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[s00da]

Thanks Giotto and Pete, I shouldn't have missed this fact. I already know that sourdough cultures with low hydration produce more acetic acid which will contribute to the strength of the gluten structure. It just didn't occur to me that the same applies when using commercial yeast.

Saad

[Essen1]

It will be interesting to see if the organic sugar produces comparable results with the Hi-protein flour as with the bread flour.

Peter,

Unfortunately it didn't.

I didn't see much of a difference in regards to crust browning between the regular sugar and the organic type when I used the Hi-protein flour from Giusto's. KABF is a different story, though. I always had good results in combination with the organic sugar.

[bluesman]

Peter,

Unfortunately it didn't.

I didn't see much of a difference in regards to crust browning between the regular sugar and the organic type when I used the Hi-protein flour from Giusto's. KABF is a different story, though. I always had good results in combination with the organic sugar.

That pizza looks fantastic.

What was your dough formulation?

[Essen1]

That pizza looks fantastic.

What was your dough formulation?

Bluesman,

Thanks.

I used this one here (it's a flour hybrid, if you will):

707 gr. KABF/Giusto’s Flour   100%
452 gr. Water (warm)       64%
18 gr. fine sea salt               2.5%
12 gr. garli-infused olive oil    1.7%
11 gr. organic sugar       1.5%
4 gr. IDY                          0.6%

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg76653.html#msg76653

CORRECTION: It was this formula...

681 gr. Giusto’s   -    100%
436 gr. Water      -      64%
  13 gr. Salt      -        2%
  10 gr. Oil      -     1.5%
    8 gr. Sugar      -        1%
    2 gr. IDY      -     0.3%

Single ball : 287 gr.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg80198.html#msg80198

Sorry for the confusion!

[Essen1]

Peter,

You might be interested in hearing this.

Remember when I tried to re-create the Marcello's crust, a NY-style pizza joint here in SF and one of my favorites? Well, we did some more work for them and I just got finished talking pizza with her. It was interesting what she had to say but the main thing about her dough that she stressed was the water temperature and amount. Another thing she mentioned was that her dough is tailored to her oven. Her dough, she said, wouldn't probably turn out as good if she'd use a regular deck oven. She said that each oven is different whether it's a gas deck oven, WFO , rotating oven or electric and no dough behaves the same in all of those mentioned. She said to keep that in mind when working with my home oven and my own dough formula. Her point is that the dough should be made for the specific oven that's used and not vice versa.

She also mentioned me that she has a thermometer inside the kitchen that measures the air temp and she adjusts the water temp and amount in the dough accordingly.

Anyway, that's not what I'm excited about. I got invited to try my own NY-style dough formula in her Rotoflex oven and also to make a pie, using her dough and getting a peek behind the scenes of her pizza place.

If you have any suggestions or things I should ask about, let me know. 

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I would just try to soak up as much as possible. And have fun. That's a great opportunity. I look forward to your report.

Peter

[s00da]

Yes sir, and you better be detailed on the inside operations 

This is seriously awesome. I get from your previous posts that this pizza place is a successful one. I'm sure this is gonna be a great experience to learn the different things being done in a large-scale operation. A different animal I'm sure.

One thing I wish I can evaluate for myself is: Can any dough recipe be adapted to a commercial scale? and what are the constraints?

Saad

[Essen1]

Mike,

I would just try to soak up as much as possible. And have fun. That's a great opportunity. I look forward to your report.

Peter

Peter,

I will. I was honestly surprised by her offer. And by 'her', I mean Luc, the owner of Marcello's. She apparently grew up in New York and just does the pizza style she enjoyed in NYC.

I have to call her to set up a date when I could come in to try my dough since she's not always there during the day. Luc also told me that if her employees make the dough, 400 lbs each morning, and it is not to her liking, she throws the entire batch out and starts over. Sounds like she's quite serious about it 

Yes sir, and you better be detailed on the inside operations 

This is seriously awesome. I get from your previous posts that this pizza place is a successful one. I'm sure this is gonna be a great experience to learn the different things being done in a large-scale operation. A different animal I'm sure.

One thing I wish I can evaluate for myself is: Can any dough recipe be adapted to a commercial scale? and what are the constraints?

Saad

Saad,

Marcello's is extremely busy. I've been there only during lunch so far but I have heard that it gets quite packed around dinner time and especially after 2:00am, when all the bars are closing in that area.

However, it's a great opportunity and I'll make sure that I gather as much info as I can. I will definitely report back on that experience.

[NY pizzastriver]

However, it's a great opportunity and I'll make sure that I gather as much info as I can. I will definitely report back on that experience.

Yeah yeah, bla bla bla, just make some more good NY pies and show us the cool pics! 

[Essen1]

Yeah yeah, bla bla bla, just make some more good NY pies and show us the cool pics! 

Ja-Jimbo,

That must be "Jurzee" or is it "Joisey"(?) speak for "Shut up already", right??

Well, what ever it means, I'll take it as an "El cumplido" as my GF would say. By the way, she makes killer Albondigas. They're a money maker. Anyway, I digress and it's none of your business anyway, NYPS! 



Over the weekend, I decided to give the standard Lehmann formula a shot, not because I was bored but merely out of curiosity since I have actually never used his dough formula. Well, at least not knowingly. I made enough dough for four dough balls at 374 gr. each for a 14" pie. They were baked for 8 mins at 600° F with an additional minute under the broiler in my home oven. Click the link below and you'll see the main reason why I wasn't able to use the LBE recently, except for one lonely time a couple of weeks ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMwOwH0pWD0

I did mess around with the flour a bit, though. I combined Stone-Buhr BF and KABF at a 50/50 ratio, used a water temp of 95°F to get to a finished dough temp of around 80°F. I followed Lehmann's mixing regimen, except I mixed for 15 mins after a 20 min autolyse, which I believe he doesn't do. But other than that, the finished crust was very good. I really liked the lightness and foldability of it. And I was also surprised by the flour combo. I'd like to believe that it added to or perhaps even amplified the crunchy and chewy character. The first pie was an all-cheese and the second one was a spinach, ham and garlic one (a bit heavy on the toppings, though)

I'm going to fiddle around with this formula a bit more and might adjust a variable or two.

897 g KABF/SBBF        100%
556 g Water @ 95°F    62%
16 g Kosher salt          1.75%
12 g organic sugar      1.33%
9 g   Oil                           1%
4.5g IDY                          .5%

Single ball: 374 gr.

[Pete-zza]

One thing I wish I can evaluate for myself is: Can any dough recipe be adapted to a commercial scale? and what are the constraints?

Saad,

That is actually a very good question, and is one that comes up from time to time (I have also gotten PMs on the subject). It is easy to mathematically scale a recipe up to a commercial dough batch size, but the dough may be different. I attribute it to the fact that a home mixer is not the same as a commercial mixer, especially in relation to hydration and gluten development. Also, a dough recipe adapted to a home oven may not adapt in the same way to a commercial oven. Pizza operators often encounter these issues when they try to adapt an experimental or test dough recipe using their home mixer and oven to a commercial environment. They usually end up having to play around with the commercial version of the recipe.

Similar issues would most likely exist if Mike were able to get the Marcello's dough commercial dough recipe and try to scale it down for home use.

Peter

[Essen1]

Similar issues would most likely exist if Mike were able to get the Marcello's dough commercial dough recipe and try to scale it down for home use.

Peter,

I am not sure I'll be able to obtain that recipe. I will certainly keep my eyes more than peeled and see if I can get any other info out of the owner regarding her dough management and recipe. But to get the recipe would be just icing on the cake. 


On another note, I forgot to mention in my previous post that I did follow the Lehmann dough procedure, or management I should say, to the "T", as described here:

The dough temperature should be between 80 and 85F. Immediately divide the dough into desired weight pieces and round into balls. Wipe the dough balls with salad oil, and place into plastic dough boxes. Make sure that the dough balls are spaced about 2 inches apart. Cross stack the uncovered dough boxes in the cooler for 2 hours as this will allow the dough balls to cool down thoroughly, and uniformly. The dough boxes can then be nested, with the top box being covered. This will prevent excessive drying of the dough balls.

The dough balls will be ready to use after about 12 hours of refrigeration. They can be used after up to 72 hours of refrigeration with good results. To use the dough balls, remove a quantity from the cooler and allow them to warm at room temperature for approximately 2-3 hours. The dough can then be shaped into skins, or shaped into pans for proofing. Unused dough can remain at room temperature (covered to prevent drying) for up to 6 hours after removal from the cooler.

I used a 20hr cold rise and then a 3hr room-temp rise before opening and dressing the skins.

[NY pizzastriver]

That must be "Jurzee" or is it "Joisey"(?) speak for "Shut up already", right??

Well, what ever it means, I'll take it as an "El cumplido" as my GF would say. By the way, she makes killer Albondigas.

No man, lol, not shut up per se. I knew my comments would inspire you to again create your magnificent works. Was I wrong? There's a soul not whom could differ when sighting the above, I do so declare. Nice ones man, looks more like a 60 hour rise, and bigger than 14".

So I looked these up, this food you speak of, and it turns out it's really an Italian dish called "meatballs". Lol. I never tried them but must say they sounds great. Does she use raisin, olive, and replace bread crumbs with soaked bread lika deese?
http://peru-recipes.com/2008/09/albondigas-meatballs#more-319

Love the video, priceless in the fact you taped the rain and actually you tube'd. It just shows how mad and disappointed you really were that day. 

[Essen1]

Thanks for the cumplido! It really was just 20 hrs. But I got to say that I really like the flour combination I used. I'll be making another batch for the weekend, using the same formula to see if it wasn't just an accident.

So I looked these up, this food you speak of, and it turns out it's really an Italian dish called "meatballs".

You got it all wrong, brother.

Albondigas actually originated in Poland and were created by a guy named Al Bondiezcwski. 

Anyway, my GF uses two types of ground meat, turkey & beef. No raisins and no olives. Bread crumbs, yes, and some rice.

Check this one here:

http://simplyrecipes.com/recipes/albondigas_soup/

It's close to what my GF makes.

[NY pizzastriver]

Ah yes, the "meatballs in soup" version. As you can see below when we first invented it we simply called it "Italian Wedding Soup". 

Just kidding, looks great and thanks for the recipe!

[Essen1]

As you can see below when we first invented it we simply called it "Italian Wedding Soup".

I didn't know you were Polish??? 

[pizzablogger]

Saad,

That is actually a very good question, and is one that comes up from time to time (I have also gotten PMs on the subject). It is easy to mathematically scale a recipe up to a commercial dough batch size, but the dough may be different. I attribute it to the fact that a home mixer is not the same as a commercial mixer, especially in relation to hydration and gluten development. Also, a dough recipe adapted to a home oven may not adapt in the same way to a commercial oven. Pizza operators often encounter these issues when they try to adapt an experimental or test dough recipe using their home mixer and oven to a commercial environment. They usually end up having to play around with the commercial version of the recipe.

Similar issues would most likely exist if Mike were able to get the Marcello's dough commercial dough recipe and try to scale it down for home use.

Peter

Peter, excellent points.

Another issue often encountered with taking smaller sized test batches or home recipes and translating them into much larger retail/commercial sized batches, particularly when a cold ferment is to be employed, is the impact of the insular qualities of a very large bulk mass of dough on the fermentation process.

A home or small test batch which may take x amount of time to cool down and slow the yeast down will most likely take longer to cool down as dough batch sizes get larger and larger. The large volume of the dough can act as an insulator which causes the interior mass of the dough to take longer to cool down than may be anticipated, which of course can mean the yeast may be much farther along than you may think when dividing the bulk mass into individual balls and allowing them to proof/warm-up prior to opening and forming skins.....potentially causing more of the freed-up sugars to be consumed by the yeast and not be available for flavor and caramelizing at the time of firing the pizza than anticipated.

When I worked at the bakery this was often a known issue when translating a test sized batch into a full scale recipe large enough to satisfy the number of loaves to be eventually created. Of course, adjustments to the amount of yeast the dough was inoculated with and/or the temperature of the water used when mixing the dough were the most common ways to account for this (not to mention a possible "turn" or gentle mix of the dough early in the process to better equalize the temperatures throughout the bulk mass), but this is just one of many small, but potentially impactful, aspects of applying a small sized recipe to a larger scale deal.

[Essen1]

Peter, excellent points.

Another issue often encountered with taking smaller sized test batches or home recipes and translating them into much larger retail/commercial sized batches, particularly when a cold ferment is to be employed, is the impact of the insular qualities of a very large bulk mass of dough on the fermentation process.

A home or small test batch which may take x amount of time to cool down and slow the yeast down will most likely take longer to cool down as dough batch sizes get larger and larger. The large volume of the dough can act as an insulator which causes the interior mass of the dough to take longer to cool down than may be anticipated, which of course can mean the yeast may be much farther along than you may think when dividing the bulk mass into individual balls and allowing them to proof/warm-up prior to opening and forming skins.....potentially causing more of the freed-up sugars to be consumed by the yeast and not be available for flavor and caramelizing at the time of firing the pizza than anticipated.

When I worked at the bakery this was often a known issue when translating a test sized batch into a full scale recipe large enough to satisfy the number of loaves to be eventually created. Of course, adjustments to the amount of yeast the dough was inoculated with and/or the temperature of the water used when mixing the dough were the most common ways to account for this (not to mention a possible "turn" or gentle mix of the dough early in the process to better equalize the temperatures throughout the bulk mass), but this is just one of many small, but potentially impactful, aspects of applying a small sized recipe to a larger scale deal.

Great point, PB!

But would it make a difference if you ball the dough up right when the it comes out of the mixing bowl and store the individual dough balls in a cooler?

[pizzablogger]

Great point, PB!

But would it make a difference if you ball the dough up right when the it comes out of the mixing bowl and store the individual dough balls in a cooler?

It may or it may not.....my guess is there will be subtle differences. As Peter already mentioned, the mixer itself could cause slight variations. Another consideration is what type of cooler will you be using; a large, double doored self standing stand up refrigerator type unit or will you be using a walk-in? Both of these are larger than a standard home refrigerator and, while likely all very dry, the humidity differences inside of different sized refrigeration units may be just significant enough to cause subtle differences in a pizza.

I don't pretend to know all of the possibilities, but once you start creating pizza using a different mixer, different cooling unit and a different oven, not to mention creating it in an entirely different space than your home, all sorts of small differences may or may not pop up.

[Pete-zza]

pizzablogger,

When I responded to Saad's inquiry, I was thinking strictly about doing a dough scaling and division up front and going directly to the refrigerator or cooler with the dough balls. That seems to be the most common method used by pizza operators, particularly for the NY style Mike has been investigating. If the number of dough balls is especially large such that it takes too long to do the division and scaling by hand and the dough balls sit around too long before going into the refrigerator/cooler, the usual recommendation in cases like this is to use a machine (dough divider/rounder) to perform these steps. It is possible to cold ferment dough in bulk but I think that you will find that pizza operators who do that usually end up using sheeters to open up skins from dough balls cut from the bulk dough. There may also be a few operators who do strictly room temperature fermentation where the dough balls are divided and scaled up front or after the bulk rise and allowed to ferment at room temperature, but room temperature fermentations are much less common among professional pizza operators, at least in the U.S.. It is common, however, in places like Naples and by others emulating the Neapolitan style.

Each of the above possibilities has its own set of dynamics. And the analysis, especially for those of us in a home setting who do not make commercial dough batch sizes, can become rather complicated and confusing. As an example, see the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://www.pmq.com/tt/viewtopic.php?p=14180#14180. This means that for proper (or at least less confusing) analysis it helps to specify which method is being used to prepare the dough balls and the conditions that apply to such method.

Peter