Author Topic: Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)  (Read 29824 times)

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Offline BenLee

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2007, 03:27:33 PM »
I made a pie last week that came really close to Delorenzo's in taste.  My dough was totally different than Delorenzo's but I used Maggio cheese (which I'm 100% certain they use now), and also, took a can of Scalfani crushed tomatoes (no citric acid) and combined them with some Red Pack paste that I added water too.  I added salt to the tomato mixture and the tomatoes tasted damn near that of Delorenzo's (extremely sweet but not overpowering). 

I also had the opportunity to stop at Frank Pepe's in New Haven over the weekend.  Again, I fail to see what the hype is about.  The clam pie is delicious and their regular pies are your generic thin crust pie to me.  It's nice to try out, but I would never wait in that line.  Fortunately, it was about 9 pm and I was able to place a takeout order quickly.  The only line I'll wait for is Delorenzo's.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 03:46:46 PM by BenLee »


Offline beaunehead

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2007, 04:51:31 PM »
I agree that the only pie that's special at Pepe's is the white clam. And, they are often not serving it -- if they can't get clams.

Delorenzo's clam pie is the only one there that isn't "the best", IMO. Pepe's is for that one.

And, it's not Delorenzo's toppings, I think, that really determine its "thing"; it's the underlying crust....
Stuart

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #122 on: July 09, 2007, 11:39:53 AM »
Over the weekend, I made an all-purpose flour version of a De Lorenzo’s clone dough, in this case using the Pillsbury Best unbleached all-purpose flour. Apart from this change, I made some minor changes to the last dough formulation, including lowering the hydration slightly to compensate for the lower absorption rate of the all-purpose flour, increasing the yeast quantity, and lowering the amount of oil. The final dough formulation, for a 14” pizza, was as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (162.5%):
163.55 g  |  5.77 oz | 0.36 lbs
93.23 g  |  3.29 oz | 0.21 lbs
0.82 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
2.45 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
2.45 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
265.78 g | 9.37 oz | 0.59 lbs | TF = 0.0609
(Note: The thickness factor used in the dough calculating tool was 0.06; the water temperature was 83° F; the bowl residue compensation factor was 1.5%; the finished dough weight was 9.35 ounces, which was trimmed to 9.23 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 82° F)

The latest dough was prepared and managed in the same way as the last one (including use of the alternative KitchenAid dough making method), except that the dough was in the refrigerator for about 2 1/4 days before I removed it to make the pizza. Also, this time I slightly modified the dough shaping and dressing and baking. More specifically, I opened up the dough as soon as possible after coming out of the refrigerator, to 14”, and I allowed both the top and bottom of the dough to be exposed to the air to dry the dough out (by flipping the skin over part way through the warm-up period). The dough handled very well, although it was not as high a quality as the last dough that used high-gluten flour. However, the relatively low hydration of the dough, 57%, insured that the dough skin would not stick to anything. I used semolina flour on the wood peel, but in retrospect I found that the dough skin was dry enough that I didn’t really need the semolina flour, or just a very small amount for insurance purposes.

In dressing the stretched out dough skin (14”), I started by brushing a blend of olive oil and canola oil over the skin. I did this to serve as a barrier to the sauce so that it wouldn’t migrate into the dough. I then distributed shredded mozzarella cheese (a blend of Precious and Best Choice brands), followed by dollops of sauce. The sauce itself was a combination of 6-in-1 and hand crushed and drained whole tomatoes that, according to the label (Best Choice), were ostensibly the same as the RedPack whole tomatoes. I also added some sugar to the point where I could detect its sweetness.

After putting down the sauce, I then baked the pizza on a pizza stone that I had placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at about 500-550° F. As soon as I deposited the pizza onto the stone, I lowered the oven temperature to about 450° F so that the pizza would bake for a longer time and help dry out the crust and make it crispier. The pizza was on the stone for about 7 minutes. I then removed the pizza from the oven and topped it with raw pieces of sausage, some thick slices of Hormel pepperoni from a stick, sauteed slices of green and red peppers and mushrooms, and some more of the shredded mozzarella cheese blend. I then returned the pizza to the oven, to the second-from-the-top rack oven position, and let the pizza finish baking there to heat up/cook the toppings while increasing the browning of the crust. The additional baking time was about 3 minutes.

The photos below show the finished product. In pretty much all respects, the pizza was like the preceding ones that included all of the abovementioned toppings. The decision to use a lot of toppings in the last few pizzas, including several wet toppings, was intentional all along. I specifically wanted to see if it would be possible to make a De Lorenzo’s clone pizza in my unmodified home oven that could tolerate all of those toppings yet remain crispy pretty much throughout. I did not succeed in that respect. Maybe I would need to prebake the skin. However, that is not to detract from the overall quality and taste of the pizza. It was delicious. I personally preferred the texture and taste of the high-gluten crust over the all-purpose crust, but I don’t think that the differences were really all that major. I believe that one can safely use all-purpose flour, bread flour or high-gluten flour and achieve satisfactory results. Of course, I would be curious as to which flour De Lorenzo’s actually uses.

I am not sure where to proceed from here. In retrospect, I have pretty much come full circle—starting with a natural starter culture, to using the natural old dough method, and finally to using commercial yeast and all-purpose flour. All work well, although clearly using commercial yeast and any one of the three types of flour mentioned above will be the easiest and most convenient approach to use.

Peter

Offline bakerboy

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #123 on: July 09, 2007, 01:33:43 PM »
Haven't been on this (or any other) boards for a while because i've been busy with my new bakery (a good thing).  I saw this topic today only because i'm on vacation and thought i'd reply.  Tomato pie has been a staple of the bakery that i now own since 1940 or earlier.  The slices are square and it is cheeseless.   I have never been a huge tomato pie fan.  slices of flavorless dough with a pasty tomato topping.  I decided to embrace the "tomato pie" and make a REALLY good one:  Dough thick but light and airy, crust crisp, and a rich sauce thats flavorful without being so overspiced that it stays with you all day.  The response has been overwhelming and has kept me busy.  Its become a huge part of what we sell and we also offer other flavor selections as well.  I'll post some pics.
     Just for laughs, I ran a pizza shop (not mine) that sold traditional round pies for years and it was alway a problem finding a mozz that was good and affordable.  My new place is situated 2 blocks from a mozz and ricotta factory which is good AND affordable..........and no one wants cheese on the pies.  WTF!!

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #124 on: July 09, 2007, 02:38:52 PM »
Pete-zza, thanks for your latest effort. It looks good, real good and the bottom looks the most similar to the master's.

I was there the other day: all-purpose flour and 550 degrees. Regular Red-Pack tomatoes (not plum)....

I think you're basically getting there...now, the next step is to really "get" there....ie, to Trenton. Who knows, they might even guide you. They don't seem real worried that someone will discover their "secret"....

Just out of curiosity...the recipe/formula you used.....in cups...how many "cups" of flour do you start with....? I used 3 cups to make a batch; usually good for 2.5 pies....but, I 'm just trying to understand your proportions without gettting out a scale....

Keep up the good work....if I understand how to translate the formula into dummy-proof levels, I might try it out this weekend (or next) and see whether it really does compare well to the ideal.

And, last week, the pie was crispy cardboard all over....with an audible crunch.....

yum....

can you provide a dummy-proof translation?
Stuart

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #125 on: July 09, 2007, 03:37:37 PM »
Just out of curiosity...the recipe/formula you used.....in cups...how many "cups" of flour do you start with....? I used 3 cups to make a batch; usually good for 2.5 pies....but, I 'm just trying to understand your proportions without gettting out a scale.......can you provide a dummy-proof translation?

beaunehead,

I used to fairly routinely convert weights of flours in my dough formulations to volume measurements until forum member November informed me in a PM that my conversions were inaccurate. I was careful in making the conversions (I used the method recommended by King Arthur), and I even double-checked the conversions for accuracy before posting, but it appears that I was on the “light” side on my conversions. Since I did not want to mislead anyone, I stopped doing those conversions and stated only the weights in the dough formulations I posted. November shortly thereafter rose to the challenge and created a tool that can be used to make weight-to-volume conversions for several different ingredients, including several brands and types of flour. The tool is the one I now use, and it can be accessed at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ (the tool is the one on the left-hand side).

For purposes of using the tool, you may want to use the Gold Medal all-purpose flour from the pull-down menu as a proxy for the Pillsbury all-purpose flour that I used. The tool has a default value, which is what I use, but you can enter your own values if you’d like. To measure out the flour from your flour container after determining the volume measurements from the tool for the flour quantity I posted in the last dough formulation (5.77 ounces), you should first stir the flour in the container to loosen it, then lift the flour from the container to your measuring cup(s), using a tablespoon or something similar, and when the measuring cup is filled to slightly overflowing, level the top of the measuring cup with the flat edge of a kitchen knife or something equivalent. I do much the same with measuring spoons but just dip the measuring spoons into the flour and then level. You shouldn’t shake or tamp the measuring cup(s). I think you can now see why I prefer to use a scale to measure out weights of ingredients, and flour in particular.

You will note that the tool works in both directions—to convert mass (weight) to volume, and to convert volume to weight. I use the tool all the time when converting ingredients specified in recipes by volumes to weights. I do the same with water. The results then enable me to derive the baker’s percents and use one or more of the dough calculating tools.

If you need help with November’s tool, let me know. I can also help you with the dough formulation for any particular size of pizza, and for any particular number of pizzas that you'd like to make.

BTW, were you able to learn what kind of yeast is used at De Lorenzo’s? And what was on the pizza you had in the way of toppings?

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:28:00 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline lilbuddypizza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #126 on: July 09, 2007, 04:26:09 PM »
Haven't been on this (or any other) boards for a while because i've been busy with my new bakery (a good thing).  I saw this topic today only because i'm on vacation and thought i'd reply.  Tomato pie has been a staple of the bakery that i now own since 1940 or earlier.  The slices are square and it is cheeseless.   I have never been a huge tomato pie fan.  slices of flavorless dough with a pasty tomato topping.  I decided to embrace the "tomato pie" and make a REALLY good one:  Dough thick but light and airy, crust crisp, and a rich sauce thats flavorful without being so overspiced that it stays with you all day.  The response has been overwhelming and has kept me busy.  Its become a huge part of what we sell and we also offer other flavor selections as well.  I'll post some pics.
     Just for laughs, I ran a pizza shop (not mine) that sold traditional round pies for years and it was alway a problem finding a mozz that was good and affordable.  My new place is situated 2 blocks from a mozz and ricotta factory which is good AND affordable..........and no one wants cheese on the pies.  WTF!!

MAN! Looks tasty..... ;D

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #127 on: July 09, 2007, 05:00:52 PM »
BTW, were you able to learn what kind of yeast is used at De Lorenzo’s? And what was on the pizza you had in the way of toppings?

No....I have never asked. I had one with tomatoes and cheese; the other had sausage and onions on top of the others...

and, I did notice that that the oiling of the toppings is done also before the first stage in the oven....and at the time of the "second" baking....

you never know...you could call there, tell them you're nowhere nearby and heard the place was "chosen" No. 2 in the whole usa by the authors of the book, Everybody Loves Pizza...http://www.gapersblock.com/detour/review_everybody_loves_pizza/      and wanted to try your hand at it....they might be flattered....even.

Stuart

Offline DWChun

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #128 on: July 09, 2007, 07:53:01 PM »
I decided to embrace the "tomato pie" and make a REALLY good one:  Dough thick but light and airy, crust crisp, and a rich sauce thats flavorful without being so overspiced that it stays with you all day.

Great looking tomato pie!

..........and no one wants cheese on the pies.  WTF!!

Hehe, well I think I'd be just fine without cheese too from the looks of the pie in the photo.


DW

Offline MWTC

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #129 on: July 10, 2007, 02:16:00 PM »
If you need help with November’s tool, let me know.

 :o


 :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

MWTC  ;D


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #130 on: July 10, 2007, 02:43:01 PM »
MWTC,

I'm mindful of the fact that not everyone likes or feels comfortable with using technical/mathematical tools. In beaunehead's case, it would be better to first determine the number and sizes of pizzas he wants to make and then use one of the dough calculating tools to determine the amount (weight) of flour before using November's tool to do the conversion of the weight of flour to a volume measurement. That was the basis of my offer to beaunehead.

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #131 on: July 10, 2007, 03:21:04 PM »
I think you missed the humor in my reply. Just being silly. I was thinking of another tool.  :-D

MWTC  :chef:

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #132 on: July 10, 2007, 03:27:54 PM »
Peter,

I can appreciate your offer to beaunehead because, as a newbie chasing not only my NEPA fried dough crust but also trying to get that crisp, chewy, tangy wild yeast crust, I have to admit being overwhelmed by all the information and calculations... and calculating TOOLS on these boards!  My last iteration was pure failure due to trying to cook the poor pie on my Webber kettle and not having near enough lump charcoal loaded in...  so, I tried switching to my not-nearly-hot-enough kitchen oven...  so, now I'm not sure if the calculations I did were correct... or if it was just that I didn't have enough heat.

It's enough to make a sourdough girl want to just throw her hands in the air!  Hats off to you for wanting to help in anyway possible!

~sd

p.s.   just read MWTC's reply.... YOU NAUGHTY BOY!!   :-[
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Offline BenLee

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #133 on: September 11, 2007, 01:18:00 PM »
just went to Delorenzo's over the weekend.  They had a blue bag of Sorrento cheese under the counter.  Pies were amazing as usual.  I also noticed that they cook their pizzas in two ovens.  They cook it first in the bottom oven then transfer it to the top oven.  I wonder if they are two different temperatures or they just do it to keep track of the pies in the oven to churn them out in the order they put them in.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #134 on: September 11, 2007, 02:21:25 PM »
BenLee,

If I had to guess, I would say that it is an order management matter. At off-peak times, they may be able to get away with using only one of the two ovens and rotating the pies solely within that oven without ending up with too many cool spots created by just-finished pies. At peak times, using both ovens and moving pizzas around to allow the cool spots on the stones to recover for the new pizzas going into the ovens is an efficient way to manage the process. To avoid confusing themselves and trying to remember which pizza went where, the oven tenders may always start the pizzas in the bottom oven and move them up to the top oven if needed. That way, they don't have to open the doors often to check on where the pizzas are and they don't let too much heat out of the oven. Of course, my explanation may need adjustment if they also move pizzas back from the top oven to the bottom oven  ???.

Peter

Offline BenLee

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #135 on: September 11, 2007, 02:34:48 PM »
BenLee,

If I had to guess, I would say that it is an order management matter. At off-peak times, they may be able to get away with using only one of the two ovens and rotating the pies solely within that oven without ending up with too many cool spots created by just-finished pies. At peak times, using both ovens and moving pizzas around to allow the cool spots on the stones to recover for the new pizzas going into the ovens is an efficient way to manage the process. To avoid confusing themselves and trying to remember which pizza went where, the oven tenders may always start the pizzas in the bottom oven and move them up to the top oven if needed. That way, they don't have to open the doors often to check on where the pizzas are and they don't let too much heat out of the oven. Of course, my explanation may need adjustment if they also move pizzas back from the top oven to the bottom oven  ???.


Peter

I'm not sure.  Then again, I don't think there is such thing as an off peak time at Delorenzos. 

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #136 on: September 12, 2007, 09:22:06 AM »
Yea they usually have the phone off the hook cause its so busy...

Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #137 on: September 18, 2007, 09:13:24 AM »
Haven't been on this (or any other) boards for a while because i've been busy with my new bakery (a good thing).  I saw this topic today only because i'm on vacation and thought i'd reply.  Tomato pie has been a staple of the bakery that i now own since 1940 or earlier. 

Bakerboy, where is your bakery??

---Guy
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #138 on: September 20, 2007, 09:42:04 PM »
Guy,

bakerboy (Barry) was on the forum recently but I believe he missed your post about his bakery. If I had to guess, I would say it is the Black Lab Breads bakery, whose website is at http://www.blacklabbreads.com/. Everything I read at that website seems to fit based on what bakerboy has said in the past in his posts.

Peter

Offline abatardi

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Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie (Split Topic)
« Reply #139 on: September 20, 2007, 10:01:47 PM »
bakerboy your crust looks amazing, care to share your technique? :-)

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