Author Topic: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)  (Read 6688 times)

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Offline venividibitchy

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Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« on: February 08, 2009, 10:49:17 PM »
Hi all,

I've been browsing through the rather overwhelming NY style recipe thread, and am not quite sure where to begin. I'm fairly certain that the general NY-style recipe isn't what I'm looking for.

I've been making my own pizzas for awhile, but haven't really experimented too much with my ingredients, as the result was always decent. As is, I get a thin crust, ever-so-slightly bready, ever-so-slightly airy, more along the lines of a thinner Neapolitan-style slice. It's very good, but I have something else in mind.

In the attached picture, the first three photos (#1-3) show something similar to what my present recipe yields (toppings aside); the later four (#4-7) are the style I'm looking to achieve.

I'm assuming that I need a higher-gluten content in my flour, and longer kneading? I use all-purpose or unbleached white...whatever's in the cupboard. Blasphemy to all of your ears, I'm sure.

I have access to a conventional oven (up to 550F), and a breadmaker with a dough setting.

Any insight or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 10:57:20 PM by venividibitchy »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 02:13:09 PM »
venividibitchy,

It is very difficult to reverse engineer pizzas from photos. There are simply too many variables, including the dough formulation used (especially the type of flour and the amounts of sugar and oil, if any), the fermentation protocol (quite likely a one or two day cold fermentation), the type of oven used (most likely a deck oven in the case of the pizzas in photos 4-7), bake time and bake temperature. You appear to be after a thin-crusted pizza with a light-colored, small rim. Thinness is largely a function of amount of dough used for the pizza size. A light colored rim can be produced using any of the basic pizza flours, so the flour shouldn't be a limiting factor. A small rim can be achieved by using a small amount of dough in relation to the pizza size and also by shaping and stretching the skin so that it ends up with a naturally small rim. A low-hydration dough or a long knead that produces a fairly tight and dense dough might also contribute to a small rim.

It might also help if we knew where the pizzas in photos 4-7 came from, particularly if they came from well known pizzerias. Our members have collectively been to many pizza places that specialize in the NY style, including the slice places, so that information might offer some clues. If you actually had the pizzas shown in photos 4-7 and can describe their characteristics that would also be helpful.

I think your best bet for now might be to just keep looking at photos of pizzas on the NY style board and hope that you find one with a recipe and good instructions with it or hope that a member whose pizza looks like the ones you posted (photos 4-7) steps forward to provide the recipe used. As noted above, knowing the source of the pizzas that you are after and their characteristics might also be helpful.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline gfgman

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 06:26:41 PM »
I can't tell you exactly where those pizzas come from, but having lived in NJ for 23 years, I know that style of pizza well.  I've always said that if it is not that, it's not pizza, but that's a personal opinion.  The pizza pictured looks exactly like what you'll find on the boardwalk, or in any number of pizza shops on the streets of NY.  The ones where they have all types of pizzas, bolis, garlic bread, etc. on display behind the glass. 
It sounds like she's looking for someone who knows firsthand a dough recipe used by a place like that.  I've been trying to produce such a crust and have been happy with my recipe, particulary without use of oil.  However, using one of the dough calculators to adjust to more salt and less yeast, along with the overnight fermentation will get me there.  Bread flour is a definite improvement compared to all purpose, but a premium flour is the final step. 
What I've picked up from this forum is that, at a bare minimum, a bread machine is needed for mixing, with a regular large kitchen mixer being the best choice, and that an extended period of fermentation will produce the texture and taste that an emergency dough will not. 


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 07:06:40 PM »
GMan,

Here is an example of a pizza made from an "emergency" NY type dough using high-gluten flour, no sugar or oil, and roughly two hours of room temperature fermentation: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2790.msg33188.html#msg33188 (Reply 72). However, the pizza was baked at 700-800 degrees F for about two minutes. With a more typical NY style sauce and cheeses, the pizza might look closer to the target pizzas shown in the opening post of this thread. If I saw the above referenced pizza without knowing its dough formulation and how it was prepared, I wouldn't have been able to tell from the photo how it was made, which was my original point. 

Peter

Offline venividibitchy

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 08:19:28 PM »
venividibitchy,

It is very difficult to reverse engineer pizzas from photos. There are simply too many variables, including the dough formulation used (especially the type of flour and the amounts of sugar and oil, if any), the fermentation protocol (quite likely a one or two day cold fermentation), the type of oven used (most likely a deck oven in the case of the pizzas in photos 4-7), bake time and bake temperature. You appear to be after a thin-crusted pizza with a light-colored, small rim. Thinness is largely a function of amount of dough used for the pizza size. A light colored rim can be produced using any of the basic pizza flours, so the flour shouldn't be a limiting factor. A small rim can be achieved by using a small amount of dough in relation to the pizza size and also by shaping and stretching the skin so that it ends up with a naturally small rim. A low-hydration dough or a long knead that produces a fairly tight and dense dough might also contribute to a small rim.

It might also help if we knew where the pizzas in photos 4-7 came from, particularly if they came from well known pizzerias. Our members have collectively been to many pizza places that specialize in the NY style, including the slice places, so that information might offer some clues. If you actually had the pizzas shown in photos 4-7 and can describe their characteristics that would also be helpful.

I think your best bet for now might be to just keep looking at photos of pizzas on the NY style board and hope that you find one with a recipe and good instructions with it or hope that a member whose pizza looks like the ones you posted (photos 4-7) steps forward to provide the recipe used. As noted above, knowing the source of the pizzas that you are after and their characteristics might also be helpful.

Good luck.

Peter

Hi Pete,

Thank you for your reply.

I'd describe the pizza I'm looking for as this: large, ultra, ultra-thin and floppy slices that are essential to fold and eat with two hands. There is NO other way to eat it. It is thinner still than what the average person would consider a thin pie. It doesn't fall apart as you eat it, nor does it split or crunch during folding. The rim is neither too airy, nor too flat, too gummy or crunchy or soft. There is some chew to it, and it does skirt the rubbery territory, but it's not as if I had microwaved a frozen variety or bought from one of the major chains. The thinness of the slice gives it some leeway in how rubbery it is to the tooth, perhaps. The free edge is moderately thicker and crispier than the center, but it is not the focus of the pizza at all. I've seen an air pocket or two in the rim before, but in no way is the crust ever bready. It is definitely cooked in a brick oven. The crust is lightly-colored, but still golden, with little charring (some minimal charring is usually present). The dough appears throwable and manageable, because I sometimes see them being made. Unfortunately, the folks are usually reticent to give out much information, which is understandable.

The sauce is very, very minimal (the finished color of the pie ending up more of a light orangey/melon color than red), the cheese in a thin, incredibly uniform layer stretching to and fro as you eat it (almost certainly fresh mozz), and an oregano flavor is present. I think I can pull off all of the toppings, if I can just get the recipe for the crust down. I can easily thin down a marinara already, and I've discovered on here a method of how to develop oregano flavor during such short cooking times that I can try.

What I have in mind is not a thin, rustic/home-style NY pizza (like Grimaldi's or Totonno's), but that of any typical Long Island or NYC street side pizza joint. It's the most unpretentious type in the area, to be frank; the kind you'd get when you ask for a "large, regular pie" at 75% of pizzerias in Manhattan or on the island that are not chains. I hope that helps somewhat.

Some places that specifically come to mind are:
Rocco's, St. James, NY,
Cataffo's, Lake Grove, NY,
Station Pizza, Port Jefferson Station, NY,
Umberto's, Lake Grove or New Hyde Park, NY,
Colosseo, Port Jefferson Station, NY,
Ancona, Valley Stream, NY.

GMan,

Here is an example of a pizza made from an "emergency" NY type dough using high-gluten flour, no sugar or oil, and roughly two hours of room temperature fermentation: link (Reply 72). However, the pizza was baked at 700-800 degrees F for about two minutes. With a more typical NY style sauce and cheeses, the pizza might look closer to the target pizzas shown in the opening post of this thread. If I saw the above referenced pizza without knowing its dough formulation and how it was prepared, I wouldn't have been able to tell from the photo how it was made, which was my original point. 

Peter

I think that one pictured is too pillowy, not crispy-looking enough, and too thick of a crust and main slice still.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 08:22:22 PM by venividibitchy »

Offline tdeane

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 08:35:52 PM »
I can't tell you exactly where those pizzas come from, but having lived in NJ for 23 years, I know that style of pizza well.  I've always said that if it is not that, it's not pizza, but that's a personal opinion.  The pizza pictured looks exactly like what you'll find on the boardwalk, or in any number of pizza shops on the streets of NY.  The ones where they have all types of pizzas, bolis, garlic bread, etc. on display behind the glass. 
It sounds like she's looking for someone who knows firsthand a dough recipe used by a place like that.  I've been trying to produce such a crust and have been happy with my recipe, particulary without use of oil.  However, using one of the dough calculators to adjust to more salt and less yeast, along with the overnight fermentation will get me there.  Bread flour is a definite improvement compared to all purpose, but a premium flour is the final step. 
What I've picked up from this forum is that, at a bare minimum, a bread machine is needed for mixing, with a regular large kitchen mixer being the best choice, and that an extended period of fermentation will produce the texture and taste that an emergency dough will not. 


I think you are putting too much importance on flour. I have made NY style pizzas with many different types of flour and honestly, it makes very little differnce. Mixing technique and method of cooking are what make the difference. I would suggest my recipe to you but I'm not sure that it's what you are looking for. I use a sourdough culture for my dough and I'm sure that the places you are talking about probably just use commercial yeast. Although, I honestly feel that my crust is better than any of those walk in slice joints, so you might want to give it a try. I would also suggest looking at Jeff Varasano's website.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 09:34:15 PM by tdeane »

Offline venividibitchy

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 08:49:55 PM »
I can't tell you exactly where those pizzas come from, but having lived in NJ for 23 years, I know that style of pizza well.  I've always said that if it is not that, it's not pizza, but that's a personal opinion.  The pizza pictured looks exactly like what you'll find on the boardwalk, or in any number of pizza shops on the streets of NY.  The ones where they have all types of pizzas, bolis, garlic bread, etc. on display behind the glass. 
It sounds like she's looking for someone who knows firsthand a dough recipe used by a place like that.  I've been trying to produce such a crust and have been happy with my recipe, particulary without use of oil.  However, using one of the dough calculators to adjust to more salt and less yeast, along with the overnight fermentation will get me there.  Bread flour is a definite improvement compared to all purpose, but a premium flour is the final step. 
What I've picked up from this forum is that, at a bare minimum, a bread machine is needed for mixing, with a regular large kitchen mixer being the best choice, and that an extended period of fermentation will produce the texture and taste that an emergency dough will not. 



I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately thinks of this style when I think of pizza. Other types can be delicious, and I enjoy them thoroughly, but it's not what I grew up on.

Yessss, precisely. The places that sell calzones and garlic knots on the side, and do their own great versions of Grandma pizza, eggplant con mellanzana, white pizza, Sicilian pizza, etc. Obviously, those are more types to learn how to make later. For now -- the regular pie.

I've always used light olive oil (extra virgin would be too strong) in my crust. Shoot. In my mind, any kind of fat equals flavor.

I've read that 00 flour won't cook properly in a conventional oven, so I figure I'll find some high-gluten KA or something for my next experiment.

- Less yeast? Is there an ideal percentage? Lehman's says 0.17-0.5% is ideal...kind of a range there. Any length of fermentation would be fine; I'm in no rush. I'll try 24 hours in the fridge next time.
- More than 3% salt?
- Should I be autolyzing/using some variant of a preferment for this style?
- People seem to disagree in various threads about whether the goal is a more hydrated mix, or a less hydrated one. Which?
- At the present, I use a breadmaker on the dough setting, but the whole thing makes me rather hesitant. I'm not quite sure whether the preset cycle is doing what's best for the gluten, or whether any added heat could be affecting the yeast. It's certainly not optimized for pizza, I'm sure. I do have a food processor, but it'd require me to do the dough in batches, because I like big 16+ inch pies. As is, my dough comes out satiny, and looks fine when balled, but once handled, it does tend to tear easily. I can manage to get it into a 16" pan with a fair amount of pinching and piecing on a floured surface, but I'd never be able to turn it on my knuckles.

Sorry for the barrage of questions.

Offline venividibitchy

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 08:58:20 PM »
On another note, someone from another thread got a similar result from stretching a Lehman recipe an extra three inches. He made the recipe for a 13", and stretched to 16".

This could prove promising.

Offline gfgman

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 09:02:27 PM »
I think you are putting too much importance on flour. I have made NY style pizzas with many different types of flour and honestly, it makes very little differnce. Mixing technique and method of cooking are what make the difference. I would suggest my recipe to you but I'm not sure that it's what you are looking for. I use a sourdough culture for my dough and I'm sure that the places you are talking about probably just use commercial yeast. Although, I honestly feel that my crust is better than any of those walk in slice joints, so you might want to give it a try. I would also suggest looking at Jeff Varazano's website.
I use a bread machine to mix, and I think it does a fine job.  However, don't find the dough to be elastic enough.  By that I mean that it stretches too easily.  There is not enough resistance.  It doesn't really spread evenly and tends to break, especially if it is too dry or too wet.  I did put my last batch in the fridge overnight and worked better.  I think something with a higher gluten % will yield a dough that works better; at least in comparison to what I've observed at local pizza shops.
I would argue that any of the pizza shops I really like have a very similar dough formulation with basically the same type of flour.  
Shops that I don't care much for, that have a crust that is different, probably deviate from that formulation.  

GMan

Offline tdeane

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 09:36:25 PM »
I use a bread machine to mix, and I think it does a fine job.  However, don't find the dough to be elastic enough.  By that I mean that it stretches too easily.  There is not enough resistance.  It doesn't really spread evenly and tends to break, especially if it is too dry or too wet.  I did put my last batch in the fridge overnight and worked better.  I think something with a higher gluten % will yield a dough that works better; at least in comparison to what I've observed at local pizza shops.
I would argue that any of the pizza shops I really like have a very similar dough formulation with basically the same type of flour.  
Shops that I don't care much for, that have a crust that is different, probably deviate from that formulation.  

GMan
What kind of flour? How long are you mixing it for? What is the hydration %? How much salt are you using?


Offline gfgman

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 10:36:23 PM »
Quote from: tdeane
What kind of flour? How long are you mixing it for? What is the hydration %? How much salt are you using?
On the last batch, the water was around 64%, slightly over perhaps.  The salt was around 3/4 tsp.  I used to use only a dash of salt, but I upped it according to the Lehmann calculator.  I used to use King Arthur bread flour, but switched to whatever else is sold at the store when the price went way up.  The mixing time is about 30 minutes.  I believe the dough cycle on the bread machine starts at 1:20, and the resting period starts around :50, which is when I pull it a form a ball. 
The last ball came out very smooth and well mixed, but did seem to slightly dry, particularly when I used it the next day.  I already upped the water an ounce or so because the previous ball came out looking like a pile of dry bubble gum pieces.

GMan

Offline s00da

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2009, 01:16:19 AM »
I think I know what venividibitchy is looking for because when I first looked at the pizza slices pictures, Difara's came to my mind as the premium of such class.

Pete and other members have done a great job trying to replicate the crust on http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.0.html

I haven't read it yet but I would assume that in order to stretch a pie this thin, bread flour would be really helpful. From some videos on the Internet, it seems that the pies are will cooked over 2-3 minutes since Dom didn't seem to pay much attention to the oven. I assume we're talking about an oven temperature of around 600. With this temperature and cooking time, the crust would probably become dry but since it's too thin, it won't be too leathery and the moisture from the toppings will compensate.

I hope that helped  :D

Offline tdeane

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2009, 01:50:29 AM »
I think I know what venividibitchy is looking for because when I first looked at the pizza slices pictures, Difara's came to my mind as the premium of such class.

Pete and other members have done a great job trying to replicate the crust on http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.0.html

I haven't read it yet but I would assume that in order to stretch a pie this thin, bread flour would be really helpful. From some videos on the Internet, it seems that the pies are will cooked over 2-3 minutes since Dom didn't seem to pay much attention to the oven. I assume we're talking about an oven temperature of around 600. With this temperature and cooking time, the crust would probably become dry but since it's too thin, it won't be too leathery and the moisture from the toppings will compensate.

I hope that helped  :D

Actually, I would say Dom cooks his pies for more like 5-7 minutes and sometimes even longer. He can do that because of the flour combination he uses. The Caputo pizza flour keeps the pizza from getting to dark with the long cooking time and allows him to get a crispy crust that will stand up to all the cheese and oil he puts on.

Offline Trinity

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2009, 05:25:42 AM »
Look's like he should take a look at my last Chef Boyardee pizza kit post. The big thin slice was just what I was going for. :pizza:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2106.60.html
 
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2009, 12:39:13 PM »
venividibitchy,

I think you framed the issue quite nicely. So, the question becomes how do you use the ingredients available to you and your bread machine (or food processor) and your particular oven to achieve a pizzeria-quality NY style pizza? In Jeff Varasano's case, to which tdeane (Terry) referred, he apparently found it necessary to use a DLX mixer with a special "wet knead" process and multiple rest periods, and a home oven that was modified to defeat the self-clean feature so as to produce bake temperatures in excess of 800 degrees F. In your situation, unless your are prepared to do something along the same lines, you may find that you will have to spend more time on your dough formulation than anything else to see if there is any way of adapting it to your particular pizza making equipment, specifically, to your mixing equipment and oven, to achieve results that will satisfy you.

I agree with Terry that the type of flour used should not be an impediment to what you want to do, especially for a super-thin crust along the lines you wish to achieve. However, in my own case, with my combination of a basic C-hook KitchenAid stand mixer and a basic unmodified electric home oven capable of delivering a maximum oven temperature of around 500-525 degrees F, I found that I got the best results using high-gluten flour or bread flour. If I had to guess, I would say that most NY places making the style of pizza you are after are using bromated flours. Although I have studiously avoided bromated flours, if my goal was to try to replicate an authentic NY style pizza along the lines your are pursuing, I think I would use a bromated flour. In my case, I would perhaps use a bromated bread flour or high-gluten flour. A high-gluten flour would have the added advantage of achieving a stronger gluten structure better capable of retaining the gases of fermentation, and would also add a bit more flavor and chewiness to the crust because of its higher protein content.

There is no doubt in my mind that a bread maker and a food processor can produce very high quality doughs, in many respects better than my KitchenAid stand mixer. I have tried all of the methods--stand mixer, food processor, bread maker, and hand-kneading--and they all work. However, if the predicate to making a proper dough for making pizzas is that the dough be slightly underkneaded, and if it is also an objective to minimize oxidation of the dough and harm to carotenoids that contribute to crumb color and taste, I think that using a stand mixer gives the greatest control. I discussed some of the control issues surrounding the use of a food processor to make NY style dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19291.html#msg19291 and the use of a bread maker to make NY style dough at Reply 51 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 and at Reply 260 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113. I also found that it was possible to hand knead a dough using high-gluten flour if the hydration were made high enough and rest periods were used during the hand kneading process. However, even if the mixing issues are resolved, however that is done, there still remains the issue of getting enough heat out of a standard home oven without altering it in some fashion to get higher bake temperatures.

Against the above backdrop, when I look at my own situation, that means that I would have to look at possible dough formulations to produce the desired results. I have used autolyse and I have used natural starters and many types of preferments, both natural and those based on using commercial yeast or combinations of natural starters and commercial yeast. I personally found that autolyse produced a too-breadlike crumb for my taste but that starters and preferments produced high quality results in terms of crust flavor, color and crumb texture. But, with my oven, I am not sure that those applications would allow me to produce pizzas like you want to make. Moreover, before heading in any of those directions, and since it is highly doubtful that the typical NY style pizza operator is using these elegant solutions, I think that I would at least take a shot at a more direct approach.

So, I think that if I were to experiment with a NY pizzeria-style dough formulation that might work in my home oven using a pizza stone preheated to the oven's maximum temperature, I would perhaps use a bromated high-protein flour (bread flour or high-gluten flour), with a high hydration (maybe between 60-65%), a thickness factor of around 0.065-0.07 as a starting value, an amount of dough to make a 14" pizza (the largest my pizza stone can accommodate) and shaped to have a very small rim, a fair amount of oil to achieve softness and flexibility in the finished crust (possibly around 3%), and shoot for a short bake time so that the dough doesn't dry out and become cracker-like and/or develop too much crust color. I would sift the flour to improve its hydration, use no sugar, and salt would be at normal levels, around 1.75% for my palate. If I elected to use a non-bromated flour, I would perhaps use a pinch of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in the dough for dough strengthening purposes. I would use IDY at about 0.50-0.60% and a one-day cold fermentation. Under the above conditions, I would expect the dough to be fairly extensible. It is also possible that I would use some of the methods I used at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html, particularly the use of a combination of whisk, flat beater and C-hook attachments, in order to produce a better quality dough out of my KitchenAid stand mixer. 

I have no idea if or how well the above dough formulation and protocol would work. Usually, it takes a few tries to prove out the process or to refute it.

Peter

Offline tdeane

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2009, 03:10:41 PM »
I agree with Peter, except that I would leave out the oil and increase the salt to maybe 2.5%. I would also guess that the places you like are more than likely using a room temperature rise with a perhaps a little more yeast than Pete suggested. I personally would use a preferment but I highly doubt any of the places you mentioned use one. My guess is that most just use fresh yeast or idy, hg flour(bread flour will work fine), salt and water. With some using oil although I don't think it's necessary and places like Di Fara don't use it. I would also guess that most of those places are using a less wet dough than many of the better NY places do. If you watch guys at those places handle the dough, I would guess it's around 60% hydration, maybe even less. I would also say that most of the places you are talking about are probably baking at below 600 degrees, so your home oven at 550 will do just fine.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2009, 04:43:07 PM »
Terry,

You make some good points. I was hedging a bit on the hydration-oil combination until I get a better feel because I know from past experiments using fair amounts of oil that it does affect the viscosity of the dough, and can make it soft and more fluid, which will ultimately affect the extensibility of the dough. As for a room temperature rise, I would use a rest period before refrigerating the dough. I perhaps would have caught that as I finished making the dough. Thanks for reminding me.

In my reading, I have found that it is rare for professional pizza operators to use hydrations of over 60% and almost unheard of to use 65%, even for high-gluten flours that might accept that degree of hydration. Hydration ranges tend to be around 55-59%, for just about all flours. At those levels, the dough is easier for workers to work with. I would use a higher hydration mainly because of my oven's shortcomings, not because of handing issues. The yeast level was chosen mainly because of the high hydration, which would cause the dough to ferment faster. I also did not want the crust to expand too much. However, this is an area where one can experiment once the early results are in. You are correct that fresh yeast is an option, but one that I have not been able to do much with because it is not sold in the supermarkets near me. I would have to seek out a baker near me, of which there are almost none. If anything, I have noticed that many bakers have gone to IDY.

Peter

Offline tdeane

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2009, 05:27:50 PM »
Terry,

You make some good points. I was hedging a bit on the hydration-oil combination until I get a better feel because I know from past experiments using fair amounts of oil that it does affect the viscosity of the dough, and can make it soft and more fluid, which will ultimately affect the extensibility of the dough. As for a room temperature rise, I would use a rest period before refrigerating the dough. I perhaps would have caught that as I finished making the dough. Thanks for reminding me.

In my reading, I have found that it is rare for professional pizza operators to use hydrations of over 60% and almost unheard of to use 65%, even for high-gluten flours that might accept that degree of hydration. Hydration ranges tend to be around 55-59%, for just about all flours. At those levels, the dough is easier for workers to work with. I would use a higher hydration mainly because of my oven's shortcomings, not because of handing issues. The yeast level was chosen mainly because of the high hydration, which would cause the dough to ferment faster. I also did not want the crust to expand too much. However, this is an area where one can experiment once the early results are in. You are correct that fresh yeast is an option, but one that I have not been able to do much with because it is not sold in the supermarkets near me. I would have to seek out a baker near me, of which there are almost none. If anything, I have noticed that many bakers have gone to IDY.

Peter
Yeah it gets a little tough handling a wet dough when it gets busy, but I am getting a lot better at it. I would guess my dough is somewhere between 65-67%. I also, don't see much use in using fresh yeast as it tastes exactly the same as idy(imo)and is much less practical. I mentioned it only because I know that Dom uses it. I have had to make emergency dough a couple of times since we have been open and by "emergency" I mean for the next day not for in a few hours. I usually make dough a couple of days in advance. What I did in that case was make the dough as i normally do, but then left it sitting out at room temperature for a few hours before putting it in the cooler. It was perfect the next day and I didn't notice any difference in flavor or texture. I am beginning to feel that a long cold fermentation period is unnecessary and does not improve flavor or texture that much. Especially with the sourdough culture i am using which is incredibly active. It's a great starter with great flavor for pizza. Peter, I should send you some if you have time to activate another starter and if I can find the time to dry some. Let me know if you are interested. I guess I am kind of rambling and this should probably be posted somewhere else.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:32:29 PM by tdeane »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2009, 06:13:07 PM »
I made a 14" thin New York style pizza based on my earlier proposal, but with salt at the level suggested by tdeane (Terry). Top and bottom slice photos are shown below. The dough was made using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, allowed to rest for about an hour at room temperature, and was then fermented for 27 hours in the refrigerator. The dressed pizza (basic thin tomato sauce and diced low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese) was baked on a first pizza stone with a second stone above it. To get a higher temperature for the first (bottom) stone, I removed the bottom rack from the oven and placed the first stone on some pieces of brick that raised the stone above the bottom coil but closer to it than when the stone is placed on the lowest oven rack. Doing this, I was able to get a temperature range for the bottom stone of 625-650 degrees F. The pizza was baked for 6 minutes. It had a chewy crust, crisp bottom and was foldable. The rim was formed to be as small as I could make it when shaping the dough. The dough itself handled very nicely, with a good balance between elasticity and extensibility. I was even able to toss the skin, as thin as it was. I have the dough formulation and additional details if venividibitchy is interested.

Peter

Offline tdeane

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Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2009, 06:34:06 PM »
Looks like a NY slice. Good job Peter.