Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[Essen1]

Peter,

Thanks very much for your elaborate reply.

I have had Marcello's a few times and also got a whole pie from them at one point but most of the time it was the slices that left me wanting more of it.

Anyway, I have taken some pics in the past and they can be found here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg72815.html#msg72815  and here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg73881.html#msg73881.

Notice that the rims are somewhat different then the last slices I had. When I had the chance back in 2009 to chat with Luc in our store about Marcello's pizza, she never directly said flat out that they make NY-style pies. However, she said with a smile that she's from New York and brought the dough recipe with her if I understood her correctly. At the very least, she was trained there.

Either way, I am going to be in Marcello's neck of the woods some time this week and hopefully I'll get a chance to observe a little more when I have lunch there and maybe take a few more pictures of the display case and individual slices. Unfortunately, my phone doesn't have a video function otherwise I'd shoot a little video. But if they should pop a whole pie in the oven while I'm there, I'll make sure I'd get the timing on it.


Jose,

Your pie looks pretty close. Perhaps a crumb shot would help. But thanks so much for your suggestions. very much appreciated.


On a different note, my local Safeway who had carried the 6 in 1 28oz cans for quite some time stopped doing so. There's one other place here in Sausalito who carries them but they charge an arm and a leg for a 28oz can.

When I saw that deeply reddish color of Marcello's sauce I immediately thought that the 6 in 1's would give me the best option to a) replicate the color and b) the taste. So I went online to Escalon's website and ordered six cans. The price? $16.50...$15.00 for the cans and $1.50 shipping. Unbelievable.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Thanks for refreshing my memory on the earlier Marcello's pizzas. Do you recall what size the pizzas were? It seems to me from the 18" pizzas that I have made that the geometry and size of a slice lends itself better to folding than slices from a smaller pizza. But the photos of the earlier Marcello's pizzas suggest a thinner crust than what my calculation of thickness factor suggests and a longer, dryer bake as well. However, having worked with Norma on trying to replicate a Mack's pizza, I learned that the pizzas made by Mack's can take on any number of different appearances.

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

Thanks for refreshing my memory on the earlier Marcello's pizzas. Do you recall what size the pizzas were? It seems to me from the 18" pizzas that I have made that the geometry and size of a slice lends itself better to folding than slices from a smaller pizza. But the photos of the earlier Marcello's pizzas suggest a thinner crust than what my calculation of thickness factor suggests and a longer, dryer bake as well. However, having worked with Norma on trying to replicate a Mack's pizza, I learned that the pizzas made by Mack's can take on any number of different appearances.

Peter

Peter,

The whole pie I got from them back then was a large. Looking at their menu it's a 16" pie. What I noticed last week when I had some slices for lunch was that they are actually pretty thin. I don't know if the pics show the thinness correctly. And there was also a slight gum line present which to me indicates a perhaps underbaked pie or it occured because they were sitting in the showcase.


Edit: Found more pics off of Yelp.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

If you have a chance, you might want to confirm whether the last dough balls you purchased were for 18" pizzas. I have discovered that there is not always exact linearity or proportionality going from one size pizza to another. In other words, the thickness factor that applies to, say, an 18" pizza, might not be the same as for a 16" pizza, or a 14", or a 12". Using just one thickness factor might lead to oddball dough ball weights. Or it may be possible that the different weights are related to baking factors that are different for the different size pizzas.

As to crust thinness, it is also possible to make a pizza with a pretty ample rim yet have a thin part from the rim to the center. That might be intentional or it might happen unintentionally in the hands of an inexperienced pizza worker on the make line. If you have ever made an 18" skin that is fairly highly hydrated, you would see how that could happen.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

I'll give them a call right now and find out.

[Essen1]

Okay, just got off the phone with Luc.

The 900gr (2lbs) dough ball is for their "House" pizza which is 24 inches in size. I asked her which size they use for a 14" and it's 12 oz of dough. She told me that they also sell the dough in 12ounces.

The reason why I got the largest size was because the guys up front only know how to ring up the big size. Luc suggested that if next time I should end up with the large dough size to just cut it into four pieces.

At least now we have some numbers to go by.

900gr/32oz = 24"

340gr/12oz = 14"

If my calculations are correct this means that Marcello's uses 675gr. or 24oz for an 18 inch pie.

However, 340gr. seems a little on the low side to me. If you use an arithmetic such as the rule of three it would give me a weight of 525gr. for a 14" pie.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

As you will see below, there is insufficient information to be able to calculate precisely how much dough is used to make an 18" pizza or a 16" pizza. However, I think we can get quite close.

If 900 grams of dough is used to make a 24" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is [(900/28.35)/(3.14159 x 12 x 12)] = 0.070174196.

If 12 ounces of dough, or 340.2 grams, is used to make a 14" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is 12/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.077953507.

When Luc suggested dividing the 900g/31.746 oz dough ball into four pieces, I believe that she was actually giving you the amount of dough to use for a 12" pizza. Assuming that such was the intention, then the corresponding thickness factor is [(900/28.35//4)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6)] = 0.070174196. That is the same value as for the 24" size.

As you can see, the three thickness factors given above are quite close in value. To determine how much dough is used to make either a 16" pizza or an 18" pizza, you would have to pick one of the three thickness factors, or possibly average the three values and use that number. Or, you could ask Luc sometime what dough ball weights she uses for those two sizes. For now, if we were to use the average of the three thickness factors just to get some rough numbers, the amount of dough that you would need to make a 16" pizza would be 3.14159 x 8 x 8 x 0.072767299 (the average) = 14.631 oz, or 414.78 grams.

In like manner, the amount of dough that you would need to make an 18" pizza would be 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.072767299 = 18.52 ounces, or 524.96 grams.

I used all of the decimal places from my calculations in case I have to revisit the math.

The best data for the 16" and 18" sizes would be Luc. If you can get that, then we can fine tune the values even further. But, whatever the outcome, the thickness factors are in line with the values that are typically used to make an "elite" New York style pizza.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

You're the man, hands down! I really appreciate you taking the time doing all those calculations. It's an immense help

It seems that Luc/Marcello's stays close to their Thickness factor. I calculated the average TF and it comes to 0.073631667333333, which is right where Marcello's is, give or take a few.

When I first called the guy who answered told me she's busy but took down my number and she called me back within 5 min. I explained to her what's going (didn't mention we're working on a clone here  ) and she was very forthcoming with the info. However, knowing it was lunch time and she was busy already, I didn't want to keep her on the phone for too long. But I think the info I got is still a decent enough to use for our purposes.

The average TF number now helps me to calculate a formula using the Lehmann calculator, which makes things a bit easier.

But what puzzled me a little was when the owner's girlfriend was in my store last week she mentioned that they bake their pies on a composite stone/hearth deck, she just didn't know what it was but was sure it wasn't anything from Fibrament.

On the other hand, Luc told me in beginning of May '09 that they bake on steel decks as you can see here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg73881.html#msg73881  I guess they must have installed hearth deck since May '09.

I don't know if you remember but you called Rotoflex and spoke with a salerep who apparently told you that the supplier for their hearth decks is AWMCo, the makers of Fibrament.

BTW, the supplier of the stones for their ovens that are retrofitted with stones is AWMCO, the manufacturer of the Fibrament stones. The salesperson I spoke with was well aware of Marcello's but did not know how specifically they are using their Rotoflex oven.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74084.html#msg74084

I have a hunch that either the girlfriend doesn't know what's going on regarding their oven because I don't think Luc, who comes across as a pizza enthusiast and appreciates people who show interest in it, or someone's handing out conflicting info.

Either way, I'll take a closer look at their oven next time I'm there.

[Essen1]

I ran the Marcello's TF of 0.077953507 for a 14" pie through the Lehmann calculator and came up with this formula:

Flour (100%):       404.95 g  |  14.28 oz | 0.89 lbs
Water (64%):       259.17 g  |  9.14 oz | 0.57 lbs
IDY (.2%):            0.81 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):            6.07 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (3%):                  12.15 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.7 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
Sugar (1%):            4.05 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp

Total (169.7%):     687.2 g | 24.24 oz | 1.51 lbs | TF = 0.0787325

Single Ball:         343.6 g | 12.12 oz | 0.76 lbs

The reason I chose a 64% hydration is because of the light crust it yields. The oil I hope will give it a chewier texture, retain moisture and make it easy to fold.

If I use the average TF of 0.073631667333333 I got a total dough weight of 325gr. rounded up, which is an almost 20 gr. difference. I think for my first crack at this formula I'll stick with Marcello's TF. At least for now.


Flour (100%):        382.49 g  |  13.49 oz | 0.84 lbs
Water (64%):          244.8 g  |  8.63 oz | 0.54 lbs
IDY (.2%):             0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):             5.74 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Oil (3%):                   11.47 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.55 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
Sugar (1%):             3.82 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp

Total (169.7%):    649.09 g | 22.9 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.0743663

Single Ball:        324.55 g | 11.45 oz | 0.72 lbs

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

The differences in thickness factor are so slight that they will get lost in the noise. As a practical matter, you cannot make doughs that noticeably capture the differences. They can get lost in the size of the rim quite easily, or in many other places. I ran the full set of numbers mainly to see if there were differences in the thickness factors based on pizza size.

Since Luc correlated the dough balls you purchased with pizza size, I think you are safe in using the relevant thickness factor to make a test dough or two. Since you have established a nice relationship with Luc, my best advice is to respect that relationship and not reveal any of her trade secrets. However, what you learn from public sources and legal efforts is fair game. In my reverse engineering and cloning exercises, I actually prefer figuring things out myself. It is a lot harder that way but more satisfying in the end.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

That's what I figured regarding the TF. What stood out, though, was the difference in dough weight.

Regarding Luc, I hold her in high regard and would never throw her under the bus by revealing any insider info besides what's available to the public already. If she is forthcoming about dough weight and correlating pizza sizes I'm sure I wasn't the first that asked her that question who bought doughs at her place.

But it is fun to speculate and run experiments with the info given and available.

[Essen1]

Last night when I got home I thought I might try something I haven't done before. I have made emergency doughs before but they all involved a proofing window of a few hours.

Last evening, the window was exactly two hours.

I took everything into consideration what has been talked about here in the last few posts and what I know so far about Marcello's crust and this is what I came up with.

I kept the hydration at 64% but upped the yeast amount to 0.6% for faster proofing.

410gr. BF                 100%
262gr. Water(90°F)   64%
12gr. Oil                       3%
4gr.   Brown sugar       1%
6gr. Sea salt                1.5%
2.5gr.   IDY                   0.6%

I mixed everything together, let it rest for 20 mins, then kneaded it for the next 8 mins, divided the dough and let it rest for about 1.5hrs before baking it off.

The result...

[Essen1]

And the rest of the pics. The first one was topped just pepperoni and mushrooms and the second pie was just cheese.

[Essen1]

A few observations about last night's 'experimental' two-hour crust...

First, it was a tad too thick and the bottom was a bit too crunchy. It also didn't have the nice spotting like the Marcello's crust.

Secondly, the rim wasn't as puffy despite the high yeast amount and increased hydration. An increase in the individual dough weight to perhaps 365gr. instead of 345gr. will counter that. I'll try to keep the TF as close as possible to the original numbers.

Third, hydration. I might go as high as 65% or 66%, increase the sugar amount by maybe 0.5% to adjust the browning on the bottom.

Fourth, lower the yeast amount to 0.3% and increase fermentation time to 7 hours.

It will be interesting to see the outcome.

[Essen1]

I decided to get a new stone...

Right now the biggest size pizza I'm able to make is 14 inches. I saw this one, an Old Stone 16" round pizza stone on Amazon.com for $41.99 and free shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/Old-Stone-4461-16-Inch-Oven/dp/B0000E19MW/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I311T10FQ3R6MH&colid=1RKP2E279DI5S

I currently have an American Metalcraft stone made from cordierite. Does anyone know what the Old Stone is made of? I really like the crusts the cordierite gives me so far and Amazon has no info on what the new stone's made of. All it says it's made from "firebrick material".

Any info is appreciated.

[dellavecchia]

Picture perfect - straight out of a pizza shop. I love the shot of the side of a whole slice, with all the small bubbles running down the entire length. How was the flavor?

John

[scott123]

I currently have an American Metalcraft stone made from cordierite. Does anyone know what the Old Stone is made of? I really like the crusts the cordierite gives me so far and Amazon has no info on what the new stone's made of. All it says it's made from "firebrick material".

Old Stones are cordierite. They're, imo, a little on the thin side, though. Are you still doing your oven trick?  If you are, then a ~.5" stone is probably fine, but if you're baking at ~550, then I'd go with a full inch of cordierite:

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx

As far as the lateral dimensions go, if I really bust my butt, I can get a 17" pie on my 17" stone, but 16" pies are SO much more comfortable.  If you want to go with the classic 16" pie, go with something larger than 16".  I always tell people to go with a stone that's as big as their oven can handle on the back wall to front door dimension and allow space on the sides for air flow. Square stones tend to work well for this purpose. As long as the oven door closes, you're good.

Have you considered soapstone? San Fran has to have it's share of soapstone countertop installers.

[Essen1]

Picture perfect - straight out of a pizza shop. I love the shot of the side of a whole slice, with all the small bubbles running down the entire length. How was the flavor?

John

Thanks, John.

It was okay for such a short proofing time.

The sauce was right on and the cheese was perfect. The crust itself could have used a longer fermentation, though.

[Essen1]

Old Stones are cordierite. They're, imo, a little on the thin side, though. Are you still doing your oven trick?  If you are, then a ~.5" stone is probably fine, but if you're baking at ~550, then I'd go with a full inch of cordierite:

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx

As far as the lateral dimensions go, if I really bust my butt, I can get a 17" pie on my 17" stone, but 16" pies are SO much more comfortable.  If you want to go with the classic 16" pie, go with something larger than 16".  I always tell people to go with a stone that's as big as their oven can handle on the back wall to front door dimension and allow space on the sides for air flow. Square stones tend to work well for this purpose. As long as the oven door closes, you're good.

Have you considered soapstone? San Fran has to have it's share of soapstone countertop installers.

Scott,

Thanks for the info!

I ordered from Axner before, great company. But, the 18x18 stone's too big for my oven. 16" is all it tolerates from back to front without preventing the door from closing.

[Matthew]

Mikey,
Is there are a pottery supply near you?