Author Topic: Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)  (Read 29881 times)

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Offline scott r

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #80 on: June 18, 2007, 01:12:23 AM »
Joey, I can't wait to see your pizzas in a few months.  Hang out here with Peter for a while and you are going to make some amazing pizzas with that Harvest King flour.  It and the King Arthur bread flour are what I recommend to my friends and family that want to start making pizzas. You bought the right thing!

I know Maggio cheese is available at retail in your area.  Get the whole milk mozzarella if you can.

Do you have Cento or Pastene brand tomatoes available to you?


Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2007, 01:15:51 AM »
Joey, I can't wait to see your pizzas in a few months.  Hang out here with Peter for a while and you are going to make some amazing pizzas with that Harvest King flour.  It and the King Arthur bread flour are what I recommend to my friends and family that want to start making pizzas. You bought the right thing!

I know Maggio cheese is available at retail in your area.  Get the whole milk mozzarella if you can.

Do you have Cento or Pastene brand tomatoes available to you?


I know we have Cento, RedPack, some others. I would like to score some 6-in-1's. Yes, the mozz should not be an issue at all.
I was originally thinking of making bread with this flour, but I have been readoing some posts of thise who made some pies with it.

Offline scott r

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2007, 01:31:39 AM »
If you end up making sauce for pizza I would suggest that you get only the Cento Italian (not italian style) peeled tomatoes in the yellow can with the red lettering.  Smoosh the contents really well with your hands or process the whole can in you blender/food processor.  You will then need to strain out some of the watery juice.  A good fine mesh strainer is really important for this process.   If you don't have one just order a can of the 6 in 1's from escalon.net which are also amazing, but very different.


good luck!

I Can't get enough of that harvest king crispy thin crust pizza recipe on the Round Table thread. I prefer the dough non laminated and cooked on a pizza stone.

Offline PIGMON

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2007, 07:20:53 AM »
Taking this thread down about 3 notches...!

I just finished a 2-day NJ pizza tour with stops at Vic's (Bradley Beach), Pete n Elda's (Neptune), Federici's (Freehold), Frankie Fed's (Freehold), Conte's (Princeton), and Delorenzo's (both Hudson & Hamilton Sts. - Trenton). From this Chicagoan's perspective, Delorenzo's on Hudson St. was the clear standout. I don't have anywhere near the knowledge as some of the above posters when it comes to what exactly goes into making a great pie, but I can say with complete confidence that the bread at Delorenzo's is far more substantial and tasty than any one of the other places I had the fortune of trying in the great pizza (tomato pie?) state of New Jersey. I also felt that the beautiful tomato chunks they used along with that tasty bread made for the most special bites on this NJ tour. Primordial goodness.

I would also add that their lightly-fenneled sausage was a real treat.

This is a special and unique pie, reminding me often times of Totonno's in its crispness of crust and its weight. Although its density is a bit lighter, I felt it had a comparable profile.

This is a very special form of bread; a truly wonderful discovery for me.

Sorry for the diversion!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 07:22:30 AM by PIGMON »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2007, 08:05:10 AM »

Was the outer crust, crunchy and brittle when biting into it?

Yes, the outer crust was both crunchy and a bit brittle. My jaws got a bit of a workout with the outer crust, but I liked it. Of course, I have no idea as to whether the rim of a De Lorenzo crust is brittle since I have never had a De Lorenzo pie. That is why I ask so many questions. It's the only way I can get an idea of what De Lorenzo's is doing.

Quote
Have you(s) ever used unbleached four for making pizza dough?

Yes, I have used all-purpose flour for just about every type and style of pizza dough, but usually I select the type of flour that is best suited for the type of pizza I am going to make, based on the reported experiences of the members who post their results on the forum. Since all-purpose flour is the most basic flour, available just about everywhere, and usually the least costly of all the flours, you will see it used for just about every type and style of pizza dough.

Quote
Is there any thin crust recipes using unbleached that are fairly simple.

I'm fairly certain that there are some simple thin crust recipes on the forum using unbleached flour but my own experience with them is quite limited. And they may not be entirely suitable for a De Lorenzo's clone, either because the crust may be soft or it may be cracker-like. I have been trying to make cracker type crusts, and for that style the high-gluten flour seems to be the most effective. After eating the De Lorenzo clone pizza, I could see that it does not have a cracker type crust, at least in comparison with the cracker-type crust I made recently. It was crispy but not cracker-like. That was a useful distinction for me to experience.

Peter

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2007, 08:38:22 AM »
Correct Peter, their crust is crisp not cracker like. Its the combination of all the ingrediants together that make that great pie... its a true work of art! And based on the above (PIGMON) taste test I'm not the only one who thinks so.
I still have another place to visit in NY -- John's on Bleeker street who still uses coal in their oven.. but there was a recent restaurant review and apparantly the place is not clean like Difara's and was closed down for a while... I am really getting a bad taste in my mouth regarding NY pies.... so I guess I can stop looking and just enjoy DeLorenzos near me.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2007, 09:45:34 AM »
Just for the record and to preserve what I have done to date, I have presented below the particulars of the master dough and the final dough from which a piece of the master dough is used to leaven the final dough. The data comes from the new preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, which greatly simplifies the math and without which it would take literally hours to otherwise do all the calculations and conversions. 

Master Dough
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (158.5%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

123.2 g  |  4.35 oz | 0.27 lbs
61.6 g  |  2.17 oz | 0.14 lbs
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
195.26 g | 6.89 oz | 0.43 lbs | TF = 0.0609
 
 
16.13 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs
22.92 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs
39.05 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs

 
107.07 g | 3.78 oz | 0.24 lbs
38.67 g | 1.36 oz | 0.09 lbs
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
39.05 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
195.26 g | 6.89 oz | 0.43 lbs  | TF = 0.0609

For purposes of using the preferment dough calculating tool, the thickness factor used for the Master Dough was 0.06. I used preferment at 20% of the final dough weight. The preferment’s percent of water was 58.7% (it may well be different for someone else’s preferment). I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, which had the effect of increasing the thickness factor to 0.0609, as noted above. I used water at 61.8° F (it was just water from the refrigerator that sat at room temperature for a while), and achieved a finished dough temperature of 82.8°F. The finished dough weight was 6.95 ounces, from which I trimmed 0.17 ounces to get to the desired dough ball weight of 6.78 ounces (the weight for a dough ball for a 12" pizza, without the bowl residue compensation, and equal to 3.14159 x 6 x 6 x 0.06 = 6.78).

Final Dough (clone dough)
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (158.5%):

86.27 g  |  3.04 oz | 0.19 lbs
43.13 g  |  1.52 oz | 0.1 lbs
1.29 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
4.31 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
1.73 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
136.73 g | 4.82 oz | 0.3 lbs | TF = N/A
(Note: To the above, add the piece of dough, at 2.07 ounces, as taken from the Master Dough)

To get the above data for the final dough (the clone dough), I used the “Dough Weight” feature of the preferment dough calculating tool. I determined that I wanted to use a piece of the Master Dough that represented 30% of the weight of the final dough (6.89 ounces) as noted in the last line of the Master Dough data shown above. That piece came to 2.07 ounces (30% of 6.89 = 2.07). That left 4.823 ounces (6.89-2.07 = 4.823) for which I needed the required amounts of flour, water, salt, oil and sugar. Using 4.823 ounces in the preferment dough calculating tool and the “Dough Weight” feature of that tool, along with the baker’s percents noted above, I got the above set of data for the final dough. The water this time was 72.7° F, and the finished dough temperature was 78.6° F. Since the 6.89 ounces already reflected the bowl residue compensation, I did not need to use another residue compensation. The finished dough weight was 6.80 ounces, which was just about equal to the 6.78 ounces I used for the Master Dough.

To make the final dough, I used the piece of dough (2.07 ounces) taken from the Master Dough and added it to the ingredients as specified above for the final dough, using the alternative KitchenAid dough making method as previously mentioned and described.

The above may sound complicated but it is basically a math problem, which is unavoidably made more involved than usual because of the use of a preferment (which can have a lot of variations all by itself) and the use of the “old dough” method. Using commercial yeast would be immensely more simple. If De Lorenzo’s is in fact using the old dough method, they would most likely make two batches of dough, one of which would be set aside to ferment to be used to make the next batch of dough balls, a day or more later. To do this effectively and efficiently, they would most likely have only one person responsible (with an experienced and reliable and dependable back-up person) for the dough preparation. I don’t think they would want to rely on inexperienced low-cost labor, such as part-time high school or college kids. The only professionals I am aware of at the moment who are known to be using the old dough method are Anthony Mangieri at UPN and Chris Bianco at Pizzeria Bianco, both of whom are directly (solely?) responsible for the dough preparation. And, in Chris Bianco’s case, he is using a commercial yeast. Chris has his brother Marco as his backup. If something happened to Anthony such that he couldn't make the dough for some reason, I am not sure that he could open up his shop.

I am still not convinced that De Lorenzo’s is using a natural starter/old dough method, although the (indirect) old dough method would be simpler to administer than using the direct method of dough production, which would entail working directly from the starter culture. You would never dare to entrust that approach to amateurs in a commercial operation.

I personally don't think it is practical for individuals to use the old dough method. I view it strictly for a commercial operation where dough is being made every day (or a few days a week as in Anthony's case at UPN). For the average individual who does not use a starter culture regularly, I would recommend the direct method of dough preparation. In essence, one would only need to make the Master Dough (or a variant thereof) as I discussed above and in previous posts. That is the method I would recommend to Joe unless he plans to go into competition with De Lorenzo's or else he plans to make De Lorenzo clone pizzas his sole source of sustenance and nutrition, and he is able to retire early from his job to spend all his time at home making pizza dough. What I have done demonstrates the basic old dough process (one form), which might have value for instructional or educational purposes, but is not one that I would use myself to make a De Lorenzo clone. I would use the direct method.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 10:27:27 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2007, 03:41:02 PM »
Peter thanks for all the hard work and the rap-up.. you are correct they do use high school kids for help. I didn't realize that it would be such a difficult task for them to use the old dough method. I do know that Gary was the only one making dough because I overheard him one time not long ago stating that. But they had two high school kids putting the pies together and baking them. Recently I saw Gary back making the pies and one of helpers was gone. I guess good help is still hard to find today!... I think we accomplished here in this link what was needed.
One last remark, On the wall in the shop, there is picture of Chic and Sophie proudly holding a pie with awards and articles attached to it. The pie looks a little different in the picture than what they are turning out today. As I recall back to my younger days, I do remember a different type of texture to the crust. A little more chew and hydrated than todays version... which is drier and crispier. So perhaps they have changed the recipe, based on going from coal to electric or having to change/adjust the recipe due to ingrediants changing over the years... but after all is said and done... I still haven't tasted pizza like this anywhere. If you are ever up this neck of the woods please stop in and try one!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 03:44:42 PM by MTPIZZA »

Offline BenLee

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2007, 03:48:30 PM »
it's also noteworthy that Sammy will be running the 2nd Delorenzo's that is going to open in the fall in Hamilton Sq.  It will be interesting to see how well they preserve the style, taste, and quality.  They made a nice transition from when Chick passed it down to Gary (I've been told this by people that have been going there for over 50 years.  And Sammy makes his pies spot on too.  Slight differences are noticable but the overall quality is still 100%.  I can't wait.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2007, 03:56:30 PM »
it's also noteworthy that Sammy will be running the 2nd Delorenzo's that is going to open in the fall in Hamilton Sq.  It will be interesting to see how well they preserve the style, taste, and quality.  They made a nice transition from when Chick passed it down to Gary (I've been told this by people that have been going there for over 50 years.  And Sammy makes his pies spot on too.  Slight differences are noticable but the overall quality is still 100%.  I can't wait.

My uncle states that there is another guy there sometimes making pies and you dont notice any difference. It might tbe the guy who takes over when Sammy goes to the new location. Gary might stick around with this other guy.


Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2007, 04:06:56 PM »
Yes, the outer crust was both crunchy and a bit brittle. My jaws got a bit of a workout with the outer crust, but I liked it. Of course, I have no idea as to whether the rim of a De Lorenzo crust is brittle since I have never had a De Lorenzo pie. That is why I ask so many questions. It's the only way I can get an idea of what De Lorenzo's is doing.

Yes, I have used all-purpose flour for just about every type and style of pizza dough, but usually I select the type of flour that is best suited for the type of pizza I am going to make, based on the reported experiences of the members who post their results on the forum. Since all-purpose flour is the most basic flour, available just about everywhere, and usually the least costly of all the flours, you will see it used for just about every type and style of pizza dough.

I'm fairly certain that there are some simple thin crust recipes on the forum using unbleached flour but my own experience with them is quite limited. And they may not be entirely suitable for a De Lorenzo's clone, either because the crust may be soft or it may be cracker-like. I have been trying to make cracker type crusts, and for that style the high-gluten flour seems to be the most effective. After eating the De Lorenzo clone pizza, I could see that it does not have a cracker type crust, at least in comparison with the cracker-type crust I made recently. It was crispy but not cracker-like. That was a useful distinction for me to experience.

Peter


Yes, your jaws should get a lil workout if eating more than 3 slices.
The edge of the crust should snap like a stick when you try to bend it; it should not bend.
And it is not a cracker-like crust. It should be like you have described.

Within the next week or so, I will attempt to make my first pizza. I am not trying to attempt a Delorenzo's clone YET. I will, just not right now.
Right now, I just want to get familiar with ingredients and methods. I will use this GM Harvest King to make a thin crust. or at least I will try.
When I do my first attempt, I will take a couple pics to post my first results.

I am thinking about making my dough at nightime, let it rise at room temp over night. Then in the morning, I can punch it down, and then place in the fridge for 1 1/2 -2 days. Then let rest at room temp for 2-3 hours before stretching. Does that timing sound ok for rise time & flavor development?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2007, 04:44:21 PM »
I am thinking about making my dough at nightime, let it rise at room temp over night. Then in the morning, I can punch it down, and then place in the fridge for 1 1/2 -2 days. Then let rest at room temp for 2-3 hours before stretching. Does that timing sound ok for rise time & flavor development?

Joe,

The answer will depend on the particular dough recipe you decide to use, particularly the amount of yeast in relation to the amount of flour, and also the temperatures that are involved, mainly the water temperature and the finished dough temperature. If there is too much yeast, and/or the temperatures are too high, the dough may not make it out 2-3 days, mainly because of the room temperature fermentation, which can be really hard on a dough from the standpoint of its longevity, and especially so now that warmer weather is with us. If you find a recipe that you would like to try, show it to me. I think I will be able to tell you whether your plan will work with the recipe. If you decide to make a pizza using the recipe, you might want to start a new thread devoted to your results.

Peter

Offline steve cobra

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2007, 08:32:34 PM »
There has been a lot of talk about duplicating the crust, but I think it will be more challenging to duplicate the sauce.  DeLorenzo's has the best tasting sauce with one of the richest tomato flavors I have ever had.  No matter what type(s) of tomato I use I can't seem to get close to the flavor of one of these great tomato pies.  So far have tried red pack, cento, 6 in 1 and others.  Probably the closest I have gotten was a combo of Cento San Maranzzano and crushed red pack.


Steve

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2007, 08:53:23 PM »
Today I made another De Lorenzo clone pie. The dough formulation I used this time was essentially the same as before but for a few changes. Specifically, I 1) increased the thickness factor from 0.06 to 0.065, 2) lowered the hydration from 50% to 48%, and 3) eliminated the oil (which was previously 5%). Also, today’s pizza was one based on using the direct method for preparing the dough. That is, the dough was made using a part of the starter culture, not a piece of dough from a prior “master” dough.

The dough was prepared using the same dough preparation method as previously described. Once the dough was made, it was left on my kitchen counter for a bit over 5 hours, at which time I punched it down and reshaped it, put it into a covered container, and put the container into the refrigerator. It stayed in the refrigerator for about 66 hours. It was then brought to room temperature for about 5 hours. What I was hoping to achieve by the long total fermentation time, including the last 5 hours at room temperature, was to end up with a softer, more malleable dough that would shape and stretch easier, much as MTPIZZA described earlier today. Such was not to be the case. The dough was soft and smooth and maybe a bit less elastic than the last one but it was still too elastic to suit my purposes. Maybe MTPIZZA is correct that a higher hydration is needed.

Once I had stretched out the dough to about 12”, it was dressed pretty much the same as the last pie but for the following differences: 1) I used a combination of 6-in-1 tomatoes and diced Muir Glen organic diced tomatoes (I was unable to find any Red Pack tomatoes), with a bit of added sugar but nothing else, 2) I used stick Hormel pepperoni from which I cut pieces that were “two nickels” thick, and 3) I used an oil blend comprising about 80% olive oil and 20% canola oil. Since I was able to locate some semolina flour, I used that to dust the peel in lieu of the corn flour I used the last time.

The pizza was baked in the same manner as previously described. The results were similar to the last pie except that the crust overall was not quite as crispy. The outer rim had that crispy, crackly, breakable texture, which I liked, and the non-rectangular slices did not droop, but the rectangular slices were softer than the last pie. I used more sauce and cheese this time and perhaps that caused the pizza not to bake up as dry. This is an area where I could benefit by knowing more specifically how much cheese and sauce are actually used on a typical De Lorenzo pie. I also found that I preferred the taste of the oil in the crust. Consequently, the next version will reinstate the oil. But I can’t really complain about the pie or its taste. It was delicious.

The finished pie is shown in the photos below.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2007, 09:05:21 PM »
No matter what type(s) of tomato I use I can't seem to get close to the flavor of one of these great tomato pies.  So far have tried red pack, cento, 6 in 1 and others.  Probably the closest I have gotten was a combo of Cento San Maranzzano and crushed red pack.

Steve and anyone else,

How much do we really know about the De Lorenzo sauce? Is it only tomatoes, or does it include herbs (other than oregano on request), spices, sugar, garlic, onion, grated cheeses, or oil? Is it cooked or uncooked?

Peter

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2007, 09:10:36 PM »
From what my uncle recalls, it is tomatos, salt, sugar....he is not sure if he remembers black pepper or not. I dont recall seeing bits of black pepper. Supposedly they are using RedPack, but then he said he saw a can saying 6-in-1. So, who knows, maybe a mix. But from  looking at pies using 6-in-1, it doesnt really look the same.

I know there are NO herbs in the sauce. I want to say it is uncooked, but who knows. I will try to get some info soon. I am planning on going there with the next feww days.


Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2007, 09:30:56 AM »
Another stellar pie Peter. Regarding the sauce they have changed it over the years.. last time I was there they were using Redpack and a brand I never heard of before... now I can't remember the name but it was like an old Italian guys name like... Abruzzio or something like that-- I saw them mixing it up in the back. I like the pictures of your newest creation, better charring this time. And this pie looks close to what they are doing. Are you drizzling the Canola/Olive oil mix over the pie before cooking???

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #97 on: June 19, 2007, 10:12:34 AM »
Are you drizzling the Canola/Olive oil mix over the pie before cooking???

MTPIZZA,

Yes. I believe I read that somewhere on the forum.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 10:14:09 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #98 on: June 19, 2007, 10:54:56 AM »
It it safe to directly put the pie on bricks?

I have these red bricks, but they are not the regular bricks you see on the outside of a building.

There are a bunch in y basement and I have started to heat 6 of them up in my oven.

Offline JoeyBagadonuts

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2007, 01:25:23 PM »
Joe,

The answer will depend on the particular dough recipe you decide to use, particularly the amount of yeast in relation to the amount of flour, and also the temperatures that are involved, mainly the water temperature and the finished dough temperature. If there is too much yeast, and/or the temperatures are too high, the dough may not make it out 2-3 days, mainly because of the room temperature fermentation, which can be really hard on a dough from the standpoint of its longevity, and especially so now that warmer weather is with us. If you find a recipe that you would like to try, show it to me. I think I will be able to tell you whether your plan will work with the recipe. If you decide to make a pizza using the recipe, you might want to start a new thread devoted to your results.

Peter

here is a link to my very first pies.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5263.msg44655.html#msg44655