Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 133390 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #600 on: May 21, 2011, 09:42:18 AM »
K,

For just about as long as I can remember, after reading about DDT from Tom Lehmann's writings, I have tried to achieve the DDT in my doughs that are intended to be cold fermented. However, the DDT method lends itself best to a commercial environment. The reason is that in a commercial environment there is usually only one mixer, whose friction factor can be easily calculated through a simple test, and the friction factor then becomes a constant that can be used in each DDT calculation thereafter. Also, there is usually only one type of dough in a commercial environment (or maybe two, and that is not all that common), and the dough batch size is usually constant and made the same way every time. And the dough balls in a commercial environment usually go into the cooler fairly quickly, after dividing and scaling, without using autolyse or other rest periods, so that they don't start fermenting too quickly.

By contrast, in a home setting, there are many more variables, mainly because of the large number of different brands and models of mixers and a correspondingly large number of friction factors. I have discussed many of the factors that implicate DDT in a home environment in posts such as Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7180.msg61973/topicseen.html#msg61973 and at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5571.msg47171/topicseen.html#msg47171. It is also important to keep in mind that friction factors also apply to food processors and bread makers, of which there are also many makes and models. Since these machines tend to add considerably more heat to the dough than a stand mixer, getting the DDT is more challenging with these machines. Friction factor can also apply to hand kneaded doughs but the factor that seems to affect DDT most with hand kneaded doughs is the longer knead times and the typically longer exposure of the dough to room temperature (which affects the dough temperature), as well as other delays, intentional or otherwise, before getting the dough into the refrigerator.

On the matter of adjusting yeast quantity, it sometimes occurs that a pizza maker will keep on reducing the amount of yeast with increasing room temperature to keep their doughs from fermenting too fast. What sometimes happens, however, is that the amount of yeast gets so low that there is insufficient dough fermentation. This will usually manifest itself in the final product in an adverse manner, such as a stiff dough that is hard to open up and with poor or insufficient taste in the finished crust and possiby with some textural defects. But I don't want to go so far as to say that one should never change the amount of yeast as ambient temperatures change. I personally use different amounts of yeast in the summer and the winter, but I am in a position to monitor the dough and use it when it is ready. I also read recently that Papa John's adjusts yeast quantity and also sugar levels in the summer, as member c0mpl3x, who works for Papa John's, told us at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13826.msg138792.html#msg138792. Since the PJ doughs are made in commissaries and has to be delivered by trucks to their stores twice a week, controlling the fermentation of the dough is an absolute operational and economic necessity. Fortunately, most of us don't have to be as attentive to this matter.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #601 on: May 21, 2011, 12:04:24 PM »
PB & Peter,

Two excellent posts and thanks for the info.

However, when talking about a home environment and mixers, shouldn't it be able to individually achieve a consistent DDT because the same mixer is being used, in my case the Cuisinart?

I understand that when let's say other members try to replicate another member's formula using a different mixer the outcome may be different regarding the DDT but as an individual at home, with only one mixer consistency could be achieved.

I usually go for a dough temp of 80F coming off the hook.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 02:11:12 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #602 on: May 21, 2011, 12:12:28 PM »
The latest pies from last night using the revised formula from Reply #589 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg139871.html#msg139871  were spectacular.

Albeit a less puffy crust the texture of the crust was fantastic. I used the same mixing regimen, baking times, fermentation, etc like before and no other changes were made except for the salt amount and individual dough weight.

I also took heed of PB's advise regarding the sauce/cheese ration but still dint get the aesthetics right but that's only a minor problem which I'm sure will come together. Might try a different cheese to see if the melting capabilities are different.

Some pics...

 
Mike

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #603 on: May 21, 2011, 12:26:24 PM »
Beautiful Mike....Absolutely Flawless!

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #604 on: May 21, 2011, 12:28:31 PM »
However, when talking about a home environment and mixers, shouldn't it be able to individually achieve a consistent DDF because the same mixer is being used, in my case the Cuisinart?

Mike,

What you say should be true provided that you use the same dough formulation and the same dough batch size each time using the same mix speeds/times. However, if you materially change the dough formulation--such as materially changing the hydration value--and/or if you change the dough batch size and mix speeds/times, the friction factor will change and need to be recalculated. You would perhaps have to do some tests to see if the changes in the friction factor are material or not with your Cuisinart machine across the range of types of doughs and amounts of dough you make in your machine.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #605 on: May 21, 2011, 02:10:44 PM »
Beautiful Mike....Absolutely Flawless!

Matt

Thanks, Bro!

I have to spend a bit more time and play around with my camera settings. The pics all look a bit too grainy for my taste. Not to mention the crappy lighting.

But in my defense, they were taken during the Sharks-Nucks game and after a couple of beers  ;D
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #606 on: May 21, 2011, 02:20:23 PM »
Mike,

What you say should be true provided that you use the same dough formulation and the same dough batch size each time using the same mix speeds/times. However, if you materially change the dough formulation--such as materially changing the hydration value--and/or if you change the dough batch size and mix speeds/times, the friction factor will change and need to be recalculated. You would perhaps have to do some tests to see if the changes in the friction factor are material or not with your Cuisinart machine across the range of types of doughs and amounts of dough you make in your machine.

Peter

Peter,

I meant to say DDT, not DDF. I corrected it in my previous post.

What I do normally, when I know I am going to use a bulk cold-rise, I shoot for a dough temp of 75F coming off the hook because it takes longer for a bulk dough to cool down. I also keep the mixing speed constant.

But I go for a higher dough temp when I ball the dough up right after the mixing because the individual dough balls cool down a lot faster, if that makes sense.

Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #607 on: May 21, 2011, 02:46:16 PM »
Mike,

I don't think it makes much of a difference when you are talking about a small number of dough balls. Also, in a home setting, the refrigerator is a more critical component than is a commercial cooler setting. The temperature of a home refrigerator compartment where the dough balls are stored can vary quite widely depending on what is in your refrigerator at any given time, how often the refrigerator door is opened, how frequently items are removed or replenished, and even where physically the dough balls are placed in the refrigerator (e.g., toward the back, near the door, high or low).

In a commercial setting, adjustments to water temperature might be made to compensate for the fact that it takes a fair amount of time to divide and scale large numbers of dough balls. That is one of the reasons why cross-stacking of dough boxes is used to help cool off the dough balls faster so that they don't start fermenting too fast and possibly "blow". Also, commercial coolers usually get less traffic than a home refrigerator. Some places will even choose to make their dough balls at the end of the day after the last service so that there is even less traffic in and out of the cooler. Overnight, there should be no traffic.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #608 on: May 22, 2011, 07:00:18 PM »
Mike,

I don't think it makes much of a difference when you are talking about a small number of dough balls. Also, in a home setting, the refrigerator is a more critical component than is a commercial cooler setting. The temperature of a home refrigerator compartment where the dough balls are stored can vary quite widely depending on what is in your refrigerator at any given time, how often the refrigerator door is opened, how frequently items are removed or replenished, and even where physically the dough balls are placed in the refrigerator (e.g., toward the back, near the door, high or low).

In a commercial setting, adjustments to water temperature might be made to compensate for the fact that it takes a fair amount of time to divide and scale large numbers of dough balls. That is one of the reasons why cross-stacking of dough boxes is used to help cool off the dough balls faster so that they don't start fermenting too fast and possibly "blow". Also, commercial coolers usually get less traffic than a home refrigerator. Some places will even choose to make their dough balls at the end of the day after the last service so that there is even less traffic in and out of the cooler. Overnight, there should be no traffic.

Peter

Peter,

FWIW, I always place my doughs on the lowest shelf in the fridge, usually at night to prevent the door from being opened up too many times, to keep the temp steady.
Mike

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Offline jever4321

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #609 on: May 22, 2011, 08:35:08 PM »
Nice looking pies!
-Jay

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #610 on: May 29, 2011, 02:37:59 PM »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #611 on: May 29, 2011, 02:44:07 PM »
Okay....never try to attempt making a pizza after having a few Margaritas with your buddies after work. That's number one.

Number two...it resulted in TPF (Total Pizza Failure)! Bad shaping, bad saucing, bad cheesing, bad judgement on baking times...well bad everything.  ;D

Crust was completely underbaked, had a major gum line, almost no oven spring and the way the cheese melted was horrendous. The only good thing I can actually take away from this was the Thickness Factor. It was right on par. Other than that...TPF!

 :chef:
Mike

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Offline jever4321

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #612 on: May 30, 2011, 12:45:09 AM »
I wouldn't call that total pizza failure at all. Maybe it's not up to par with your normal efforts (I think it looks fine), but I can say that right now 12:42 am Eastern Standard time, I would put a hurtin' on that pie if it was in front of me... :-D
-Jay

Offline theppgcowboy

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #613 on: May 31, 2011, 06:01:58 PM »
Essen1,
I noticed that you have added garlic powder.  is this something that you do regularly because I do not see it in the dough formulation, and when cooked does it added any bitterness to the crust and crumb?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #614 on: June 01, 2011, 12:15:52 AM »
Essen1,
I noticed that you have added garlic powder.  is this something that you do regularly because I do not see it in the dough formulation, and when cooked does it added any bitterness to the crust and crumb?

Cowboy,

It's not something I do regularly but I think it does add a ton of flavor to the crust if you don't go overboard with the garlic. A teaspoon should do it.

I don't usually add/show it in my formula. It's more of a last minute thing and I sprinkle it on maybe a couple of minutes before the kneading cycle ends. I know it's somewhat unconventional but it does add some taste to the crust.

Not sure, though, how it affects the dough.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #615 on: June 12, 2011, 01:45:49 PM »
After watching the 'Foodwars' video (Grimaldi's vs. John's on Bleeker) I thought I try to replicate their pies.

Now, I don't have a coal-fired oven so I expected the outcome to be different in looks, such as crust coloration, the way the cheese turns out, etc.

Also, that loud crunch you hear in the video when people bite into was very intriguing whether it was dubbed in or not. Lowering the hydration from my previous pies (61%-63%), I thought, might get me there. It did partially, mainly toward the outer regions of the crust. The center of last night's pie was too soggy, though. Bummer.

I used member Scott R's formula http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11900.msg110912.html#msg110912  as a starting point. I really like this formula, have used it before and results were always great. The sogginess in the center came from a bit too much sauce and the olive oil which pooled together.

My oven, unlike Scott's, doesn't go up to 700F but I managed to coax 622F (stone temp) out of it. For some reason, though, the crust didn't yield a whole ton of coloration. I'll add some sugar or perhaps natural honey with the next batch to give the browning a boost.

Another thing was the TF. It was too thick and not as paper thin as the pies shown in the video. The individual dough ball weight was 400gr for a 16" size. Perhaps too much. I'll try 350gr next time.

Some pics...

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #616 on: July 20, 2011, 04:03:09 PM »
Very cool video on New York pizza:



Thought I'd share it here to see what others think of it.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #617 on: July 20, 2011, 04:20:42 PM »
Mike,

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12883.msg125120.html#msg125120 (including Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12883.msg125253.html#msg125253), http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14326.msg143218.html#msg143218 and Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13858.msg139176.html#msg139176.

I agree that the video is a good one from an instructional standpoint but I think that the hydration of the dough, even with the eggs, is on the low side, although the oil provides some softening of the dough. 

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #618 on: July 20, 2011, 04:32:47 PM »
Mike,

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12883.msg125120.html#msg125120 (including Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12883.msg125253.html#msg125253), http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14326.msg143218.html#msg143218 and Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13858.msg139176.html#msg139176.

I agree that the video is a good one from an instructional standpoint but I think that the hydration of the dough, even with the eggs, is on the low side, although the oil provides some softening of the dough. 

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links.

I didn't know that it was already posted in another thread. My bad. But the video itself is still a good one from, like you said, a instructional point of view. I agree that the water amount is very on the low side and the eggs might not compensate for the low hydration enough .
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #619 on: July 20, 2011, 04:47:22 PM »
Mike,

It would be expecting a lot to assume that our members, even the active ones like you, should to be able to look at all of the posts that end up on the forum every day. The July heat is slowing things down somewhat but we had been running close to 4000 new posts a month. It is easy to miss things.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #620 on: July 20, 2011, 05:04:41 PM »
Peter,

4000 posts is quite a number. The forum becomes more popular with each passing day it seems.  :)

Quick question, though. Bruno di Fabio mentions a weight of 20oz for a 16" pizza as a standard in NY. That translates to 567 grams. I have used dough balls of 550 gr for a 16" pie and thought that it is too much to replicate a NY-style pie with a smaller rim and thin center. The outer crust was always too large and puffy for a NY-style look.

What's the secret then?
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #621 on: July 20, 2011, 05:18:19 PM »
Mike,

The 20 ounces of dough for a 16" pizza translates to a thickness factor of 8/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.0995. I think that most experts on the NY style would consider that value to be too high, and certainly for an elite NY style as opposed to a NY street style, of which I think a Bruno's pizza is representative. Maybe one of the scotts (scott123 or scott r), on another expert on the NY style pizza familiar with thickness factors, can suggest a value for the thickness factor that pretty accurately reflects what pizza operators in the Metro NY area use, both for the elite style and the street style.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #622 on: July 20, 2011, 05:46:19 PM »
Mike,

The 20 ounces of dough for a 16" pizza translates to a thickness factor of 8/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.0995. I think that most experts on the NY style would consider that value to be too high, and certainly for an elite NY style as opposed to a NY street style, of which I think a Bruno's pizza is representative. Maybe one of the scotts (scott123 or scott r), on another expert on the NY style pizza familiar with thickness factors, can suggest a value for the thickness factor that pretty accurately reflects what pizza operators in the Metro NY area use, both for the elite style and the street style.

Peter

Peter,

That's what I thought. Hopefully one of the 'Scottsmen'  ;D will chime in.

Yesterday I treated my mother, who's a self-proclaimed pizza enthusiast, to a NY-style slice here in SF at Pizzeria Avellino. She travels frequently to NYC for business (Food industry) and has had authentic NY street & elite pizza a bazillion times. I've had slices from Avellino before and was very impressed. They rival my other NY-style spot, Marcello's. Anyway, she couldn't stop remarking how so very close Avellino comes to the real thing. I know from the owners that they all come from Brooklyn so I'm not surprised that the slices are great.

The crust was fantastic. The outer crust wasn't very large and puffy and the slice itself tapered off in thickness to maybe a couple of millimeters in the center, if not thinner. It was light, airy but crisp and foldable with a perfect cheese to sauce ratio. I took some pics with my mother's iPhone since I left mine in the car but the color of the cheese is off in those pics. It was not nearly as orange as it looks. Either way, the slices were dynamite, which prompted me to post a review on Yelp:

http://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-avellino-san-francisco


On my way home, my mother kept asking me what I think what makes Avellino's crust so great? My thoughts were a low hydration, maybe around 59%, some salt, very small amount of oil and some sugar, combined with perhaps an overnight cold-rise. Baked at 600F in a Baker's Pride. After thinking about their slices I had to put my thoughts into action and whipped up a batch for two dough balls at roughly 400gr each.

100% Flour
59% Water
.2% IDY
1.5% Sea Salt
.5% Oil
1% Sugar

Curious to see how it'll turn out tonight.

Pics from Avellino
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 05:51:08 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #623 on: July 20, 2011, 05:57:46 PM »
Forgot to mention that in my Yelp review I thought the crust to have no sugar but the more I thought about it at home later on, I think it did although I wasn't able to taste any when eating the slice initially.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #624 on: July 20, 2011, 10:46:30 PM »
This doesn't happen much, but when a slice really catches my eye, I'll just scroll up and down through the photos, over and over again, in a mildly hypnotic state  ;D

That could easily be one of the best looking slices that I've ever seen outside the NY area. Wow.

Mike, I think your numbers look excellent.  From the charring on the undercrust, I can tell that this is a relatively quick bake (5 maybe even 4 minutes), but, as you enter into the quick bake arena, the only way to achieve the kind of rigidity I'm seeing (pro slice grasping technique!) is to lower the hydration a bit.

Since it's San Fran, we know it isn't bromated.  Without seeing a larger cross section of crumb it's difficult to detect the protein content of the flour. How chewy is it?  Sometimes, when you get into lower thickness factor slices, a little extra bite from a higher protein flour is nice.  That being said, my gut is telling me that this isn't 14%.  I've been incredibly gung ho about 12ish percent protein flours for some time now, so that could be clouding my judgment, but, if I were making this, I'd go 12ish.  It could be Harvest King. I'm not saying it is, but it could be, so, if you have access to it, grab the better for bread (or if you absolutely have to, the KABF ;)  )

The thickness factor, as you're probably guessing, IS the defining aspect of this pizza.  Without that thickness factor, the cheese doesn't melt like that. The less dough you have between the hearth and the sauce/cheese, the more bottom heat hits the cheese and the more it bubbles and develops it's magical flavor. I'm thinking the thickness factor is .075, but it could be as low as .07.  For a crust like this, when you stretch the dough, press out a smaller rim than you normally do, maybe 1/4" and pop any big bubbles in the rim.

And, that's either grande or a grande clone. You might get close to it with either a polly-o or sorrento, but if you really want the cheese to look like that (and I'm guessing you do), it's got to be grande.

Again, without seeing more of the crumb, detecting fermentation time is tough.  It's not DiFara's sub 2 hour pale tasteless garbage, that much I can tell you.  Cold refrigeration is generally not the norm in NY, but you have to figure that there's a few pizzeria owners outside of the NY area that understand the superior taste giving qualities of the cold ferment. Regardless of whether or not you cold ferment, I'd definitely go overnight with the dough.

I would say yes to sugar. 1% sounds about right, but it could be as high as 2%. If the ferment is longer than 12 hours, then I'd lean towards 1%, but if the ferment is 8 or less, then I'd bump it up as high as 2%.

.5% oil feels a little low.  Oil can be a little hard to detect and I think some pizzerias avoid it, but I think most pizzerias use oil, and, those that do usually go with more than .5%.  Go with 2%.

Another big feature of this pizza, is the dimension- that classic, beautiful, archetypal 18" or larger slice pie that I've mentioned before.  The way the slice looks, the way it feels in your hand, that length is pure NY bliss. I'm not saying you have to go 18" or larger, but, bear in mind, that when you go 16", the slices are going to feel a little different in your hand. It won't be quite as thrilling  ;D

Before going completely crazy about pizzamaking, I was under the impression that cheese and sauce were somewhat simple and straightforward. Oh, man was I wrong.  If you

use a different brand of cheese
add a little more/less water to your sauce
vary as little as 1 ounce of cheese or sauce
use slightly warmer/cooler cheese or sauce

your pizza will be entirely different.  Here's where I'm at with sauce/cheese.

1. Sauce should be thick enough to form soft gentle peaks. For me, that's a can of cento puree with 1 oz. of water.

2. For a 16" pizza, use 7 oz. room temp sauce and 11 oz. of grande whole milk.  As you go larger/smaller sauce cheese quantities are not proportional.

3. Seeing sauce through the cheese is a price gouging Manhattan thing.  As much as I belittle Dom Demarco's fermentation techniques, if you look at his cheese, there's no sauce peeking through it.  In the outer boroughs, you can't get away with that stingy cheese thing. If you like seeing some sauce, try 9.5 ounce. Try not to expose more sauce by clumping the cheese. Clumped cheese never really melts properly.


Mike, I think you've got this.  The .075 TF stretch might be a little trying if you've never gone that thin before, but, with your experience, I'm sure you'll master it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 10:55:34 PM by scott123 »