Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project (Read 81862 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #60 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:12:36 PM »

John,

I usually use the actual weight of a dough ball and the corresponding pizza size to determine the thickness factor, independent of the bowl residue factor. So, in your example, a dough ball weighing 872.74/3 = 290.91333 g./10.261493 oz. and used to make a 14" pizza has a thickness factor of 10.261493/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0666599. So, your answer was correct but for the decimal place in your last post. Your answer would change slightly if you decide to factor in the bowl residue value in some fashion, as it appears you did. As you know, there are variations in practice between calculated dough weights using a bowl residue factor and actual dough weights. But these variations tend to be slight, with little effect on the thickness factor.

To copy the tables from the dough calculating tools, hit the Copy button and, in your text, use Ctrl-V where you want to insert the material.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #61 on:** May 12, 2009, 03:55:13 PM »

Quote from: XanderKane on May 12, 2009, 12:48:10 PM

I did check out the calculator at the front page, but having no idea what the current thickness factor was I wasn't sure what I should be doing. That's probably a small concern but I'm still a little intimidated by the percentage system.

Bryan,

There is a pretty good basic discussion of baker's percents at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/bakerspercentage.pdf. Once you grasp the concepts, you might play around with either the Lehmann dough calculating tool or the expanded dough calculating tool with some values just to get a better feel for how the tools work.

Peter

XanderKane · « **Reply #62 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:27:55 PM »

Mike,

Thanks for giving me a hand there. I'll get a batch mixed up and report back on how I did with it. I like this formula as the edges of the crust don't rise dramatically during baking like so many other recipes I've tried. Its also a lot closer texture and flavor wise to what I've had in mind since the beginning. I also caved in and ordered some 6 In 1 tomatoes after several miserable attempts and I haven't regretted it. I'm only disappointed that I can't find it in any stores here in Memphis. The last real issue I have is the cheese and I may report back and ask some advice there.

I agree that I need to get a more accurate scale. I had no idea that it went in 2 gram increments until I tried it out. Seems ridiculous to me that it does that.

Peter,

I actually downloaded that pdf the first time around and have read through it. I essentially understand it, but I don't have command of the knowledge if that makes sense. I do much better learning from experience than from reading. I just need to get some experimentation under my belt to get more comfortable.

--Bryan

JConk007 · « **Reply #63 on:** May 12, 2009, 09:54:58 PM »

Thanks for those tips Peter!
JC

Essen1 · « **Reply #64 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:08:21 AM »

Over the weekend, in my pursuit of the Marcello’s crust, I thought I’d do a little more detailed testing to see if I could somewhat replicate that elusive airy, fluffy crust with the limited info I have as of yet.

And I came up with some interesting crusts.

I made one dough ball per crust, not like the batch of three I normally shoot for. This testing was really just limited to one dough at a time. But since I like the Number 3 apparently, or so it seems, I made three doughs, using three slightly different formulas I labeled Crust 1, Crust 2 and Crust 3. It’s genius, I know.

Anyway…

All three were 14” in size, two of them, #1 & #2, were same-day crusts respectively and #3 received a wonderfully refreshing 24hr cold-rise treatment.

Refreshingly, in a sense that it was different. Very different from what I’m actually after. Something I have named “Pizza Rustica” since then, and that was last night. The crust, it’s taste and the certain crunch it had to it, reminded me more of a Southern France country bread or a homemade Italian Ciabatta, only thinner and maybe a bit more flavorful.

I digress, though. More on that Crust 3 later.

Crust #1…

…Is a slightly altered formula Peter had suggested to me a few weeks back, I believe, and the only variables I played around with were the sugar and oil amounts. It was topped with roasted bellers, Kalamata olives, garlic, red onion and marinated artichoke hearts and half of the pie with tuna. The cheese was a blend of Grande Low-moisture and TJ’s whole-milk mozzarella.

I used the same kneading/mixing regimen as I have before and you can read about it here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg70689.html#msg70689

The way I added the ingredients together for the mixing process was actually heavily leaned on Evelyne Slomon’s suggestion over at the PMQ Think Tank (Reply 5):

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=825&highlight=totonnos#825

However, what I did this time was what the owner of Marcello’s suggested and that is to give both doughs (Crust 1 & 2) only 15 mins to relax after they came out of the bowl, instead of the normal hour I give - ball them up and then in the fridge they go, for about 3 hrs this time. After that, I brought them up to room temp for a couple of hours, covered with a tea towel. Of course, if you’d make a larger batch using either formula, you’d divide the dough after those 15 mins, and then ball them up.

Crust #1:

215 gr. SBBF / 100%
135 gr. Water (75° F) 63%
5.3 gr. organic sugar 2.5%
4 gr. garlic EVOO 2%
3.7 gr. Kosher salt 1.75%
1.3 gr. IDY .2%

Personal consensus on Crust 1:

Very good, but with room for improvement. It had all the features the Marcello’s pizza has but I wasn’t too happy with the airiness and lightness. It lacked in that department despite the voids you see in the pics. Which brings me to…

…Crust #2.

Light, airy, foldable is probably the best way to describe it. However, my gripe with that crust is, or was, the water-like and somewhat mealy aftertaste. I understand it had a hydration of 64% and a higher salt content (2%) than Crust #1 - and isn’t salt known for water retention? – but it was still a bit too much for me. Perhaps a slightly higher amount of garlic-infused EVOO and IDY could remedy that, combined with a tad more fermentation time. I’ll find out.

In regards to the individual mixing regimens…the same method was used for all three crusts because I was mostly interested in the way the different formulas performed rather then seeing those formulas perform when different mixing/kneading techniques were applied. I tried to keep the Mix/Knead method a constant. The same goes for the other ingredients, from the sugar to the oil. The flour was Stone-Buhr Bread Flour. The reason I used it, instead of KABF, was first it has a slightly higher protein content and second, I believe its browning capabilities are a bit better compared to KABF. And it’s friendlier to one’s wallet, too.

Is it a good alternative to the trusted KABF? Absolutely. And if Stone-Buhr keeps its research going, there’s a good chance they might exceed KABF. But for now, SB is a great alternative. Let’s leave it at that…

Crust #2:

214 gr. SBBF / 100%
137 gr. Water (75° F) 64%
5.3 gr. organic sugar 2.5%
3.7 gr. garlic EVOO 1.75%
4 gr. Kosher salt 2%
1 gr. IDY .15%

As you can see, this time I played around with the yeast, the oil and the hydration amounts.

Personal consensus on Crust 2:

Great,..but also with, I think, a truck-load of room for improvement. It had all the features the Marcello’s pizza has but it lacked in taste. Bummer! The pizza was topped with the same cheese combo as No. 1, but had no additional toppings…a plain cheese pie, so to speak!

Now, this is not, and I repeat, NOT a spin off of PFT’s “Pizza Raquel” thread, but rather a somewhat enlightening occurrence, which occurred in my head at that time if that is of any importance…an enlightening, and very much cherished occurrence, and that is pizza.

In other words, I didn’t expect this particular outcome.

Nevertheless, she was magnifico! (the crust that is)

I’m recommending it to any NY-style lover and home pizza maker, who’s serious about their pies. It’s not the Holy Grail, but that crust must be improved! A good to great overall crust, with tendencies toward a unique “country-style” crust…rustic, if you will, hence “Pizza Rustica”,

Crust #3 (Pizza Rustica)

Check it out for yourself…

218 gr. SBBF 100%
135 gr. water 62%
1.5 gr. IDY .2%
3 gr. Kosher salt 1.5%
3 gr. EVOO 1.5%
4 gr. organic sugar 2%

I’m still thinking about that crust…I’m sure I could get it to be a bit softer, and with the right flop. I’ll report on that.

In the meantime, perhaps Peter can look over what I have said above to be sure that I got everything right.

Keep on baking, fellas…

P.S.: I might have to cut this post in half, meaning the pics should be all at the bottom of this delightful post!

Crust 1 Pics...

Essen1 · « **Reply #65 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:15:09 AM »

...more pics...

Crust #2 (with a weak spot)

Essen1 · « **Reply #66 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:18:34 AM »

...and last but not least...

Crust #3

Essen1 · « **Reply #67 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:20:08 AM »

Bryan,

Glad I was off help! I agree, cheese is a tricky thing, or ingredient. But it's fun experimenting!

XanderKane · « **Reply #68 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:24:04 AM »

All these new pictures are making me hungry, but I don't have a crust at the ready. $:-\$

I think I'll have to keep an eye on your progress with the Pizza Rustica and give it a try sometime soon.

Yeah the cheese is frustrating me a bit. Maybe I'm just not using high quality enough cheese. it all starts to burn before the crust has a chance to really brown thoroughly on the bottom. To answer the question I see coming I generally use a pizza screen. I have a stone, but with the ridiculously hot Memphis summer we're heading into the 1 hour preheat time is unbearable.

Essen1 · « **Reply #69 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:41:55 AM »

Quote

I think I'll have to keep an eye on your progress with the Pizza Rustica and give it a try sometime soon.

Bryan,

I had just logged out when I saw your reply...I was headed to the kitchen, making a new batch

"Rustica" gets a slight make-over tonight, in regards to the amount of yeast, which will go down to a gram instead of the 1.5 grams I've used previously. EVOO will go up to 2% or to 4 grams (rounded down), and the hydration will increase by 1% to 63% hydration.

EDIT: I made a mistake when I said the hydration goes up by 1% to 64%. I meant 63%. Sorry, my bad but it's corrected above.

Matthew · « **Reply #70 on:** May 13, 2009, 06:16:41 AM »

Mike,
Looks fantastic bro! Keep it going.

Matt

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #71 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:16:11 AM »

Hey Mike, wazzup bro! These look really really good. #2 looks like it had the most pop in the rim, and less gum line than the others, #1 in particular. The mealy flavor sounds odd, you'd know more the cause than I, but that was my top pick on appearance alone. Fantastic, you're really getting to new heights. Climb that mountain!

Cheers, J.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #72 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:38:28 AM »

Mike,

It was fun re-reading the exchange that I and others had with Evelyne Slomon on autolyse and related matters at the PMQ posts you referenced even though I highly doubt that Marcello's is using autolyse.

All of your pizzas look enticing. The dough formulations for the pizzas look to be in good shape, but can you tell us what weight of dough you used to make the three pizzas? Also, did you use the broiler element as part of your overall baking process?

To the extent that you are able to get more information on the Marcello's dough, you might be able to incorporate that information into one or more of the existing dough formulation. I would like to get a better feel for the amount of yeast that Marcello's uses.

For your information, I spoke to a salesperson today at Rotoflex in San Antonio, Texas. I wanted to get a better feel for the operating temperature of their ovens (500 degrees F just seemed to be too low a limit) and the use of the steel baking surface in comparison with a stone surface. I was told that the oven can get to about 700 degrees F but because their ovens are so well insulated they are used at 475-525 degrees F by most pizza operators who have the Rotoflex ovens. Apparently higher oven temperatures are needed with traditional deck ovens to satisfactorily bake the pizzas while keeping the ovens hot at peak production times and the recovery period short. The steel baking surface tends to be a preference matter, especially for operators who previously used metal pans. I was told that one would have to be a real pizza expert to be able to tell the difference between a pizza baked on their metal surface and one baked on their stone surface. BTW, the supplier of the stones for their ovens that are retrofitted with stones is AWMCO, the manufacturer of the Fibrament stones. The salesperson I spoke with was well aware of Marcello's but did not know how specifically they are using their Rotoflex oven. If you ever decide to get into the pizza business, a basic Rotoflex oven with a hood costs about $30K, including delivery and installation (about $4500 of the cost is for delivery and installation).

Peter

Essen1 · « **Reply #73 on:** May 13, 2009, 12:56:14 PM »

Matt,

Thanks so much! I'll keep at it and will report back on additional findings once I get my hands on more info.

Jimbo,

Good to see you back, Bro! Hope all is well.

Yes, I don't know what was up with that mealy flavor. It had an after taste like if you'd mix just flour and water together then stick your finger in it and taste it. I have to work on that. Otherwise, the crust was fine. Maybe it didn't mix well for some reason. That would probably also explain that "weak" spot in the crust you see in one of the pics.

Quote

It was fun re-reading the exchange that I and others had with Evelyne Slomon on autolyse and related matters at the PMQ posts you referenced even though I highly doubt that Marcello's is using autolyse.

Peter,

I doubt also that they use autolyse. I mainly referenced that post from Evelyne because of the order she adds the ingredients into the mixing bowl and the kneading regimen she suggested. It's solid advice and I have been using it for a few weeks now with mainly great results.

I apologize for forgetting to include the individual dough weights and thanks for pointing that out. The weight in all three crust was aimed at 360 - 365 grams, give or take a couple of grams.

Quote

For your information, I spoke to a salesperson today at Rotoflex in San Antonio, Texas. I wanted to get a better feel for the operating temperature of their ovens (500 degrees F just seemed to be too low a limit) and the use of the steel baking surface in comparison with a stone surface. I was told that the oven can get to about 700 degrees F but because their ovens are so well insulated they are used at 475-525 degrees F by most pizza operators who have the Rotoflex ovens. Apparently higher oven temperatures are needed with traditional deck ovens to satisfactorily bake the pizzas while keeping the ovens hot at peak production times and the recovery period short. The steel baking surface tends to be a preference matter, especially for operators who previously used metal pans. I was told that one would have to be a real pizza expert to be able to tell the difference between a pizza baked on their metal surface and one baked on their stone surface. BTW, the supplier of the stones for their ovens that are retrofitted with stones is AWMCO, the manufacturer of the Fibrament stones. The salesperson I spoke with was well aware of Marcello's but did not know how specifically they are using their Rotoflex oven. If you ever decide to get into the pizza business, a basic Rotoflex oven with a hood costs about $30K, including delivery and installation (about $4500 of the cost is for delivery and installation).

You are the man, Peter!

Thanks so much for calling the guys at Rotoflex and obtaining that info. It's funny that you mentioned the folks from Fibrament because when I spoke with the owner on my last trip to Marcello's, inquiring about the metal surface, I mentioned the Fibrament stones to her and said that the company who makes them does also custom work for commercial ovens. I can tell, from talking to her (owner), that she ecstatic about her oven. I believe Tony Gemignani in San Leandro, uses a Rotoflex, too.

I have still ways to go before I can even seriously considering open a little shop. I want to have a solid product first, meaning a great crust, great sauce, the right cheese combo and an overall solid business concept that fits and caters to the potential community. And until all that is in place, I'll stick to my kitchen and my trusted test eaters.

Btw, my old man's having a B-Day party coming up at the end of this month with 30 or more people attending. He asked me to make some pies and there will be people that never had any of my pizzas so it will be a good opportunity to see what those people think. I might shoot another little video, we'll see.

Glutenboy · « **Reply #74 on:** May 13, 2009, 01:34:22 PM »

Beautiful pics! This thread is pulling me away from responsibilities and back into the kitchen! It's evil...

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #75 on:** May 13, 2009, 02:10:33 PM »

Quote from: Essen1 on May 13, 2009, 12:56:14 PM

Jimbo,

Good to see you back, Bro! Hope all is well.

Fabuloso! Yeah man, I'm just rockin' in the free world as always,

Hope things are well with you as well my friend.

GB, thanks again for your dough man, there's always some waiting for fruition in my cooling chamber. Also always remember, as the good Lord himself said, "The seventh day doeseth be the day of magic". Well, maybe he didn't say that exactly...but it really applies to your dough perfectly.

Essen1 · « **Reply #76 on:** May 13, 2009, 07:20:36 PM »

Quote

Fabuloso! Yeah man, I'm just rockin' in the free world as always, Cool Hope things are well with you as well my friend.

Ah, good ol' Neil.

He lives in my neck of the woods here, actually. And all is well with me, too.

XanderKane · « **Reply #77 on:** May 15, 2009, 03:45:11 AM »

So what's the latest on your Pizza Rustica experiment? I figure by now you've had a chance to test it out.

I've got three crusts in the fridge and will give the first a try tomorrow when the girlfriend comes over. I'll let you know how it goes. After making this batch I immediately logged on and ordered a new scale from Amazon. The recipe called for grams in a lot of odd number and being that the scale I have only goes in multiples of 2...well it was irritating. My new scale should arrive on Monday.

Essen1 · « **Reply #78 on:** May 15, 2009, 12:22:47 PM »

Quote

So what's the latest on your Pizza Rustica experiment? I figure by now you've had a chance to test it out.

Well, like I said before, the crust must be improved and that's what I worked on or tried to achieve in the last couple of days. I didn't expect the crust to come out perfect, and it didn't, since it's just the beginning but it was still pretty damn good.

I used the Stone-Buhr Bread flour again but this time I softened it up a bit by substituting 100 gr. of SB with 100 gr. of Caputo Pizzeria flour and sifted them together. Made a big difference, I believe. The dough, after balling it for bulk-rise, was incredibly soft and silky and the surface was extremely smooth as you can see in the first couple of pics. I upped the hydration to 64%, EVOO went up to 2.3% and the IDY went up to 0.3% from 0.2%, which translates in this formula:

545 gr. SBBF & 100 gr. Caputo Pizzeria (645gr. / 100%)
413 gr. Water (64%)
15 gr. EVOO (2.3%)
13 gr. Sugar (2%)
10 gr. Kosher salt (1.5%)
2 gr. IDY (0.3%)

I don't have the TF on this but the formula produces three doughballs at 365gr. each for a 14" pie.

Furthermore, I decided to do a 24hr, 48 hr and 72hr cold-rise. After each elapsed time period, I'd take the dough out of the fridge, cut a 365 gr piece off of it, re-ball the bulk and back into the fridge it goes. I'd then redistribute the gases in the individual dough ball, re-ball it and let it come to room temp before shaping it.

The mixing procedure went like this:

Add water to the mixing bowl at 80° F, added all the salt and sugar and completely dissolved it before sifting in 50% of the flour. Using the paddle I mixed it until it had a nice batter-like consistency. I gave it a 45 min rest and then added the rest of the flour, added the yeast and lastly the oil. After that it was 5 mins with the dough hook on Speed 1, 10 mins rest, 10 mins on Speed 2, 10 mins rest, 2 mins on Speed 2 then onto the counter, balling it up and in the fridge it went for the first 24 hr cold-rise.

The first skin was very easy to shape and had some nice bubbles in it as you can see in the pic below. I topped it with fresh mozzarella and some leftover grated low-moisture mozzarella I had from the day before. Well, the crust came out great but it had a bit of a sweet taste to it so I will lower the sugar amount in my next batch some time next week. It baked for about 7 mins with an additional minute under the broiler to get some more coloring. As an added bonus...whooopdeeedoooh

...it had a great Totonno's look to it. I posted two pics as a comparison. It didn't have the nice char, though, since I don't have a coal-fired oven here at home.

Overall, the crust was excellent. It was foldable, had a good flop, had a nice structure, good crunch and chew. The only thing was the sugar. That put me off a bit but it's also easily corrected. I'm curious to see how the dough is after a 48hr cold-rise.

Some pics...

Essen1 · « **Reply #79 on:** May 15, 2009, 12:24:11 PM »

...and the rest of the pics.