Author Topic: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)  (Read 6669 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2009, 07:35:17 PM »
Peter,

I have been following this thread with great interest in regards to your attempt of creating a NYC-style pizza and getting member venividibitchy where he wants to be.

In the last two to three weeks I have been concentrating on NY-style pizzas because I'll be having a little Pizza get-together in April and there will be a few people present from the East Coast, and a couple from NYC specifically. It would be great if you could share your formula, mainly for comparison purposes.

So, by all means, please do post it.  :chef:

Here's my latest attempt at a plain cheese pie. The rim turned out a bit puffier than yours. It was baked for about 8 mins at 600 F.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 07:41:19 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21679
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2009, 08:41:10 PM »
Mike,

Your pizza looks fine and may not need improvement. But I will leave to you to decide whether the NY style I "designed" is suitable for your purposes.

For my purposes, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (tap) (62%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (2.5%):
Classico Light Olive Oil (3%):
Total (168.1%):
186.27 g  |  6.57 oz | 0.41 lbs
115.49 g  |  4.07 oz | 0.25 lbs
1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.66 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
5.59 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
313.13 g | 11.05 oz | 0.69 lbs | TF = 0.07175
Note: For one 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.07; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%; a pinch of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) was used

To prepare the dough, I started by sifting the KABF and stirring in the IDY and a pinch of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). I then added the water, directly from the tap, to the mixer bowl of my KitchenAid stand mixer, and stirred in the salt to dissolve, about 30 seconds. With the whisk attachment secured, and with the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the flour mixture, a few tablespoons at a time, to the mixer bowl. I did this until the whisk attachment started to bog down as it combined and mixed the ingredients, which took place after about 3/4 of the flour mixture had been added. I then scraped the dough off of the whisk attachment and switched to the flat beater attachment. With the mixer still at stir speed, I added the remaining flour mixture and kneaded the dough until all of the flour mixture was incorporated, about 1-2 minutes. I then added the oil and kneaded the dough until all of the oil was incorporated, about 1 minute. I then switched to the C-hook and, with the mixer operating at speed 2, kneaded the dough for about 5 minutes.

At this point, the dough was removed from the mixer bowl and hand kneaded for about a minute to shape into a round ball. The finished dough weight was 10.86 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 70 degrees F. The dough ball was soft, smooth and elastic. I coated the dough ball with a bit of oil, placed two poppy seeds spaced apart by one inch (to monitor the expansion in accordance with http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html), and put the dough ball into an open container. The dough was allowed to rest for about an hour at room temperature before I covered the container and placed it into the refrigerator. During its stay in the refrigerator, I periodically monitored its volume expansion. After 7 hours, the dough had risen by about 20%; after 22 hours, the dough had risen by about 95%; after 24 hours, the dough had doubled (100%). While the oven and pizza stones were preheating, the dough was allowed to warm up at room temperature, lightly coated with flour, for about 1 1/2 hours. I then shaped and formed the dough into a thin skin. The dough itself was of good quality, of uniform thickness, and easy to work with. I had no difficulty in shaping and stretching the skin to 14" while keeping the rim of very smal size. In fact, I pressed the rim down to be sure that it wouldn't expand too much during the bake.

As previously noted, I used two pizza stones and a stone/oven arrangement that allowed me to get a lower stone temperature of around 625-650 degrees F. The pizza was baked for about six minutes on the bottom stone.

Since the above effort was my first for such a thin NY style with the characteristics previously noted, it is unlikely that I hit paydirt the very first time out. So this suggests some room for improvement. For the next iteration, I think that I would use a slightly greater thickness factor, maybe 0.08, and a higher hydration, say, 64%. As an alternative to the higher hydration, I would consider a longer fermentation time, maybe 2 days, mainly for better crust flavor development. In terms of the bake, I think that I would try using only the bottom stone, arranged as previously described, and use a lower oven temperature, maybe around 600 degrees F. I might add that I found that the second stone shadowed the pizza on the lower stone and obstructed my view of the pizza while it was baking. So, I would prefer to avoid having to use the second stone.

In venividibitchy's case, he or she may choose to use a food processor or bread maker to make the dough in lieu of using a stand mixer, which may not be available.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2009, 10:08:20 PM »
Peter,

Thanks so much for your elaborate description of your version of a NYC-style dough and the formula. In regards of hitting paydirt with it, well I don't know if I did hit it with mine, either. I'll find out during that get-together.

Here's the formula for above posted pizza:

397 gr. KABF (100%)
246 gr. Water (62%)
2 gr. ADY (0.5%)
6 gr. Salt (1.5%)
6 gr. Evoo (1.5%)

24hr counter-rise, 325 gr. single ball for a 14" pizza. Baked at 600 F on the lowest rack.

I think it needs some tweaking here and there, but so far I liked the outcome. I'll definitely give yours a shot over the weekend.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21679
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2009, 10:16:10 PM »
Mike,

What room temperature do you have that allows you to ferment a dough with 0.50% ADY for 24 hours without overfermenting? What kind of volume expansion have you been getting over 24 hours and how many punchdowns?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 10:18:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2009, 10:56:09 PM »
Mike,

What room temperature do you have that allows you to ferment a dough with 0.50% ADY for 24 hours without overfermenting? What kind of volume expansion have you been getting over 24 hours and how many punchdowns?

Peter

Peter,

It's not very warm here in Northern Cali right now so I guess that my kitchen was at around 60 - 65 F. I'm not a big fan of very warm homes. I did one punch down at the 12 hr mark, let it rise again for 9 hrs and then divided that dough into two balls. I let them rise again for the next 3 hours under a damp towel before I used them.

In terms of the volume expansion, it doubled, maybe a bit more, before I punched it down.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2009, 11:18:19 PM »
It's not very warm here in Northern Cali right now so I guess that my kitchen was at around 60 - 65 F. I'm not a big fan of very warm homes. I did one punch down at the 12 hr mark, let it rise again for 9 hrs and then divided that dough into two balls. I let them rise again for the next 3 hours under a damp towel before I used them.

In terms of the volume expansion, it doubled, maybe a bit more, before I punched it down.

By my rough calculations the dough would have expanded to 360% of the original size in 12 hours, even at 60 F.  That's pretty different from 200%.

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2009, 11:23:29 PM »
RN,

I'm not surprised that you'd chime in.  ;)

I really don't know what else to tell you other than that was exactly the way I did it.

Perhaps the yeast wasn't the freshest since I have it for some time now, roughly six months, and it endured a recent move to a new place. I do had it stored and still store it in the freezer, though.

Come to think of it, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, stop by and I'll make that dough again. I just bought a nice and comfy new couch, so there's a place for you to crash.  8)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 11:26:12 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2009, 11:28:04 PM »
Perhaps the yeast wasn't the freshest since I have it for some time now, roughly six months, and it endured a recent move to a new place. I do had it stored and still store it in the freezer, though.

Ah!  Subjected to six months of torturous conditions in the Siberian wasteland.  Never let it be said that yeast like the cold.

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2009, 11:30:51 PM »
I thought that's what everyone recommends to prolong the life of yeast...freezer storage, no?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21679
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2009, 11:32:28 PM »
Mike,

What November says is more in line with what I would have expected. When I saw your dough formulation, it reminded me of the Amici's clone dough formulation that I described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6313.msg54156.html#msg54156. I used a high protein all-purpose flour, IDY, but no oil. The dough was made in February of last year when it was cold, with a room temperature like yours. As noted in the above thread, the dough went through a doubling after 12 hours and two subsequent triplings, up to 22 hours. The dough still performed well and the pizza was very good.

Peter


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2009, 11:43:12 PM »
Peter,

I have had Amici's before and wasn't really that impressed with their product. But then again, it was delivery. However, Amici's opened a new, bigger place on Lombard Street in the Marina District of San Francisco, and when you drive by, you can see three or four ovens sporting a gas fire. Looks like a wood-fired oven.

Anyway, I used the Lehmann dough calculator for that particular formula a few weeks ago and kept tweaking it here and there. As I told RN, I really don't know what else to tell you other than what I already described. My only guess is that the yeast perhaps lost some of its "power", if you will. The crust was still very light, chewy and had a nice crunch to it.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 11:45:03 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2009, 11:54:52 PM »
I thought that's what everyone recommends to prolong the life of yeast...freezer storage, no?

I wouldn't say everyone recommends it.  Lots of people recommend it, but even then yeast don't live on recommendations.  In order for freezing to be successful, there are several conditions that must be met.  One involves having minimal freeze-thaw cycles, limiting it to only one cycle if possible.  Another is avoiding all moisture all the time.  Even a little bit of moisture exposure during taking the yeast out to measure out a portion can be problematic if repeated many times.  Yet another is making sure the yeast comes to room temperature in a completely dry state before trying to rehydrate it.  If everything is handled perfectly, the yeast will be fine.  I have yet to see in tests that I have performed zero effects of frozen ADY though.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21679
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2009, 12:01:55 AM »
Mike,

Originally, I thought that the real Amici's dough was entirely room-temperature fermented. But even with a minuscule amount of yeast, 9/100 of a teaspoon of IDY, in a cold February, for roughly the same amount of dough you made, my dough went crazy. It was my experience with the Amici's clone dough that led me to do a lot more experimenting with room-temperature fermented doughs. Ultimately, I found that I could use as little as 1/100 of a teaspoon of IDY and have the dough make it out to about 18 hours before punching it down (I then let it rise again for about 5 more hours). That was a summer dough. For a winter dough, I might need about 2/100 of a teaspoon of IDY. I think you can now see why the performance of your dough with so much more yeast puzzled me.

Peter

Offline s00da

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 468
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2009, 01:36:18 AM »
Essen1,

Do you think you dough might have already blew up from ~300% to 200% by the time you punched it down?

I'm not underestimating your judgment, just guessing possible causes here  :)

Pete,

Your pie looks great! I also think that if it was a 16"+, it would've even look better. I think the size of NYC-style slices is one of the main characteristics. I'm also limited to my 14"x16" stone so I can't go beyond the 14". Lastweekend I got myself some firebricks so I can achieve bigger pies.

I would like to try your NYC-style recipe but would like your feedback on the following before I start:

1- Did you go with a specific regimen in regard to fermentation to achieve a dough that better suits NYC-style pizza? and how do your steps contribute to that?
2- Can I assume that since NYC-style are baked at 600-650 degrees, the dough will always need olive oil to avoid a excessive dryness of the crust?

By the way, you didn't post an image showing the thickness of the slice. How would you compare it to the slices posted in the image of the original post?

s00da

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21679
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2009, 10:16:06 AM »
saad,

I agree that a larger size pizza would be more representative of the NY style. One possibility that occurred to me is to assemble an 18" pizza on an 18" pizza screen and bake the pizza as so assembled directly on the lower (and possibly the only) stone and remove the screen once the pizza sets up, or toward the end of the bake, so that the pizza is then directly on the stone and can get crispy and more bottom color. This latter technique is one that some pizza operators use with deck ovens.

As far as the fermentation regimen is concerned, I tried to keep it as simple as I could, much as I imagine a typical NY pizza operator would. I designed the dough formulation to give me about one day of cold fermentation, with the goal of the dough doubling in volume by that time. I got lucky because the dough ended up doubling after about 24 hours, almost to the minute. I wish I could take credit for such precision, but it was largely an intuitive guess on my part on the amount of yeast to use based on past experience. I also gave the dough about one-hour bench time before putting it in the refrigerator, to help the dough to start fermenting. Many pizza operators cross stack their trays of dough balls in their coolers for a certain period (usually an hour or so) and then down stack them in the coolers for the duration of their fermentation. I know that some members try to do something similar in a home setting for a dough ball or two, but I did not try to simulate what the professionals do with so few dough balls.

In my case, I was also using tap water, as I imagine most NYC pizza operators do, although their water may go through some purification process. So, I did not try to temperature control the water to achieve a particular finished dough temperature. After making the pizza, I thought that a two-day fermentation period might produce more crust flavor. One way to do that would be to use cooler water and use less yeast. However, I perhaps would first see if the existing dough formulation itself permits the longer fermentation. All I was trying to do for the first effort was to provide some guidance to venividibitchy to allow him or her to get started if what I did had any appeal to him/her.

It is difficult to say whether oil will always be needed to avoid excessive dryness. Ultimately, it all comes down to trying to marry the particular dough formulation and what you want it to do with the particular oven and oven arrangement you use, including pizza stones, their locations, etc. Using a high hydration and a fast bake time on a very hot stone might alone produce the the degree of softness desired without needing to use any oil. But a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time might call for use of some oil. In my case, despite the high lower stone temperature, I did not save much in bake time, maybe a minute or so. So that suggests that I might need some oil in the dough to get some crust softness. In another oven with a different configuration, the oil might not be necessary. If I were to move the "project" to the next stage, I would perhaps at some point just make a test dough without any oil and see what I get.

I will see if I saved a slice from the pizza to take a photo to show the slice on edge. However, there was not much thickness to the crust. It was light from the standpoint of weight but not light in the sense of having a lot of alveoles to create an open and airy effect. One of the reasons why I suggested the possibility of using a larger thickness factor was to address that issue. I am guessing on that one because I would have to see an actual NY street slice to get a better idea as to what my target should be on that point. Another possibility might be to incorporate an autolyse into the dough making process. I was hoping to avoid doing that because it is not something that a NY pizza operator would be likely to do. As you can see, it is all about identifying issues and looking for solutions.

On the point you raised with Mike about his dough's behavior, it is not usually a good sign for the dough to fall after it has peaked. It usually isn't fatal if the dough is used fairly promptly thereafter but if one waits too long the dough performance will usually suffer.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2009, 10:40:48 PM »
s00da,

I don't think I misjudged how the dough performed. I've made too many pizzas in the past. Like I said, I seriously believe the yeast was the culprit unless, though, I made a mistake when measuring. But my digital scale's usually pretty accurate.

However, the "strange' batch yielded two pies and here's a picture sequence from the second pizza.

As you can see, the two dough balls - after a counter-rest of roughly three hours - have not risen as much as my other ones usually do. The crust itself also didn't yield a lot of oven spring in the rim.

Btw, I tried a new cheese mix...North Beach Mozzarella (low-moisture, part-skim) and Polly-O. 16oz and 8oz respectively. It was a nice combo and melted perfectly.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 10:43:53 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2009, 04:29:39 AM »
Mike,

Do you always put your dough balls so close together?  How far apart were the balls at the start of the three hour rest, because if you're saying they didn't rise as much as usual, it would seem that your "usual" balls would be climbing over each other.

- red.november

Offline s00da

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 468
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2009, 05:43:03 AM »
Essen1,

Actually the oven spring of your pie is really nice in proportion to the pie size and how far the sauce is applied to the dough. Looks perfect.

If you suspect a weird performance in terms of spring and rise then there could be a fermentation issue. Also, looking at the amount of IDY you use, your fermentation process and how November reacted to it  ::), I would suggest getting yourself a new IDY. Who knows, maybe something is wrong there and it's also cheap  :D

s00da

Offline s00da

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 468
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2009, 06:03:51 AM »
Peter,

The pizza screen method is really clever. I never thought about it before but transferring from the screen to the stone might result in an inconsistent bottom browning where the stone is not in contact with the pizza...but I guess that's what we have. Good idea nonetheless  :) But why don't you replace the stone with a set of firebricks to get the most out of your oven space?

Now I understand that you basically came up with a method to simulate a big scale pizza operator and you covered all the points. Short fermentation time with IDY and using tap water. I think you actually thought of creating the NYC-style by following the methods they use as the tradition of making an NYC-style pizza which is very thoughtful. I salute your approach  ;D but I have to say that using an autolyse period would deviate from your approach since you're trying to recreate the same pizza using the same simple methods of an NY street pizza operator.

I agree on the use of olive oil. Again it's all relative to the oven used and temperature. Whatever gets you to the final result.

Will attempt your method and let you know how it comes out. My oven is very different from anything else you guys are using but very easy to control.


s00da



Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Which NY style recipe would you recommend? (Pictures included)
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2009, 07:11:18 AM »
Also, looking at the amount of IDY you use

Mike is using ADY, not IDY.