Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 128761 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #500 on: December 14, 2010, 12:57:13 PM »
Nice looking pies and nice looking crumb Mike.   No doubt the increased hydration rate has given you a more airy and moist looking crumb.  Can you compare the texture of this pie to what you were doing previously?  Have you lost some of the crunch due to the increase hydration?  Are the baking times and temps of this pie different from your previous efforts?

Chau


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #501 on: December 14, 2010, 02:55:23 PM »
Chau,

I lost a little of the crunch from my previous pies but not a whole lot. However, the foldability was much better probably due to the amount of oil.

The baking times were around 7 mins at 525F.

I just ordered two 5lb bags of All Trumps Bromated High-Gluten flour from Pennmac. I have a hunch that this one will give me more flexibility and might get me closer to Marcello's crust. And...I can also take a stab at DiFara's crust
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #502 on: December 14, 2010, 04:10:00 PM »
Matt & Scott,

Quick question regarding the stone/kiln shelf.

Both of you recommended a 1" solution for my oven and have the 18x18" cut down to 18x17.5".

However, Ceramics SF recommends to use a 5/8" shelf for firings up to Cone 5 (2118F/hr - 2205F/hr). Wouldn't a 5/8" thick stone, which is 1/8" thicker than what I have right now, suited better for an electric home oven that only goes up to 550F?

From CSF:

Quote
5/8" shelves are recommended to cone 5, although some users find they are adequate to cone 10 when used in electric kilns.  Use 1" shelves for firings from cone 5 to 10 and in gas kilns.

Or am I missing something here?  ???


Also, wouldn't the recovery time be much quicker for a thinner stone with great conductivity, compared to a 1" thick one?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 04:12:05 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Matthew

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #503 on: December 14, 2010, 05:09:23 PM »
Matt & Scott,

Quick question regarding the stone/kiln shelf.

Both of you recommended a 1" solution for my oven and have the 18x18" cut down to 18x17.5".

However, Ceramics SF recommends to use a 5/8" shelf for firings up to Cone 5 (2118F/hr - 2205F/hr). Wouldn't a 5/8" thick stone, which is 1/8" thicker than what I have right now, suited better for an electric home oven that only goes up to 550F?

From CSF:

Or am I missing something here?  ???


Also, wouldn't the recovery time be much quicker for a thinner stone with great conductivity, compared to a 1" thick one?

Not sure, I am under the impression that if it's thicker it will store more heat & recover quicker.  I could be wrong though.  Scott??

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #504 on: December 14, 2010, 05:57:08 PM »
Not sure, I am under the impression that if it's thicker it will store more heat & recover quicker.  I could be wrong though.  Scott??

Matt,

Makes sense but I'm not sure, either.
Mike

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PaulsPizza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #505 on: December 14, 2010, 06:00:36 PM »
Mike, your crumb has improved a lot IMO. What or who made you up the hydration? (sorry, I haven't had time to read all the thread) but I will over the Xmas break.

Paul

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #506 on: December 14, 2010, 06:15:26 PM »
Paul,

Thanks, bro.

Quote
What or who made you up the hydration?

I know that increased hydration yields an aerier crust/crumb structure and I thought to give it a shot because of the crust I'm currently working on and trying to emulate.

Marcello's crust is extremely light and airy and I haven't been able to reproduce that type of crust in my home oven with my usual hydrations of 60-63% so the next logical step was to increase the hydration value. It's still a work in progress, though.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

PaulsPizza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #507 on: December 14, 2010, 06:39:42 PM »
Thanks,
I will have a read through the thead and get back to it.

Paul
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 06:41:18 PM by PaulsPizza »

scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #508 on: December 14, 2010, 08:59:22 PM »
Mike, I'm probably stating the obvious here, but when you bake a pizza,  all the heat necessary to bake the bottom of the pie is stored in the stone. A thicker stone gives you more thermal mass, which, in turn, gives you a greater amount of stored heat.

When you put a pizza on a stone, the heat/energy travels from the stone to the pizza.  A bigger stone, with a greater thermal mass will transfer proportionately less of it's energy reserve than a smaller stone. This also means that the temperature of the stone drops at a slower rate. Generally speaker, the bigger the stone, the quicker the bake time.  This is why you can walk into a pizzeria with a deck oven heated to 450 with 1.5-2" slabs and walk out with a pie baked in 5 minutes. A 1/2" stone preheated to 450 would take forever to bake a pizza because it's thermal mass would store a fraction of the heat than a typical deck oven stone.

Gauging potential recovery time with thicker stones is a difficult task.  A thicker stone

1. stores more heat and ends up at a higher temp after a pizza is baked, so it doesn't have to recover as much, but

2. the additional thermal mass will cause the recovery to take proportionately longer than the smaller stone. 

1 and 2 most likely cancel each other out, and, from a recovery standpoint, the stones might act in a similar fashion, but there's way too many variables (the composition/temp/thickness of the dough, the wattage/btu output of the oven, the specific heat of the stone, the differences in mass, etc.) to know for sure.

Even in pizzerias with deck ovens with loads of thermal mass, you do hear stories of bake temps dropping/bake times extending during especially busy times when the oven has to handle lots of pizzas and the burner/element can't feed the stones fast enough.  In other words, additional mass doesn't guarantee quick recovery times.

The one aspect where you will pay with a thicker stone is the pre-heat.  As discussed before, the composite material will go a long way in mitigating any additional pre-heat times between the old 1/2" and new 1" stones, but... if you went with 5/8" compositie, the decrease in pre-heat time could be dramatic.

My recommendation of a 1" stone isn't related to recovery but to bake time.  Depending on the actual composition of the CSF stone, there's a really good chance you'll be able to bake a 4 minute or less pie in an unmodified 550 degree oven.  A 5/8" stone is going to extend that clock.  Being able to bake a 4 minute pizza without oven tricks, is, to me, pretty convenient.  If you're comfortable with oven mods and/or are pretty well settled in on longer bake times for the foreseeable future, then maybe the 1" stone is overkill.  Also, if you're striving for the shortest pre-heat possible, then the 5/8" stone would be the better choice. If, on the other hand, you want the flexibility of shorter bake times without oven tricks and are relatively comfortable with your current pre-heat time, go with the thicker stone.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:04:29 PM by scott123 »


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #509 on: December 15, 2010, 12:27:57 AM »
Scott,

Thanks very much for the elaborate and informative reply! It has exactly the info I needed and more.

The first paragraph made me laugh a bit because I do know a little about physics and heat transfer and so on.  ;D
But certainly not to the extend like you, member Red.November(RN) or others on here. And Matt's help is always appreciated.

To be honest, I was looking for a little more flexibility in the new stone, meaning that I want to be able to explore different baking times, which in turn would necessitate different dough formulas. A four-minute bake time is fantastic but what to do if I want to test a pie that requires a ten minute bake? Lower the heat and risk sub-par coloration? Switch stones? Especially in my unmodified oven, which on a very good day, can hit a temp of 625F with my current cordierite stone, which is 1/2" thick, or an inch if you count the feet in.

That's why I thought that the 5/8" stone might be a good option. But...as you pointed out, it might not very feasible regarding heat loss/storage. I'm looking for a stone that I can have some flexibility with in terms of baking times, recovery and so on, that can handle low and high temps and that's durable, meaning I would be able to use it in 10 years from now. That's why I wanted to get some opinions from you, Matt and others before deciding on one stone. However, the CSF stones/kiln shelves might just be the ticket. Trial & Error, I guess.

And since both of you have pointed to the 1-inch stone as a better alternative, I'll give CSF a call tomorrow and see if they can cut it down for me by 1/2" to 17.5"x18"x1".

Thanks again to you and Matt for the info...it's very much appreciated, as always!  :chef:

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #510 on: December 15, 2010, 02:10:47 AM »
Mike, your crumb has improved a lot IMO. What or who made you up the hydration? (sorry, I haven't had time to read all the thread) but I will over the Xmas break.

Paul

Since I got slapped on the wrist for my bad manners, I absorbed the entire post. Seems like higher hydration was mentioned some time ago.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg104688.html#msg104688
Just sayin' ;D

Thanks.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #511 on: December 15, 2010, 02:28:58 AM »
Since I got slapped on the wrist for my bad manners, I absorbed the entire post. Seems like higher hydration was mentioned some time ago.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg104688.html#msg104688
Just sayin' ;D

Thanks.

Hate to break it to you, Jet_deck, it wasn't because of Chau's suggestion.

It's something I have done (using high hydrations) before Chau, or even you, joined this forum. At that time, however, my oven back then was a different animal from the one I'm using now and a high hydration wasn't very feasible and didn't return the results I was looking for. But at that time, I also wasn't trying to emulate Marcello's crusts.

I hope that puts your curiosity to rest.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #512 on: December 15, 2010, 02:35:35 AM »
Btw, Jet_deck...here's the reply to Chau:

If you reference a link, I suggest you reference the entire convo.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg104736.html#msg104736
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #513 on: December 16, 2010, 04:09:24 PM »
Yesterday I got the new stone from CSF.

I was able to chat a little with the owner, Bob, and asked about if there are significant differences regarding the 1-inch and the 5/8" stones. He said for the application I'm planning to use it for the differences would be minimal. He also said that the Thorley stones' composition is vastly superior than a stone made from 95% cordierite, such as the American Metalcraft stones.

Unfortunately, they weren't able to cut the 18x18x1 stone and referred me to a place downtown. But since it's Christmas shopping season with parking being a nightmare right now and Bob's info that the 2/8" difference in thickness between two stones probably wouldn't have a major impact on the outcome of my pies, I decided to go with the 17x17x5/8" stone. Plus, it was about $15 cheaper and saved me the hassle of driving around downtown, paying for parking, dealing with traffic, etc.

Anyway, when I got home I started curing the stone even though I forgot to ask if it was necessary. I started with a temp of 350F for 10 mins, increased it to 400F for another 10 mins and stopped at 450F for another 40mins.

Using my IR Thermometer I sporadically checked in on the temp and after the first 10 mins at 450 the stone temp was 489F and kept climbing. Compared to my Cordierite that was fantastic! The heat up time so far is very satisfying. However, the Sharks were playing and my focus was on the game, to be honest.  :-[

I didn't take any more measurements to see how high it actually went. I kept the oven on for about an hour total, before shutting it down.

I have a dough out, fermenting at room temp right now and I'm going to take the stone for a test run tonight. But from what I saw last night, I am stoked with the new stone.  ;D

Thanks again, Matt & Scott!

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #514 on: December 17, 2010, 04:56:42 PM »
Took the new stone for a test drive last night. All I can say is that I am very happy with it so far.

Preheated it for about one hour @ 500F and when the first pie went in, it was at 615F. Very cool.

I used the same formula that's posted here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg104685.html#msg104685

The pies came out great. Nice browning, the crust was light, very airy and had a nice crunch to it. The bake time was 5 mins flat. That's a 3-5 minute improvement over my usually 8-10 minutes on the cordierite. And the bottoms had a very slight charring. Over time, I'll re-evaluate by using different dough formulations.

Some pics...

Mike

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Offline jever4321

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #515 on: December 17, 2010, 06:02:37 PM »
Essen1, Thoes pies look AWESOME.
-Jay

PaulsPizza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #516 on: December 17, 2010, 06:10:23 PM »
Since I got slapped on the wrist for my bad manners, I absorbed the entire post. Seems like higher hydration was mentioned some time ago.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg104688.html#msg104688
Just sayin' ;D

Thanks.

Awesome, thanks buddy, I was sure someone mentioned that he should up the water% but couldn't find the post.

Paul


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #517 on: December 18, 2010, 12:08:54 AM »
Awesome, thanks buddy, I was sure someone mentioned that he should up the water% but couldn't find the post.

Paul

Paul and all the others who advocate a high hydration for a dough used in a regular home oven setting, here's a little excerpt from Evelyne Slomon on achieving an open hole structure in your crusts:

Quote
If you are talking about the cell structure of the crumb, the open hole structure is achieved with a higher hydration--at least 60%. Some formulas achieve that same structure with a bit less moisture (58%) but they generally contain a preferment of some kind. If you are looking to utilize high hydration, it will be important to use a flour that has high extensibility and gassing properties. You will also have to use high baking temperatures to get the oven spring necessary for those results.

As you can see, a hydration of 65% and up is not always necessary or feasible when using an oven that only goes to 550F. And since I'm working on a specific crust, I think I'm doing okay so far.

Now, if I'd use my LBE, a higher hydration would always be used.

But I appreciate and value all your inputs, guys.  ;)
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #518 on: December 18, 2010, 01:28:32 AM »
Mike, congratulations on the successful bake. Those are some very nice looking pies.

I'm curious, when you say you preheat @ 500, do you set it right at the 500 mark, or do you set it right below the broil mark?

Once you start working with All Trumps you're going to want to increase your hydration a bit- I would say 63% minimum.  With the extra water, you'll want all the heat you can from your oven to keep that bake time low.


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #519 on: December 18, 2010, 03:24:41 AM »
Mike, congratulations on the successful bake. Those are some very nice looking pies.

I'm curious, when you say you preheat @ 500, do you set it right at the 500 mark, or do you set it right below the broil mark?

Once you start working with All Trumps you're going to want to increase your hydration a bit- I would say 63% minimum.  With the extra water, you'll want all the heat you can from your oven to keep that bake time low.



I did set it at the 500F mark because it's a round number. The setup does allow me to move the knob a little further up. I did that with my old oven.

Since it was the first couple of pizzas baked on a new stone, I went with 500F. However, I also have the option to increase the temp by pulling off the control know, loosen two screws and turn the cover by three notches or so...increasing the temperature by 30F.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #520 on: February 03, 2011, 04:42:37 PM »
I finally got around to give the All Trumps flour I purchased from Pennmac.com a try.

Well, it was actually the second try. During the first test run I screwed up the hydration and kneaded the dough way too long. The final result was that the crust was too dry and too chewy. I guess it was one of those "Trial & Error" situations that sometimes come with trying out a new flour for the first time.

So, this time I increased the hydration to 66% and kept the kneading time to a mere 4 mins, which was preceded by a 30 minute rest after I incorporated everything for about 2 mins. I also went back to using organic sugar instead of the brown sugar I've been using lately. The dough came out of the mixer incredibly smooth. I also added a 30 minute bench rest before dividing it into three 425gr. balls. The dough then received a 24hr cold-rise, with one additional hour on the counter to warm up.

The crust had a great texture, a nice crunch but was also light, airy and a tad chewy. Very nice, overall.

To make a long story short, this is probably the one of the better flours I have worked with so far to make a good NY-style pizza, albeit the fact that it is bromated, which is somewhat unfortunate. I know they make an unbromated version but that brings up the question if it does perform just as good as the bromated brother.

I will post the exact steps I took in making this dough and the formula later on tonight, since I don't have my notes with me here at work.

Some pics...

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #521 on: February 03, 2011, 04:45:15 PM »
Mike,

I love it - everything about it - beautiful.

Craig
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #522 on: February 03, 2011, 05:08:21 PM »
Beaut!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #523 on: February 03, 2011, 05:11:18 PM »
Thanks, guys!

Matt,

I wish I had your oven, though. It would be perfect for that kind of pies.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #524 on: February 03, 2011, 05:20:53 PM »
Mike,

I agree that is beautiful!  I also liked All Trumps when I used it.

Norma


 

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