust dough formulation. For flour, I used the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour throughout, from feeding the Ischia starter (which I selected purely at random from my starter collection) to the final dough itself. To crunch all of the numbers, for both the final dough and the original master dough from which I took a piece to make the final dough, I used the preferment dough calculating tool (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html) that Boy Hits Car (Mike) designed for applications like this one. It worked like a charm.

To prepare the final dough to be used to make the pizza, I used the “front end” part of the alternative KitchenAid dough making method described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. Essentially, the process entailed using sifted flour and the three attachments (whisk, flat beater and C-hook) to do the mixing and kneading, with the salt and sugar being dissolved in the water (room temperature) in the bowl and the oil and old dough being added to the bowl during the period of the use of the whisk. Since the piece of old dough was cold (the master dough from which it was taken was kept in the refrigerator), I allowed the small piece to warm up for about 1 ˝ hours before putting it into the mixer bowl. I used the alternative dough making method referenced above because the C-hook of my mixer (basic Artisan) does not do a good job kneading low hydration doughs, in this case, 50%. I thought also that the use of the three attachments might come closer to a dough made in a spiral mixer than one made using just the C-hook.

After I finished making the dough, I let it sit at room temperature in a covered container for about 4 hours. I estimate that it rose by about two-thirds during that time. I then punched the dough down, reshaped it, and placed it in a container and into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 24 hours. With the foregoing sequence, I was trying to simulate the process that was mentioned as possibly being the one used at De Lorenzo’s.

When time came to work with the dough, it was surprisingly smooth and soft given its low hydration. However, though of good quality and not subject to ripping, it was quite elastic and hard to stretch. It required a few short rest periods to be able to shape and stretch it out to the final size (12”). I am pretty certain that the elasticity was due to insufficient fermentation. I somewhat expected this because low-hydration doughs don’t ferment as fast as much higher fermentation doughs and, in addition, I was using a natural old dough, which I expected wouldn’t work as fast as commercial yeast, especially since it had already partially fermented as part of the master dough itself. I am pretty confident about correcting this problem, as by using more old dough, warmer water, or both, and possibly using a longer room temperature ferment and/or a longer cold fermentation. This combination of changes should also allow more residual sugar to be extracted from the flour through enzyme performance and provide greater crust browning than shown in the photos. If De Lorenzo's is in fact using the old dough technique, I’d love to know how they are able to shorten the dough preparation process. Maybe they are using a much higher hydration dough and relying on the high oven temperatures to create the crispiness in the finished crust. Or maybe their dough balls are getting more than one day of fermentation.

For the ingredients for the rest of the pizza, I did a lot of improvising. The cheese was shredded Precious low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, which is one of the few decent brands available to me in the area where I live. I also used some grated Pecorino Romano cheese. The sauce was a mixture of 6-in-1s and a fresh medium-sized tomato that I cut into pieces and hand crushed, adding everything to the 6-in-1s but the outer skin. The fresh tomato was to add a bit of chunkiness to the 6-in-1s. To the sauce, I added dehydrated garlic, some dried basil and Italian oregano, and a bit of sugar. While I had some good olive oil on hand, I did not have any canola oil. So, I decided instead to use some of the Art Bell Pizza Punch oil concoction that I have been experimenting with recently (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5194.msg44052.html#msg44052). That oil blend added a nice amount of heat to the pizza. The pepperoni (Hormel) was used both under the sauce and on top of the sauce. To simulate the thick pepperoni slices used by De Lorenzo’s, I formed “mini stacks” of the Hormel pepperoni by using three slices in each stack.

The pizza was dressed on my wood peel, using corn flour in lieu of semolina flour, which I did not have on hand. The dough exhibited absolutely zero tendency to want to stick to the peel. The pizza was baked on a pizza stone that I had placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for an hour at around 500-550° F. The pizza baked on the stone for about 6 minutes, whereupon I moved it to the next-to-the-top oven rack position for an additional 1-2 minutes of additional baking, to improve the top crust coloration. The finished crust had a crunchy outer rim, and a crispiness that was most pronounce near the rim and less so toward the center. The crispiness was most noticeable with the non-rectangular slices, which I could hold up straight without any drooping. The rectangular slices, however, did droop, although the droopiness diminished as the slices cooled. In my case, I simply put the rectangular slices back onto the stone, which was still hot even though I had turned the oven off. That crisped up those slices. I think that technique would be a good one for the entire pizza. That is, returning the pizza back onto the stone (with the oven off) after a short period of cooling of the pizza.

This was my first experience using a natural starter/old dough to make a low-hydration dough for a thin and crispy pizza, so there is much more to learn. I think my next try may be to use no oil in the dough (I used 5% for the first effort) and a longer period of fermentation. In a home oven environment, it may also be possible to bake the pizza without the need for a stone, placing the pizza on a sheet of parchment paper or its equivalent and using the middle oven rack position and a longer bake time to increase the degree of crispiness and crust coloration without worry about the cheese overbrowning (since the cheese is under the sauce).

Peter
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 02:05:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2007, 12:01:14 PM »
I agree with the longer fermentation for the dough to really become stretchable. Did you allow the dough to come to room temp before stretching? I notice that when they stretch their dough it is really limp and easily stretched. They may not use all high gluten flour, perhaps try King A. All Purpose next time and see if it does'nt improve the end product. I do think the hydration is more than what you used, again they use a very very hot oven to get that spring in the crust and still keep a moist interior. A suggestion for the oil if you don't have the Canola is just us Good quality Veg. oil and mix it with the olive oil.
Don't be afraid to get that char going on the crust..take it darker!! It adds a lot of flavor to the tomatos as well... Good Luck..Would love to see the next pics you take!

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2007, 02:08:34 PM »
MTPIZZA,

Yes, I did let the final dough rest at room temperature, for about 2 hours, before shaping and stretching. I agree that using a weaker flour is likely to result in a less elastic dough because of its lower protein/gluten content. However, the finished crust might be lighter as a result because of the lower protein content. A higher hydration dough would also ferment faster, which would be a plus, but in my oven I am not sure I can get the desired degree of crispiness in a thin crusted pizza, even when using high-gluten flour, without using a prebake, which I would like to avoid if at all possible in making a De Lorenzo clone. But I can see your point. If we don’t have to worry about the cheese burning, the bake time might be made long enough to promote more top crust browning, hopefully without overbaking the bottom crust. The notion of a longer bake time is what prompted me to mention the possibility of using a bake protocol such as is used for baking take-and-bake pizzas.

It occurred to me after posting my last reply that Joe, and possibly others, might want to know how I prepared the master dough (first generation dough) from which I used a piece to make the final dough (second generation dough). After refreshing my Ischia starter with flour and water over a period of about 2-3 days, at room temperature, I took a small amount (about 3 tablespoons) to be used to make the master dough. That amount represented 20% of the final dough weight I planned to use for the master dough. I estimated that the water percent for my starter culture, or preferment, was about 59% (with the rest being flour). That preferment was combined with the rest of the ingredients (flour, water, salt, oil and sugar) to make the master dough. I used the same general method (alternative KitchenAid method) for making the master dough as the final dough. The master dough was then allowed to ferment at room temperature for almost 6 hours. It was then punched down, reshaped, and put into the refrigerator for about another 12 hours. When I was ready to make the final dough, I took a piece of the refrigerated master dough, representing about 30% (a best guess estimate) of the weight of the final dough to be made, and used that piece, after letting it warm up for about 1 ˝ hours, for leavening the final dough. 

As one can see, it takes a lot of time and work to make the first pizza using the old dough method.

Peter

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2007, 10:17:52 PM »
Wow Peter,

That pie looks good.
Was the outer crust, crunchy and brittle when biting into it?

When I finally buy  tools to start making pizzas, I will have to try this recipe. Even though I will have to omit some of the ingredients in the sauce.

I was just at the WalMart, and I was actually picking up some fishing hooks and stuff, I ended up buying a bag of Gold Medal Harvest King unbleached white flour. At this point I wont be making pizza a dough with it yet, but I will try making some bread with it.

Have you(s) ever used unbleached four for making pizza dough? It actually says "ideal for bread and pizza dough" on the side of the bag. The only reason I bought this was cause I needed flour and didnt want to just get  bleached AP.

Is there any thin crust recipes using unbleached that are fairly simple.
Caution: I do not have a scale yet.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 11:14:48 PM by JoeyBagadonuts »

Offline scott r

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2007, 01:12:23 AM »
Joey, I can't wait to see your pizzas in a few months.  Hang out here with Peter for a while and you are going to make some amazing pizzas with that Harvest King flour.  It and the King Arthur bread flour are what I recommend to my friends and family that want to start making pizzas. You bought the right thing!

I know Maggio cheese is available at retail in your area.  Get the whole milk mozzarella if you can.

Do you have Cento or Pastene brand tomatoes available to you?

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2007, 01:15:51 AM »
Joey, I can't wait to see your pizzas in a few months.  Hang out here with Peter for a while and you are going to make some amazing pizzas with that Harvest King flour.  It and the King Arthur bread flour are what I recommend to my friends and family that want to start making pizzas. You bought the right thing!

I know Maggio cheese is available at retail in your area.  Get the whole milk mozzarella if you can.

Do you have Cento or Pastene brand tomatoes available to you?


I know we have Cento, RedPack, some others. I would like to score some 6-in-1's. Yes, the mozz should not be an issue at all.
I was originally thinking of making bread with this flour, but I have been readoing some posts of thise who made some pies with it.

Offline scott r

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2007, 01:31:39 AM »
If you end up making sauce for pizza I would suggest that you get only the Cento Italian (not italian style) peeled tomatoes in the yellow can with the red lettering.  Smoosh the contents really well with your hands or process the whole can in you blender/food processor.  You will then need to strain out some of the watery juice.  A good fine mesh strainer is really important for this process.   If you don't have one just order a can of the 6 in 1's from escalon.net which are also amazing, but very different.


good luck!

I Can't get enough of that harvest king crispy thin crust pizza recipe on the Round Table thread. I prefer the dough non laminated and cooked on a pizza stone.

Offline PIGMON

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2007, 07:20:53 AM »
Taking this thread down about 3 notches...!

I just finished a 2-day NJ pizza tour with stops at Vic's (Bradley Beach), Pete n Elda's (Neptune), Federici's (Freehold), Frankie Fed's (Freehold), Conte's (Princeton), and Delorenzo's (both Hudson & Hamilton Sts. - Trenton). From this Chicagoan's perspective, Delorenzo's on Hudson St. was the clear standout. I don't have anywhere near the knowledge as some of the above posters when it comes to what exactly goes into making a great pie, but I can say with complete confidence that the bread at Delorenzo's is far more substantial and tasty than any one of the other places I had the fortune of trying in the great pizza (tomato pie?) state of New Jersey. I also felt that the beautiful tomato chunks they used along with that tasty bread made for the most special bites on this NJ tour. Primordial goodness.

I would also add that their lightly-fenneled sausage was a real treat.

This is a special and unique pie, reminding me often times of Totonno's in its crispness of crust and its weight. Although its density is a bit lighter, I felt it had a comparable profile.

This is a very special form of bread; a truly wonderful discovery for me.

Sorry for the diversion!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 07:22:30 AM by PIGMON »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2007, 08:05:10 AM »

Was the outer crust, crunchy and brittle when biting into it?

Yes, the outer crust was both crunchy and a bit brittle. My jaws got a bit of a workout with the outer crust, but I liked it. Of course, I have no idea as to whether the rim of a De Lorenzo crust is brittle since I have never had a De Lorenzo pie. That is why I ask so many questions. It's the only way I can get an idea of what De Lorenzo's is doing.

Quote
Have you(s) ever used unbleached four for making pizza dough?

Yes, I have used all-purpose flour for just about every type and style of pizza dough, but usually I select the type of flour that is best suited for the type of pizza I am going to make, based on the reported experiences of the members who post their results on the forum. Since all-purpose flour is the most basic flour, available just about everywhere, and usually the least costly of all the flours, you will see it used for just about every type and style of pizza dough.

Quote
Is there any thin crust recipes using unbleached that are fairly simple.

I'm fairly certain that there are some simple thin crust recipes on the forum using unbleached flour but my own experience with them is quite limited. And they may not be entirely suitable for a De Lorenzo's clone, either because the crust may be soft or it may be cracker-like. I have been trying to make cracker type crusts, and for that style the high-gluten flour seems to be the most effective. After eating the De Lorenzo clone pizza, I could see that it does not have a cracker type crust, at least in comparison with the cracker-type crust I made recently. It was crispy but not cracker-like. That was a useful distinction for me to experience.

Peter

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2007, 08:38:22 AM »
Correct Peter, their crust is crisp not cracker like. Its the combination of all the ingrediants together that make that great pie... its a true work of art! And based on the above (PIGMON) taste test I'm not the only one who thinks so.
I still have another place to visit in NY -- John's on Bleeker street who still uses coal in their oven.. but there was a recent restaurant review and apparantly the place is not clean like Difara's and was closed down for a while... I am really getting a bad taste in my mouth regarding NY pies.... so I guess I can stop looking and just enjoy DeLorenzos near me.

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2007, 09:45:34 AM »
Just for the record and to preserve what I have done to date, I have presented below the particulars of the master dough and the final dough from which a piece of the master dough is used to leaven the final dough. The data comes from the new preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, which greatly simplifies the math and without which it would take literally hours to otherwise do all the calculations and conversions. 

Master Dough
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (158.5%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

123.2 g  |  4.35 oz | 0.27 lbs
61.6 g  |  2.17 oz | 0.14 lbs
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
195.26 g | 6.89 oz | 0.43 lbs | TF = 0.0609
 
 
16.13 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs
22.92 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs
39.05 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs

 
107.07 g | 3.78 oz | 0.24 lbs
38.67 g | 1.36 oz | 0.09 lbs
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
39.05 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
195.26 g | 6.89 oz | 0.43 lbs  | TF = 0.0609

For purposes of using the preferment dough calculating tool, the thickness factor used for the Master Dough was 0.06. I used preferment at 20% of the final dough weight. The preferment’s percent of water was 58.7% (it may well be different for someone else’s preferment). I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, which had the effect of increasing the thickness factor to 0.0609, as noted above. I used water at 61.8° F (it was just water from the refrigerator that sat at room temperature for a while), and achieved a finished dough temperature of 82.8°F. The finished dough weight was 6.95 ounces, from which I trimmed 0.17 ounces to get to the desired dough ball weight of 6.78 ounces (the weight for a dough ball for a 12" pizza, without the bowl residue compensation, and equal to 3.14159 x 6 x 6 x 0.06 = 6.78).

Final Dough (clone dough)
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (158.5%):

86.27 g  |  3.04 oz | 0.19 lbs
43.13 g  |  1.52 oz | 0.1 lbs
1.29 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
4.31 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
1.73 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
136.73 g | 4.82 oz | 0.3 lbs | TF = N/A
(Note: To the above, add the piece of dough, at 2.07 ounces, as taken from the Master Dough)

To get the above data for the final dough (the clone dough), I used the “Dough Weight” feature of the preferment dough calculating tool. I determined that I wanted to use a piece of the Master Dough that represented 30% of the weight of the final dough (6.89 ounces) as noted in the last line of the Master Dough data shown above. That piece came to 2.07 ounces (30% of 6.89 = 2.07). That left 4.823 ounces (6.89-2.07 = 4.823) for which I needed the required amounts of flour, water, salt, oil and sugar. Using 4.823 ounces in the preferment dough calculating tool and the “Dough Weight” feature of that tool, along with the baker’s percents noted above, I got the above set of data for the final dough. The water this time was 72.7° F, and the finished dough temperature was 78.6° F. Since the 6.89 ounces already reflected the bowl residue compensation, I did not need to use another residue compensation. The finished dough weight was 6.80 ounces, which was just about equal to the 6.78 ounces I used for the Master Dough.

To make the final dough, I used the piece of dough (2.07 ounces) taken from the Master Dough and added it to the ingredients as specified above for the final dough, using the alternative KitchenAid dough making method as previously mentioned and described.

The above may sound complicated but it is basically a math problem, which is unavoidably made more involved than usual because of the use of a preferment (which can have a lot of variations all by itself) and the use of the “old dough” method. Using commercial yeast would be immensely more simple. If De Lorenzo’s is in fact using the old dough method, they would most likely make two batches of dough, one of which would be set aside to ferment to be used to make the next batch of dough balls, a day or more later. To do this effectively and efficiently, they would most likely have only one person responsible (with an experienced and reliable and dependable back-up person) for the dough preparation. I don’t think they would want to rely on inexperienced low-cost labor, such as part-time high school or college kids. The only professionals I am aware of at the moment who are known to be using the old dough method are Anthony Mangieri at UPN and Chris Bianco at Pizzeria Bianco, both of whom are directly (solely?) responsible for the dough preparation. And, in Chris Bianco’s case, he is using a commercial yeast. Chris has his brother Marco as his backup. If something happened to Anthony such that he couldn't make the dough for some reason, I am not sure that he could open up his shop.

I am still not convinced that De Lorenzo’s is using a natural starter/old dough method, although the (indirect) old dough method would be simpler to administer than using the direct method of dough production, which would entail working directly from the starter culture. You would never dare to entrust that approach to amateurs in a commercial operation.

I personally don't think it is practical for individuals to use the old dough method. I view it strictly for a commercial operation where dough is being made every day (or a few days a week as in Anthony's case at UPN). For the average individual who does not use a starter culture regularly, I would recommend the direct method of dough preparation. In essence, one would only need to make the Master Dough (or a variant thereof) as I discussed above and in previous posts. That is the method I would recommend to Joe unless he plans to go into competition with De Lorenzo's or else he plans to make De Lorenzo clone pizzas his sole source of sustenance and nutrition, and he is able to retire early from his job to spend all his time at home making pizza dough. What I have done demonstrates the basic old dough process (one form), which might have value for instructional or educational purposes, but is not one that I would use myself to make a De Lorenzo clone. I would use the direct method.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 10:27:27 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2007, 03:41:02 PM »
Peter thanks for all the hard work and the rap-up.. you are correct they do use high school kids for help. I didn't realize that it would be such a difficult task for them to use the old dough method. I do know that Gary was the only one making dough because I overheard him one time not long ago stating that. But they had two high school kids putting the pies together and baking them. Recently I saw Gary back making the pies and one of helpers was gone. I guess good help is still hard to find today!... I think we accomplished here in this link what was needed.
One last remark, On the wall in the shop, there is picture of Chic and Sophie proudly holding a pie with awards and articles attached to it. The pie looks a little different in the picture than what they are turning out today. As I recall back to my younger days, I do remember a different type of texture to the crust. A little more chew and hydrated than todays version... which is drier and crispier. So perhaps they have changed the recipe, based on going from coal to electric or having to change/adjust the recipe due to ingrediants changing over the years... but after all is said and done... I still haven't tasted pizza like this anywhere. If you are ever up this neck of the woods please stop in and try one!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 03:44:42 PM by MTPIZZA »

Offline BenLee

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2007, 03:48:30 PM »
it's also noteworthy that Sammy will be running the 2nd Delorenzo's that is going to open in the fall in Hamilton Sq.  It will be interesting to see how well they preserve the style, taste, and quality.  They made a nice transition from when Chick passed it down to Gary (I've been told this by people that have been going there for over 50 years.  And Sammy makes his pies spot on too.  Slight differences are noticable but the overall quality is still 100%.  I can't wait.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2007, 03:56:30 PM »
it's also noteworthy that Sammy will be running the 2nd Delorenzo's that is going to open in the fall in Hamilton Sq.  It will be interesting to see how well they preserve the style, taste, and quality.  They made a nice transition from when Chick passed it down to Gary (I've been told this by people that have been going there for over 50 years.  And Sammy makes his pies spot on too.  Slight differences are noticable but the overall quality is still 100%.  I can't wait.

My uncle states that there is another guy there sometimes making pies and you dont notice any difference. It might tbe the guy who takes over when Sammy goes to the new location. Gary might stick around with this other guy.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2007, 04:06:56 PM »
Yes, the outer crust was both crunchy and a bit brittle. My jaws got a bit of a workout with the outer crust, but I liked it. Of course, I have no idea as to whether the rim of a De Lorenzo crust is brittle since I have never had a De Lorenzo pie. That is why I ask so many questions. It's the only way I can get an idea of what De Lorenzo's is doing.

Yes, I have used all-purpose flour for just about every type and style of pizza dough, but usually I select the type of flour that is best suited for the type of pizza I am going to make, based on the reported experiences of the members who post their results on the forum. Since all-purpose flour is the most basic flour, available just about everywhere, and usually the least costly of all the flours, you will see it used for just about every type and style of pizza dough.

I'm fairly certain that there are some simple thin crust recipes on the forum using unbleached flour but my own experience with them is quite limited. And they may not be entirely suitable for a De Lorenzo's clone, either because the crust may be soft or it may be cracker-like. I have been trying to make cracker type crusts, and for that style the high-gluten flour seems to be the most effective. After eating the De Lorenzo clone pizza, I could see that it does not have a cracker type crust, at least in comparison with the cracker-type crust I made recently. It was crispy but not cracker-like. That was a useful distinction for me to experience.

Peter


Yes, your jaws should get a lil workout if eating more than 3 slices.
The edge of the crust should snap like a stick when you try to bend it; it should not bend.
And it is not a cracker-like crust. It should be like you have described.

Within the next week or so, I will attempt to make my first pizza. I am not trying to attempt a Delorenzo's clone YET. I will, just not right now.
Right now, I just want to get familiar with ingredients and methods. I will use this GM Harvest King to make a thin crust. or at least I will try.
When I do my first attempt, I will take a couple pics to post my first results.

I am thinking about making my dough at nightime, let it rise at room temp over night. Then in the morning, I can punch it down, and then place in the fridge for 1 1/2 -2 days. Then let rest at room temp for 2-3 hours before stretching. Does that timing sound ok for rise time & flavor development?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2007, 04:44:21 PM »
I am thinking about making my dough at nightime, let it rise at room temp over night. Then in the morning, I can punch it down, and then place in the fridge for 1 1/2 -2 days. Then let rest at room temp for 2-3 hours before stretching. Does that timing sound ok for rise time & flavor development?

Joe,

The answer will depend on the particular dough recipe you decide to use, particularly the amount of yeast in relation to the amount of flour, and also the temperatures that are involved, mainly the water temperature and the finished dough temperature. If there is too much yeast, and/or the temperatures are too high, the dough may not make it out 2-3 days, mainly because of the room temperature fermentation, which can be really hard on a dough from the standpoint of its longevity, and especially so now that warmer weather is with us. If you find a recipe that you would like to try, show it to me. I think I will be able to tell you whether your plan will work with the recipe. If you decide to make a pizza using the recipe, you might want to start a new thread devoted to your results.

Peter


Offline steve cobra

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2007, 08:32:34 PM »
There has been a lot of talk about duplicating the crust, but I think it will be more challenging to duplicate the sauce.  DeLorenzo's has the best tasting sauce with one of the richest tomato flavors I have ever had.  No matter what type(s) of tomato I use I can't seem to get close to the flavor of one of these great tomato pies.  So far have tried red pack, cento, 6 in 1 and others.  Probably the closest I have gotten was a combo of Cento San Maranzzano and crushed red pack.


Steve

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2007, 08:53:23 PM »
Today I made another De Lorenzo clone pie. The dough formulation I used this time was essentially the same as before but for a few changes. Specifically, I 1) increased the thickness factor from 0.06 to 0.065, 2) lowered the hydration from 50% to 48%, and 3) eliminated the oil (which was previously 5%). Also, today’s pizza was one based on using the direct method for preparing the dough. That is, the dough was made using a part of the starter culture, not a piece of dough from a prior “master” dough.

The dough was prepared using the same dough preparation method as previously described. Once the dough was made, it was left on my kitchen counter for a bit over 5 hours, at which time I punched it down and reshaped it, put it into a covered container, and put the container into the refrigerator. It stayed in the refrigerator for about 66 hours. It was then brought to room temperature for about 5 hours. What I was hoping to achieve by the long total fermentation time, including the last 5 hours at room temperature, was to end up with a softer, more malleable dough that would shape and stretch easier, much as MTPIZZA described earlier today. Such was not to be the case. The dough was soft and smooth and maybe a bit less elastic than the last one but it was still too elastic to suit my purposes. Maybe MTPIZZA is correct that a higher hydration is needed.

Once I had stretched out the dough to about 12”, it was dressed pretty much the same as the last pie but for the following differences: 1) I used a combination of 6-in-1 tomatoes and diced Muir Glen organic diced tomatoes (I was unable to find any Red Pack tomatoes), with a bit of added sugar but nothing else, 2) I used stick Hormel pepperoni from which I cut pieces that were “two nickels” thick, and 3) I used an oil blend comprising about 80% olive oil and 20% canola oil. Since I was able to locate some semolina flour, I used that to dust the peel in lieu of the corn flour I used the last time.

The pizza was baked in the same manner as previously described. The results were similar to the last pie except that the crust overall was not quite as crispy. The outer rim had that crispy, crackly, breakable texture, which I liked, and the non-rectangular slices did not droop, but the rectangular slices were softer than the last pie. I used more sauce and cheese this time and perhaps that caused the pizza not to bake up as dry. This is an area where I could benefit by knowing more specifically how much cheese and sauce are actually used on a typical De Lorenzo pie. I also found that I preferred the taste of the oil in the crust. Consequently, the next version will reinstate the oil. But I can’t really complain about the pie or its taste. It was delicious.

The finished pie is shown in the photos below.

Peter

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2007, 09:05:21 PM »
No matter what type(s) of tomato I use I can't seem to get close to the flavor of one of these great tomato pies.  So far have tried red pack, cento, 6 in 1 and others.  Probably the closest I have gotten was a combo of Cento San Maranzzano and crushed red pack.

Steve and anyone else,

How much do we really know about the De Lorenzo sauce? Is it only tomatoes, or does it include herbs (other than oregano on request), spices, sugar, garlic, onion, grated cheeses, or oil? Is it cooked or uncooked?

Peter

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2007, 09:10:36 PM »
From what my uncle recalls, it is tomatos, salt, sugar....he is not sure if he remembers black pepper or not. I dont recall seeing bits of black pepper. Supposedly they are using RedPack, but then he said he saw a can saying 6-in-1. So, who knows, maybe a mix. But from  looking at pies using 6-in-1, it doesnt really look the same.

I know there are NO herbs in the sauce. I want to say it is uncooked, but who knows. I will try to get some info soon. I am planning on going there with the next feww days.


Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2007, 09:30:56 AM »
Another stellar pie Peter. Regarding the sauce they have changed it over the years.. last time I was there they were using Redpack and a brand I never heard of before... now I can't remember the name but it was like an old Italian guys name like... Abruzzio or something like that-- I saw them mixing it up in the back. I like the pictures of your newest creation, better charring this time. And this pie looks close to what they are doing. Are you drizzling the Canola/Olive oil mix over the pie before cooking???

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #97 on: June 19, 2007, 10:12:34 AM »
Are you drizzling the Canola/Olive oil mix over the pie before cooking???

MTPIZZA,

Yes. I believe I read that somewhere on the forum.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 10:14:09 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #98 on: June 19, 2007, 10:54:56 AM »
It it safe to directly put the pie on bricks?

I have these red bricks, but they are not the regular bricks you see on the outside of a building.

There are a bunch in y basement and I have started to heat 6 of them up in my oven.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2007, 01:25:23 PM »
Joe,

The answer will depend on the particular dough recipe you decide to use, particularly the amount of yeast in relation to the amount of flour, and also the temperatures that are involved, mainly the water temperature and the finished dough temperature. If there is too much yeast, and/or the temperatures are too high, the dough may not make it out 2-3 days, mainly because of the room temperature fermentation, which can be really hard on a dough from the standpoint of its longevity, and especially so now that warmer weather is with us. If you find a recipe that you would like to try, show it to me. I think I will be able to tell you whether your plan will work with the recipe. If you decide to make a pizza using the recipe, you might want to start a new thread devoted to your results.

Peter

here is a link to my very first pies.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5263.msg44655.html#msg44655