Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 123318 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #650 on: July 21, 2011, 11:05:15 PM »
Scott,

I absolutely agree. However, home pizza makers have already been conditioned to the idea of using pizza stones, since there are so many recipes and cookbooks out there that call for using pizza stones--for years and years. So, there is no big selling job required to get people to think about using a steel plate. As you know, some members went to soapstone stones but others remained back in the pack, patiently watching and waiting to see if that was the way to go. I suspect that there are also a fair number of people out there waiting for a more definitive verdict on the steel plates. Old habits change hard.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that stones have been pushed and advertised for many years as the sole solution to a great homemade pie.

But if a steel plate delivers superior results in a home setting I might look into it. Given that my racks are a bit on the flimsy side as you can see, a 1/4" would have to do I guess. That's the same thickness I use in my LBE to buffer the flames from the burner underneath and that thing gets red hot!

Rotoflex offers steel decks so there must be a reason for it.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #651 on: July 21, 2011, 11:18:01 PM »
Mike,

I forgot to ask earlier, but have you tried heating your stone for, say, only 45 minutes to an hour and, if so, to what effect? In other words, is a 90 minute plus preheat mandatory to get the results you achieved?

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #652 on: July 21, 2011, 11:25:13 PM »
Mike,

I forgot to ask earlier, but have you tried heating your stone for, say, only 45 minutes to an hour and, if so, to what effect? In other words, is a 90 minute plus preheat mandatory to get the results you achieved?

Peter

Peter,

A 45 minute preheat will get me to about 500F, maybe 525F. Not much more than that. I usually do 90mins and always check with my IR.

So, yes, a 90 min preheat is what I gotta use with this particular stone.
Mike

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #653 on: July 21, 2011, 11:35:01 PM »
Mike, I just got back from looking at the ceramicssf site. Yup, 18 x 18 x 1.  It's disappointing that they don't sell a 17 x 17 x 1 stone.  If you cut off an inch, will a 17 x 18 x 1 stone fit in your oven?  If you're willing to do that, then that will give you the 4 minute bake.

1/4" steel plate, huh?  You just love cutting it close, don't you? ;D 1/4" steel at 620 f... 1/4" steel at 620 f... I don't know, maybe. On the positive side, 1/4" x 17" x 17" will probably run you as little as $20, so you might as well try it. I know I said that the heat from the bottom element can't reach the pizza with pizza stones, but 1/4" steel could very well be one of those very few exceptions to that rule. Another plus is that your pre-heats will be quick- most likely less than a half hour.

Think about 1/4" steel or 1" cordierite-mullite, and, if you get a chance, try timing one of Avellino's bakes.

And, in the meantime, do the 61% hydration/1% oil version you are planning.  Also, you might want to think about a 2% oil version.  Anything up to 3%, imo, is within the NY style parameter.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #654 on: July 21, 2011, 11:49:21 PM »
Mike, I just got back from looking at the ceramicssf site. Yup, 18 x 18 x 1.  It's disappointing that they don't sell a 17 x 17 x 1 stone.  If you cut off an inch, will a 17 x 18 x 1 stone fit in your oven?  If you're willing to do that, then that will give you the 4 minute bake.

1/4" steel plate, huh?  You just love cutting it close, don't you? ;D 1/4" steel at 620 f... 1/4" steel at 620 f... I don't know, maybe. On the positive side, 1/4" x 17" x 17" will probably run you as little as $20, so you might as well try it. I know I said that the heat from the bottom element can't reach the pizza with pizza stones, but 1/4" steel could very well be one of those very few exceptions to that rule. Another plus is that your pre-heats will be quick- most likely less than a half hour.

Think about 1/4" steel or 1" cordierite-mullite, and, if you get a chance, try timing one of Avellino's bakes.

And, in the meantime, do the 61% hydration/1% oil version you are planning.  Also, you might want to think about a 2% oil version.  Anything up to 3%, imo, is within the NY style parameter.

Scott,

Here's what common sense tells me (where's Red.November (RN) when you need him?? ;D).

A steel plate will heat up quicker and might get past my current stone temp of 620F within or before 90 mins. However, that would still require some modifications to the dough itself

A 1/4 steel plate will be different than a porous stone, I'm sure of that. I'll look around and see if I can find something adequate. In the meantime, given the results I have achieved, I'll make the tweaks and see how it comes out this weekend.

Thanks so much for all the advice, guys. Especially Peter & Scott.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #655 on: July 23, 2011, 11:28:32 PM »
I revised my "Avellino" formula I posted on Wednesday and not everything stayed the same as I thought it would previously.

I increased the individual weight of the dough ball from 391 grams to 425 grams to stay closer to the 0.08 TF, upped hydration value from 59% to 61%, increased the amount of oil from 0.5% to 1% and also gave the sugar amount a bump from 1% to 1.5%.

Here are the current numbers:

Flour      100%
Water      61%
IDY            .2%
Sea salt  1.5%
Oil             1%
O-Sugar  1.5%

Will be making a batch for four dough balls at 425 gr. each. I hope this will bring me a bit closer... :-\

Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #656 on: August 18, 2011, 10:05:31 PM »
Finally got my hands on Polly-O. Finally!

It's harder to find here in Cali but a family member had a meeting with some regional managers of our smaller independent supermarkets (Lunardi's) here in the Bay Area and while she was there brought me a couple of 16oz blocks.

I forgot that Lunardi's carried it, which is probably the only source here for Polly-O, until member Scott R refreshed my memory. I just love that cheese. Much better than anything around here, imho.



Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #657 on: August 22, 2011, 11:24:13 PM »
My mother requested a pizza today, calling me at 6:30am on my day off no less. She was the one who hooked me up with the Polly-O and was curious about how the cheese holds up on a pizza. At 6:30 am??

So, after getting another two hours of sleep in I started to scramble coming up with an emergency dough. I needed a short time window, 3 hours or less and came across Grilling 24x7's recipe, which Peter had converted first...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9453.msg81835.html#msg81835

And Peter's original:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7892.msg71897.html#msg71897

Yes, I know it's for newbies but so what? It worked. And amazingly well!

Even though I had only IDY I still proofed it until it foamed, added the dry and wet ingredients to the flour and let the mixer do its thing for about 6 mins. rested it for 20 mins, mixed it again for 4 mins and took it out of the bowl, balled it up and let it rise for 2 hours.

Then I punched it down, kneaded it and re-balled to let it rise again...this time in the fridge for one hour. Pre-heated the oven to about 600F, put it in and baked it for 9 minutes.

My mother was ecstatic. She claimed it was one of the better crusts I have made. I have to admit, it was a great one, nice crunch, nice texture. Overall it was a good formula that begs for a 24hr cold ferment to increase flavor.

It was topped with sauteed spinach, garlic, red onions, 'shrooms and black olives. Fresh basil went on afterwards.

Mike

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #658 on: August 22, 2011, 11:49:33 PM »
Mike,
That looks awesome! You did a great job in such a short time and even better,you did it for your Mom.Thats so nice of you to do that.I lost my mom to cancer in 2006 and wish I could make her a pizza today.I envy you here bro.
 :)
-Bill


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #659 on: August 22, 2011, 11:56:07 PM »
Mike,
That looks awesome! You did a great job in such a short time and even better,you did it for your Mom.Thats so nice of you to do that.I lost my mom to cancer in 2006 and wish I could make her a pizza today.I envy you here bro.
 :)


Bill,

I am really sorry to hear that!

I witnessed two of my closest family members, my Great-Grandmother and my Grandmother both from my Dad's side, pass away within weeks of each other. Hooked up to several hoses in a hospital and then die is not a way to leave this world.

Keep your Mom's memory close, bro. And...make pizzas that will envy the best of those posted here  ;)
Mike

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #660 on: August 23, 2011, 12:39:52 AM »
Mike,

Many Thanks for the kind words!!.Im sorry to hear about your losses as well.I can see you have been through alot yourself.I guess we all face these things one time or another.

For sure,will continue to strive to make pizzas better and better as much as I can do so.I post what I share and hope others can benefit or learn to do even more than I did.
 :)
-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #661 on: August 23, 2011, 07:02:54 AM »
Mike,

Your newbies quick dough pizza really looks delicious!  :)  Nice job, and especially since you made it for your mother.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #662 on: August 23, 2011, 12:11:59 PM »
Mike,

Very nice job, as usual. It helps to have an emergency dough recipe or two on hand to meet short term needs.

I would characterize your latest pizza as having shades of a Peter Reinhart NY style but without the high dough hydration. What you made is also close to a Papa John's clone pizza but with a bit thinner crust. If your mother liked your latest effort, she might also like a PJ emergency clone pizza as well. I described one such version at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. I just wouldn't use the words "Papa John's" to Mom. The mere utterance of such words are enough to induce some people, particularly pizza lovers, into a catatonic state. Another such word is "Domino's". I would simply describe the pizza as a "classic American style pizza" inspired by Tom Lehmann, a highly respected pizza expert.

BTW, what type and brand of flour did you use?

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #663 on: August 23, 2011, 12:13:55 PM »
Bill,

The way I see it is that it's part of life and nature. At some point, we'll all leave this planet.

But enough talk about death and sadness....let's enjoy pizza  :chef:


Norma,

I actually really liked the texture of the crust.

I was thoroughly impressed with the dough given the short time frame it was made in. And when my mother bit into the outer crust lengthwise it revealed an airy inside, almost Tartine bread-like. Very nice. And the coloration was phenomenal, better than I have achieved recently.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #664 on: August 23, 2011, 12:24:14 PM »
Mike,

Very nice job, as usual. It helps to have an emergency dough recipe or two on hand to meet short term needs.

I would characterize your latest pizza as having shades of a Peter Reinhart NY style but without the high dough hydration. What you made is also close to a Papa John's clone pizza but with a bit thinner crust. If your mother liked your latest effort, she might also like a PJ emergency clone pizza as well. I described one such version at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. I just wouldn't use the words "Papa John's" to Mom. The mere utterance of such words are enough to induce some people, particularly pizza lovers, into a catatonic state. Another such word is "Domino's". I would simply describe the pizza as a "classic American style pizza" inspired by Tom Lehmann, a highly respected pizza expert.

BTW, what type and brand of flour did you use?


Peter

Peter,

Thanks.  :)

I currently am still nursing a 50lb bag of ConAgra Harvest Bread Flour. Not a bad flour. My mother was really impressed with the dough. She made an interesting comment actually:

 "With a smaller outer crust and perhaps a bit thinner main crust, that could be close to an Avellino pizza"

I cant' mention the name Papa John's or Domino's. She's not a person that likes pizzas from chains. But either way, like I said before it's quite a good dough. I'm thinking of taking that formula and see if I can coax a 24 hr fermentation out of it. With less yeast, of course.
Mike

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Offline jpc

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #665 on: August 23, 2011, 07:03:35 PM »
Finally got my hands on Polly-O. Finally!

It's harder to find here in Cali but a family member had a meeting with some regional managers of our smaller independent supermarkets (Lunardi's) here in the Bay Area and while she was there brought me a couple of 16oz blocks.

I forgot that Lunardi's carried it, which is probably the only source here for Polly-O, until member Scott R refreshed my memory. I just love that cheese. Much better than anything around here, imho.


Which Lunardi's carries it?  I haven't seen it in the Campbell (formerly Cosentino's) location.  Being a former east coaster, I'd love to find some...


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #666 on: August 23, 2011, 07:08:28 PM »
JPC,

There is no Lunardi's in Southern Cali as far as I know. They're a local, independent supermarket in the Bay Area.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #667 on: August 23, 2011, 07:19:23 PM »
JPC,

Wait, my bad. You meant the Campbell/San Jose location  :-[  Whoops.

Here's a tip: They store Polly-O not in their cheese counter or the cheese display on the floor. It's usually where the milk is, as far as I remember. But maybe not all locations carry it. The one in Belmont does, though. Or try the Los Gatos location which is closer to you.

I'd call first before making the trip.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 07:21:20 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #668 on: August 24, 2011, 01:38:27 AM »
After brooding a bit over Tom's Emergency Formula whenever I had a chance at work today, which can be found here by member Grilling24x7 - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9453.msg81835.html#msg81835 - about how to expand the fermentation time to 24 hrs without losing all the nice characteristics of the crust I came up with this formula:

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (.6%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (6.5%):
Sugar (3.5%):
Total (169.6%):
Single Ball:
509.18 g  |  17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs
290.23 g  |  10.24 oz | 0.64 lbs
3.06 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
10.18 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
33.1 g | 1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.35 tsp | 2.45 tbsp
17.82 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.47 tsp | 1.49 tbsp
863.57 g | 30.46 oz | 1.9 lbs | TF = 0.07575
431.78 g | 15.23 oz | 0.95 lbs

I lowered the yeast amount, increased the water amount a tiny little bit, lowered the sugar value since a longer fermentation will bring out the natural sugars in the flour, increasing the total value, but raised the salt level by .25 points to control fermentation. At least that's the plan.  :-\  Don't know if it'll work but we'll see.

I will also do an individual dough ball rise since I am apparently the only one on here who does the bulk rise.  ???

So I'm switching things up and will experiment a bit more with single/individual fermentation instead of bulk. Will definitely be beneficial regarding the outcome and learning curve.

I'll report back. In the meantime, comments are welcome as always.
Mike

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #669 on: September 01, 2011, 10:41:48 AM »
On my phone, so I cannot post links, but Pizzeria Avellino was reviewed on Slice today....someone reading this thread and looking at the Avellino pictures posted here may have suggested Slice check it out  :)

Pizza in the Slice review doesn't look as good as what's been posted here. -k
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #670 on: September 01, 2011, 11:51:15 AM »
PB,

Here's the story behind Avellino as was told to me by Marcello's owners Luc & Annie.

When Avellino first opened, they offered a rustic type of pizza, thin-crust but not necessarily NY-style. The guy who first opened the place was a former employee at Marcello's. After about 6 or 8 months he had to sell it for reasons I'm not familiar with.

Then the current guys took over and from what I know, they're from New York. I have never heard that any of them have worked at Arinell's. But it could be true. However, I had both and must say that Avellino is a much better crust than Arinell's in my book. But I guess that also depends on who you ask.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #671 on: September 01, 2011, 11:59:44 AM »
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 03:54:00 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #672 on: September 01, 2011, 12:15:27 PM »
A couple of excerpts from reviews of the early days of Avellino:

Quote
8/31/2009

This place is great.  If you ask me, what makes a really good pizza is the cheese.  Sauce is one thing, crust is also important, but without good cheese you don't really have pizza.  The cheese here is amazing, just enough gorgonzola to be noticed, but not enough to overpower.  My wife and I really like the rustica style pies, but then again we are from the west coast.  They make enough types of pies that people with a new york bias won't be disappointed.  All are affordable, and slices are available for those who are too timid to get a whole pie.  Seriously, though, if you just get a slice what are you going to eat for breakfast the next morning?

My three boys love both the new york style and the rustica.  The toppings are really good as well.  Outdoor seating will be great for sunny days, and for a place that has only been open a very short while, it is run well.  Again, though I have to mention the pizza rustica, either four-cheese or prosciutto, are worth selling heirloom jewelry for.  Good thing, though, the prices are low enough so that won't come up.

and...

Quote
11/22/2009

Very disappointed that they have changed their menu and no longer make rustic pizzas -such as prosciutto, 4 cheeses, and/or Greco  which were my favorites. They seem to be heading in the direction of becoming a generic pizza restaurant and it's a shame. i guess I'll just go to A-16 for my pizza.


No more rustic pies when the new guys took over.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #673 on: September 15, 2011, 12:49:09 PM »
Went back to Avellino yesterday evening with a buddy of mine for more slices.

We both had a hard time pinpointing the flavors of the crust. The other difference I noticed was that the slices cracked on the bottom. The exterior of the crust was very crunchy but had a moist, almost creamy-like interior. I wasn't really able to detect any noticeable amounts of salt but we both agreed that the crust had some sugar in it. Salt was tougher.

The slices were great as usual. We didn't order a whole pie so I wasn't able to check on their bake times and noone else there ordered a whole one, either.

Sorry about the pic quality. They were taken with my and his cell phone. I also had to enhance a couple of them to show the crust a bit better.

I will have to go back and order a whole pie...
Mike

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scott123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #674 on: September 15, 2011, 01:52:01 PM »
Mike, great additional detective work. I'm curious, were the previous photos from Avellino's re-heated slices or were they from entire pies?

I know some people like that extra crispiness you get from reheating, but I like it floppy.


 

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