Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 139753 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #450 on: December 07, 2010, 09:08:04 PM »
Mike,

Maybe you already mentioned it, but do you know the bake time typically used at Marcello's?

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #451 on: December 07, 2010, 10:35:00 PM »
Mike,

Maybe you already mentioned it, but do you know the bake time typically used at Marcello's?

Peter

Peter,

Scott123 asked me the same thing a couple of days ago, I think.

I really don't know how long they bake their pies or if the pies made for slices and are on display in the shop are a bit underbaked.

But I found this:

Quote
The operator's story led Daisy to investigate a Roto-Flex oven, which features multiple, circular stone decks spaced vertically on a rotating center axle. It produced the hearth-baked crust characteristics he desired and cooked his pizzas with the speed and ease typically credited to conveyor ovens.

Now, how fast is a conveyor oven? That might give us a clue.

I also saw a video on YouTube with Tony Gemignani where he demonstrates that type of oven. However, all he says is that the pizzas cook "really, really fast" but unfortunately doesn't give a time frame.

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #452 on: December 07, 2010, 11:20:01 PM »
Okay, some pics from last night's bake.

The second set of pics shows the crust that was too dry and somewhat shattered when I was trying to fold it but unfortunately I don't have a pic of that...

Here's also a little video I took of the rim after it expanded to it's almost full size, addressed to Peter. Go figure... ;D

« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 11:22:44 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #453 on: December 07, 2010, 11:21:03 PM »
Second set...

Mike

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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #454 on: December 07, 2010, 11:24:30 PM »
Looks great to me.  I find that particular type of crust profile happens with my bread when I do not inject enough water into the oven.  Could it be something similar?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #455 on: December 07, 2010, 11:42:01 PM »
Looks great to me.  I find that particular type of crust profile happens with my bread when I do not inject enough water into the oven.  Could it be something similar?

The first pie was okay, the second not so much.

I was thinking about adding some steam to the bake a few days ago but then again, it's odd and shouldn't be done.

It all has to come from the crust itself, internally and through the way it's assembled and the values that are selected. A bunch of factors come into play, too, such as fermentation time, cold or room, salt levels, oil levels, etc. You get my drift.

And the oven is a big, big factor and makes a huge difference. It can make or break a good dough. Last but definitely not least, the bake times...they're crucial. Especially when you're dealing with an extremely hot and dry environment such as my little GE oven at home.

It's back to the drawing board, I guess. At least for now.  8)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 11:43:38 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #456 on: December 08, 2010, 12:01:56 AM »
I think a *very* well-mixed dough of 62% hydration, 4-5% oil, 2% salt, .25% yeast, and no sugar, baked on a stone on the lower rack@500 for about 9 minutes, will (judging from the pics) provide a reasonable clone of the Marcello's, at least in appearance.

JLP
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #457 on: December 08, 2010, 12:54:26 AM »
I think a *very* well-mixed dough of 62% hydration, 4-5% oil, 2% salt, .25% yeast, and no sugar, baked on a stone on the lower rack@500 for about 9 minutes, will (judging from the pics) provide a reasonable clone of the Marcello's, at least in appearance.

JLP

Jose,

I appreciate the suggestion.

Your post reeks of confidence that your formula will/might work. What do you suggest as a mixing/kneading time? 8 to 10 mins or maybe less?

Can you elaborate?
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #458 on: December 08, 2010, 09:34:28 AM »
Mike,

I tried to find some photos of the Marcello's pizzas to get a better idea as to their appearance. There weren't many, but the ones shown at http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/3284941429_09a497cff5.jpg, http://www.threetopsf.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/marcellos-pizza.jpg and http://www.dotphoto.com/SAN1/5A/F2/9B/i5AF29B26-6687-4A30-B250-78DA600A0FCC.jpg appear to be representative. All three of these photos are slice photos but the pizzas shown do not appear to have had a long bake. On this point, as I was researching the matter, I found comments from Marcello's customers that the Marcello pizzas sometimes had a doughy, or somewhat underbaked, quality. If the dough balls you purchased were for 18" pizzas, I can see how a short bake at the oven temperature that Marcello's uses, 550 degrees F, might produce pizzas like those shown in the photos.

With respect to your question concerning the relative bake times of conveyor ovens versus a Roto-Flex oven, there are conveyor ovens, like the Middleby Marshal WOW! oven, that can bake a pizza in about 5 minutes. Papa John's uses that oven in some of its stores. However, most conveyor ovens appear to have a bake time of around 7 minutes. Where the Roto-Flex oven is most often compared with conveyor ovens is the throughput of the oven. The basic Roto-Flex oven has several decks that rotate four times a minute. With the multiple decks, the proponents of the oven claim that they can get an output that rivals conveyor ovens, yet produce a classic deck oven bake. If I were to try to replicate a Marcello's pizza, I would start by using the same thickness factor as Marcello's uses and I would use a relatively short bake time at around 550 degrees F. I would judge the bake time on appearance of the pizza as it bakes. You don't want the crust to turn too dark and too crispy but you also want the toppings to be properly baked, hopefully before the pizza crust starts to brown up. Since you have had Marcello's pizzas many times, you may already know what the actual crust color is. 

As I was researching the Marcello's pizza, I found comments of reviewers that characterized the Marcello's pizzas as New York style. If the thickness factor I calculated is correct, I would not characterize the Marcello's pizza as a New York style. They may have the outward appearance of a NY style, but the crust is too thick (if we are right on the thickness factor) to be a true NY style. I did not see anything on the Marcello's menu at http://www.marcellospizzasf.com/menu.html that makes any claim to a NY style but they perhaps don't diabuse anyone of the notion either.

As a side note, I would caution those who decide to research Marcello's pizzas that there are many places that use the name Marcello's for their establishments. I believe the photos I found are for the Marcello's on Castro St (http://www.marcellospizzasf.com/).

Peter


Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #459 on: December 08, 2010, 10:02:50 AM »
Jose,

I appreciate the suggestion.

Your post reeks of confidence that your formula will/might work. What do you suggest as a mixing/kneading time? 8 to 10 mins or maybe less?

Can you elaborate?

I mentioned it because, in the past few weeks, I've used that formula and some variants to make a few round pies (in a different, non-NY style) that seemed to resemble the Marcello's inasmuch as they had charred undercarriages but a lighter level of browning on the cornicone. On the other hand, I've never seen one of his pies up close and in person; would you say that the attached pic (of one of mine) comes close to the mark as far as the coloration is concerned?

JLP
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 10:04:36 AM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #460 on: December 08, 2010, 12:38:59 PM »
Peter,

Thanks very much for your elaborate reply.

I have had Marcello's a few times and also got a whole pie from them at one point but most of the time it was the slices that left me wanting more of it.

Anyway, I have taken some pics in the past and they can be found here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg72815.html#msg72815  and here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg73881.html#msg73881.

Notice that the rims are somewhat different then the last slices I had. When I had the chance back in 2009 to chat with Luc in our store about Marcello's pizza, she never directly said flat out that they make NY-style pies. However, she said with a smile that she's from New York and brought the dough recipe with her if I understood her correctly. At the very least, she was trained there.

Either way, I am going to be in Marcello's neck of the woods some time this week and hopefully I'll get a chance to observe a little more when I have lunch there and maybe take a few more pictures of the display case and individual slices. Unfortunately, my phone doesn't have a video function otherwise I'd shoot a little video. But if they should pop a whole pie in the oven while I'm there, I'll make sure I'd get the timing on it.


Jose,

Your pie looks pretty close. Perhaps a crumb shot would help. But thanks so much for your suggestions. very much appreciated.


On a different note, my local Safeway who had carried the 6 in 1 28oz cans for quite some time stopped doing so. There's one other place here in Sausalito who carries them but they charge an arm and a leg for a 28oz can.

When I saw that deeply reddish color of Marcello's sauce I immediately thought that the 6 in 1's would give me the best option to a) replicate the color and b) the taste. So I went online to Escalon's website and ordered six cans. The price? $16.50...$15.00 for the cans and $1.50 shipping. Unbelievable.

Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #461 on: December 08, 2010, 01:38:47 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for refreshing my memory on the earlier Marcello's pizzas. Do you recall what size the pizzas were? It seems to me from the 18" pizzas that I have made that the geometry and size of a slice lends itself better to folding than slices from a smaller pizza. But the photos of the earlier Marcello's pizzas suggest a thinner crust than what my calculation of thickness factor suggests and a longer, dryer bake as well. However, having worked with Norma on trying to replicate a Mack's pizza, I learned that the pizzas made by Mack's can take on any number of different appearances.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #462 on: December 08, 2010, 02:23:37 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for refreshing my memory on the earlier Marcello's pizzas. Do you recall what size the pizzas were? It seems to me from the 18" pizzas that I have made that the geometry and size of a slice lends itself better to folding than slices from a smaller pizza. But the photos of the earlier Marcello's pizzas suggest a thinner crust than what my calculation of thickness factor suggests and a longer, dryer bake as well. However, having worked with Norma on trying to replicate a Mack's pizza, I learned that the pizzas made by Mack's can take on any number of different appearances.

Peter

Peter,

The whole pie I got from them back then was a large. Looking at their menu it's a 16" pie. What I noticed last week when I had some slices for lunch was that they are actually pretty thin. I don't know if the pics show the thinness correctly. And there was also a slight gum line present which to me indicates a perhaps underbaked pie or it occured because they were sitting in the showcase.


Edit: Found more pics off of Yelp.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 02:51:40 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #463 on: December 08, 2010, 03:45:46 PM »
Mike,

If you have a chance, you might want to confirm whether the last dough balls you purchased were for 18" pizzas. I have discovered that there is not always exact linearity or proportionality going from one size pizza to another. In other words, the thickness factor that applies to, say, an 18" pizza, might not be the same as for a 16" pizza, or a 14", or a 12". Using just one thickness factor might lead to oddball dough ball weights. Or it may be possible that the different weights are related to baking factors that are different for the different size pizzas.

As to crust thinness, it is also possible to make a pizza with a pretty ample rim yet have a thin part from the rim to the center. That might be intentional or it might happen unintentionally in the hands of an inexperienced pizza worker on the make line. If you have ever made an 18" skin that is fairly highly hydrated, you would see how that could happen.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #464 on: December 08, 2010, 04:40:08 PM »
Peter,

I'll give them a call right now and find out.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #465 on: December 08, 2010, 04:59:06 PM »
Okay, just got off the phone with Luc.

The 900gr (2lbs) dough ball is for their "House" pizza which is 24 inches in size. I asked her which size they use for a 14" and it's 12 oz of dough. She told me that they also sell the dough in 12ounces.

The reason why I got the largest size was because the guys up front only know how to ring up the big size. Luc suggested that if next time I should end up with the large dough size to just cut it into four pieces.

At least now we have some numbers to go by.

900gr/32oz = 24"

340gr/12oz = 14"

If my calculations are correct this means that Marcello's uses 675gr. or 24oz for an 18 inch pie.

However, 340gr. seems a little on the low side to me. If you use an arithmetic such as the rule of three it would give me a weight of 525gr. for a 14" pie.


Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #466 on: December 08, 2010, 06:06:35 PM »
Mike,

As you will see below, there is insufficient information to be able to calculate precisely how much dough is used to make an 18" pizza or a 16" pizza. However, I think we can get quite close.

If 900 grams of dough is used to make a 24" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is [(900/28.35)/(3.14159 x 12 x 12)] = 0.070174196.

If 12 ounces of dough, or 340.2 grams, is used to make a 14" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is 12/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.077953507.

When Luc suggested dividing the 900g/31.746 oz dough ball into four pieces, I believe that she was actually giving you the amount of dough to use for a 12" pizza. Assuming that such was the intention, then the corresponding thickness factor is [(900/28.35//4)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6)] = 0.070174196. That is the same value as for the 24" size.

As you can see, the three thickness factors given above are quite close in value. To determine how much dough is used to make either a 16" pizza or an 18" pizza, you would have to pick one of the three thickness factors, or possibly average the three values and use that number. Or, you could ask Luc sometime what dough ball weights she uses for those two sizes. For now, if we were to use the average of the three thickness factors just to get some rough numbers, the amount of dough that you would need to make a 16" pizza would be 3.14159 x 8 x 8 x 0.072767299 (the average) = 14.631 oz, or 414.78 grams.

In like manner, the amount of dough that you would need to make an 18" pizza would be 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.072767299 = 18.52 ounces, or 524.96 grams.

I used all of the decimal places from my calculations in case I have to revisit the math.

The best data for the 16" and 18" sizes would be Luc. If you can get that, then we can fine tune the values even further. But, whatever the outcome, the thickness factors are in line with the values that are typically used to make an "elite" New York style pizza.

Peter



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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #467 on: December 08, 2010, 06:48:01 PM »
Peter,

You're the man, hands down! I really appreciate you taking the time doing all those calculations. It's an immense help ;D

It seems that Luc/Marcello's stays close to their Thickness factor. I calculated the average TF and it comes to 0.073631667333333, which is right where Marcello's is, give or take a few.

When I first called the guy who answered told me she's busy but took down my number and she called me back within 5 min. I explained to her what's going (didn't mention we're working on a clone here  8) ) and she was very forthcoming with the info. However, knowing it was lunch time and she was busy already, I didn't want to keep her on the phone for too long. But I think the info I got is still a decent enough to use for our purposes.

The average TF number now helps me to calculate a formula using the Lehmann calculator, which makes things a bit easier.

But what puzzled me a little was when the owner's girlfriend was in my store last week she mentioned that they bake their pies on a composite stone/hearth deck, she just didn't know what it was but was sure it wasn't anything from Fibrament.

On the other hand, Luc told me in beginning of May '09 that they bake on steel decks as you can see here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg73881.html#msg73881  I guess they must have installed hearth deck since May '09.

I don't know if you remember but you called Rotoflex and spoke with a salerep who apparently told you that the supplier for their hearth decks is AWMCo, the makers of Fibrament.

Quote
BTW, the supplier of the stones for their ovens that are retrofitted with stones is AWMCO, the manufacturer of the Fibrament stones. The salesperson I spoke with was well aware of Marcello's but did not know how specifically they are using their Rotoflex oven.


http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74084.html#msg74084

I have a hunch that either the girlfriend doesn't know what's going on regarding their oven because I don't think Luc, who comes across as a pizza enthusiast and appreciates people who show interest in it, or someone's handing out conflicting info.

Either way, I'll take a closer look at their oven next time I'm there.

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #468 on: December 08, 2010, 07:21:18 PM »
I ran the Marcello's TF of 0.077953507 for a 14" pie through the Lehmann calculator and came up with this formula:

Flour (100%):       404.95 g  |  14.28 oz | 0.89 lbs
Water (64%):       259.17 g  |  9.14 oz | 0.57 lbs
IDY (.2%):            0.81 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):            6.07 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (3%):                  12.15 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.7 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
Sugar (1%):            4.05 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp

Total (169.7%):     687.2 g | 24.24 oz | 1.51 lbs | TF = 0.0787325

Single Ball:         343.6 g | 12.12 oz | 0.76 lbs

The reason I chose a 64% hydration is because of the light crust it yields. The oil I hope will give it a chewier texture, retain moisture and make it easy to fold.

If I use the average TF of 0.073631667333333 I got a total dough weight of 325gr. rounded up, which is an almost 20 gr. difference. I think for my first crack at this formula I'll stick with Marcello's TF. At least for now.


Flour (100%):        382.49 g  |  13.49 oz | 0.84 lbs
Water (64%):          244.8 g  |  8.63 oz | 0.54 lbs
IDY (.2%):             0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):             5.74 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Oil (3%):                   11.47 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.55 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
Sugar (1%):             3.82 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp

Total (169.7%):    649.09 g | 22.9 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.0743663

Single Ball:        324.55 g | 11.45 oz | 0.72 lbs
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #469 on: December 08, 2010, 07:47:50 PM »
Mike,

The differences in thickness factor are so slight that they will get lost in the noise. As a practical matter, you cannot make doughs that noticeably capture the differences. They can get lost in the size of the rim quite easily, or in many other places. I ran the full set of numbers mainly to see if there were differences in the thickness factors based on pizza size.

Since Luc correlated the dough balls you purchased with pizza size, I think you are safe in using the relevant thickness factor to make a test dough or two. Since you have established a nice relationship with Luc, my best advice is to respect that relationship and not reveal any of her trade secrets. However, what you learn from public sources and legal efforts is fair game. In my reverse engineering and cloning exercises, I actually prefer figuring things out myself. It is a lot harder that way but more satisfying in the end.

Peter

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #470 on: December 08, 2010, 08:08:28 PM »
Peter,

That's what I figured regarding the TF. What stood out, though, was the difference in dough weight.

Regarding Luc, I hold her in high regard and would never throw her under the bus by revealing any insider info besides what's available to the public already. If she is forthcoming about dough weight and correlating pizza sizes I'm sure I wasn't the first that asked her that question who bought doughs at her place.

But it is fun to speculate and run experiments with the info given and available.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #471 on: December 09, 2010, 12:21:44 PM »
Last night when I got home I thought I might try something I haven't done before. I have made emergency doughs before but they all involved a proofing window of a few hours.

Last evening, the window was exactly two hours.

I took everything into consideration what has been talked about here in the last few posts and what I know so far about Marcello's crust and this is what I came up with.

I kept the hydration at 64% but upped the yeast amount to 0.6% for faster proofing.

410gr. BF                 100%
262gr. Water(90F)   64%
12gr. Oil                       3%
4gr.   Brown sugar       1%
6gr. Sea salt                1.5%
2.5gr.   IDY                   0.6%

I mixed everything together, let it rest for 20 mins, then kneaded it for the next 8 mins, divided the dough and let it rest for about 1.5hrs before baking it off.

The result...

« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 12:24:48 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #472 on: December 09, 2010, 12:26:48 PM »
And the rest of the pics. The first one was topped just pepperoni and mushrooms and the second pie was just cheese.
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #473 on: December 09, 2010, 02:57:45 PM »
A few observations about last night's 'experimental' two-hour crust...

First, it was a tad too thick and the bottom was a bit too crunchy. It also didn't have the nice spotting like the Marcello's crust.

Secondly, the rim wasn't as puffy despite the high yeast amount and increased hydration. An increase in the individual dough weight to perhaps 365gr. instead of 345gr. will counter that. I'll try to keep the TF as close as possible to the original numbers.

Third, hydration. I might go as high as 65% or 66%, increase the sugar amount by maybe 0.5% to adjust the browning on the bottom.

Fourth, lower the yeast amount to 0.3% and increase fermentation time to 7 hours.

It will be interesting to see the outcome.
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #474 on: December 10, 2010, 03:35:26 PM »
I decided to get a new stone...

Right now the biggest size pizza I'm able to make is 14 inches. I saw this one, an Old Stone 16" round pizza stone on Amazon.com for $41.99 and free shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/Old-Stone-4461-16-Inch-Oven/dp/B0000E19MW/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I311T10FQ3R6MH&colid=1RKP2E279DI5S

I currently have an American Metalcraft stone made from cordierite. Does anyone know what the Old Stone is made of? I really like the crusts the cordierite gives me so far and Amazon has no info on what the new stone's made of. All it says it's made from "firebrick material".

Any info is appreciated.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein


 

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