Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project (Read 81445 times)

Essen1 · « **on:** March 01, 2009, 05:34:26 PM »

Hi folks...

Well, since the weather hasn’t been playing along during the last few of months - too much rain, too cold and windy – I had the chance to focus on baking pizza in my home oven, instead of using my LBE outdoors. That allowed me to play around with new flours such as the Stone-Buhr from Washington State, and on a couple of rare occasions, freshly milled, or self-milled at my grocery store I should say, Montana Wheat flour.

I didn’t like the MWF, but the Stone-Buhr has potential, although it is made from the MWF. I particularly liked the browning capabilities of the SB flour and the higher protein content (up to 14%), even though my first pie I made with SB flour didn’t turn out the way I wanted it to. But the rest of the batch did, probably due to the fact that I allowed more rise time (one more day in the fridge).

I would have to look a bit deeper into the flour and its complete potential in regards to flavor, handling and baking characteristics, compared to the KABF, which I have been using almost exclusively.

Anyway, I focused the last couple of months on making an authentic NYC-style pizza, or at least try to get close to it, and I think so far I’m on the right path. I do think though that my formula needs some minor adjustments, but I’m happy so far that my pies displayed some of the NYC pizza characteristics such as the slices being foldable, their floppiness at the tip, the chew and crunch when you bite into them and the thinness, of course.

I have also tinkered around with different bake times, 7, 9 and 11 mins, with roughly a minute each under the broiler to finish the pizza off and to give it some additional color; fermentation times, ranging from 3-5 day cold rises to 24 hr doughs and the shortest was a 7 hr emergency dough. The cold-rise doughs had the best flavor, no doubt, but I also was surprised how well the shorter fermented doughs turned out, not so much in flavor but in handling and oven spring. Those short-term doughs are good if you crave a pie on the fly. The only problem I ran into recently and I still don’t know if it was the yeast or perhaps a “bad” batch of flour, was that that particular batch came out flat and didn’t show as much rise as I liked to have. But I digress.

Another thing worth mentioning is that when using the broiler I tend to let the pizza rest outside the oven for about a minute to two minutes. In doing so, I noticed that a shorter time is required under the broiler than moving the pizza straight up from the stone.

I also gave different mozzarella brands a go and found that Trader Joe’s had the best overall value for the money, especially their fresh mozzarella balls and logs. However, for the NY-style pizza I used a blend of TJ’s low-moist. /part-skim mozzarella and TJ’s whole milk/low-moisture mozzarella, with a few little pieces of fresh mozza thrown on top before it went under the broiler.

Having used Polly-O, the Precious brand and imported mozzarella in the past, with great results, I think the TJ combination is so far my favorite when it comes to use in a home oven. I don’t think, though, that blend would be suitable for the LBE. For that, I’ll probably use the TJ fresh mozza log. And since TJ’s sells plum tomatoes (28oz ca / $1.99) I thought I see how they turn out in my sauce but I wasn’t really that impressed. 6 in 1 is still my first choice for the sauce.

Anyway, here are a couple of dough formulas I used, to try to replicate a NY-style pizza:

Stone-Buhr Flour (3 balls , 14”, 325gr. each, Bake time: 9 mins)

577 gr. Flour (100%)
363 gr. Water (63%)
17 gr. Sea salt (3%)
12 gr. Olive oil (2%)
3 gr. IDY (0.5%)
3 gr. Sugar (0.5%)

The outer crust turned out to be a tad too hard and dry but that could adjusted with a shorter bake time. The taste was great, though.

King Arthur BF (3 balls, 14”, 325 gr. each, Bake time: 7 mins)

587 gr. Flour (100%)
370 gr. Water (63%)
9 gr. Sea salt (1.5%)
6 gr. Olive oil (1%)
2 gr. IDY (0.3%)

No sugar this time.

The crust turned out amazingly good. It was foldable, had a nice flavor and chew to it and the outer crust wasn’t tough and dry like the one with the SB flour. I do think though that the SB flour is a good alternative to KABF, if that shouldn’t be available.

Despite all the nice characteristics both crusts displayed, I still would like my crust to be a bit more airy and lighter.

Any suggestions are more than welcome.

Some pics…(1st one is the Stone-Buhr, rest KABF)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #1 on:** March 01, 2009, 05:54:39 PM »

Mike,

I like the looks of the KABF pie. The dough formulation you used for that pizza is very close to the basic Lehmann NY style.

From what I have seen of the NY style pizzas in my visits to NYC, and from I have heard those who have spent meaningful parts of their lives in NYC, the NY style pizza and, in particular, the NY street style, does not have a large rim. However, I know that a lot of our members like that. What you could try is to keep your hydration at the present value, and maybe even a bit higher if you can manage it, jack up the amount of yeast, maybe to something over 1% IDY, and shoot for about one day of cold fermentation and possibly two days. I would try to keep everything on the cold side, especially if you want to extend the fermentation beyond one day to get more byproducts of fermentation to contribute to the flavors, color, aroma and texture of the finished crust. Once you see the results and have a chance to analyze them, you can decide in which direction to take your dough formulation the next time. Most professionals wouldn't use the above regimen because the dough balls will expand a lot more than desired for a commercial operation and require too much attention. They want their dough balls to be well behaved and just quietly sit there in a rather comatose state until they give up their lives to customers. In a home setting, our dough balls don't have to extend the same obeisance and we will usually be more tolerant of misconduct.

Peter

Essen1 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 01, 2009, 06:24:45 PM »

Peter,

Thanks for the suggestions. I always appreciate them.

I currently have two dough balls in the fridge...well, one's out on the counter to come up to room temp, where I have increased the IDY amount to 3 gr. in the KABF formula. I did keep the hydration level as is, though, but will follow your direction and increase it to 64% percent.

I have numerous notes scribbled down on cue cards and just yesterday bought a notebook to organize them a bit better and to have something other than loose cards handy in the kitchen when making a new dough.

I also followed Tdeane's suggestion regarding the mixing when using a KA mixer, 2 mins mix - 20 mins rest followed by a 15 min knead. I saw that Alton Brown recommended almost an identical procedure in one of his "Good Eats" episodes. The dough that came out of the mixer was very soft and almost "silky" in nature. I have usually used a shorter mixing time with my previous doughs, including the ones pictured.

I'll take more pics of the pie from tonight and hopefully I'll get closer to my goal.

What about sugar in the KABF formula? I have a feeling that the sugar added a bit to the toughness/dryness of the SBF crust. Could that be the problem?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2009, 07:30:47 PM »

Mike,

Autolyse and similar rest periods are an effective way of getting good dough volume and a decent crumb texture and color. But I have always had mixed feelings on the use of autolyse in the context of pizza dough as opposed to bread dough, which is where the concept of autolyse originated. On the one hand, I like the concept of autolyse and its effect on reducing production time and reducing oxidation of the dough and protecting carotenoids, and also producing a crust with greater volume, a good cell structure, and a more supple crumb (at least according to Professor Calvel who was the father of the autolyse method), but on the other hand those qualities are more bread-like that what I prefer in a finished crust. I started using autolyse and similar rest periods sometime back in 2004, including using it in the context of a Lehmann NY style dough, as I discussed in Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5442.html#msg5442. As I noted in that post, I thought that the finished crust was too soft for my taste. On other occasions I mentioned how I found the crumb of an autolysed dough to be too breadlike, much as a common supermarket bread. I mention these points only so that you are on alert to examine closely the results you get to see if they mimic my experiences. I should also mention that most people like autolyse much better than I do. You may well feel likewise.

As to the effects of sugar in the SB dough, I don't think that it was responsible for the toughness and dryness of the finished crust. Sugar is hygroscopic and tends to help retain moisture in the dough, not to induce dryness. That is one of the reasons why American style doughs typically contain a lot of sugar, for its contribution to tenderness of the finished crust. I have read about the SB flour but have not tried it before, so it is hard to comment on it. It may have been the longer bake time that you used for the SB pizza, which might have been responsible for the dryer crust and an increased sense of toughness because of the loss of more moisture.

Peter

Essen1 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 01, 2009, 10:35:30 PM »

Peter,

I have used the autolyse process before with good results, even to a point where I obtained a huge cornicione. I'd like to keep it somewhere in between the outer crust in the pictures and a tad bigger.

As I said in my other post, the one where I mentioned the revolving oven and Marcello's pizza, I'd like to get close to their crust. However, I've tried to talk to them on my last visit and it seems they are very reluctant to give out any info. I asked about the sauce, for example, and they just said that they make it themselves. No name brand of tomatoes were given out, whether they're canned or fresh tomatoes, etc.

I have eaten at a lot of pizza place here in SF and the US, but have never experienced a crust like Marcello's produces. I will take another lunch at their place on Tuesday and take my cam with me to snap some close ups of their slices.

Anyway, back to the kneading and mixing procedure I used to make the dough you see in the pics. I made them on Friday night, did a bulk cold-rise for 24hrs, then divided them into individual balls (made a pie last night but forgot to take pics) and refrigerated the other two for tonight.

There first couple of pics were taken after I weight the chunks of dough (325 gr. each), then flattened them with the palm of my hand before balling them up. A couple of pics are a little blurry but you get the idea.

I'll have more pics of tonight's pizza (stone's heating up)...

JConk007 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2009, 08:07:01 AM »

Mike,
I also prefer the KA flour pies you put forth. They look great! and very New Yorkish! very similar to result I get with a similar recipe and percentages and as mentioned smaller rim size. I too have in the fridge the Peter Reinharts NY style dough (pg 114 american pie) I am taking it to 4 days we will see! The recipe says freeze any pieces you will not use the next day? Think I'll be ok ? made both doughs fri. night Had pizza sat (Deep dish), sun NY, mon off tues NY PR style. Yum! Life is good!

John

Essen1 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2009, 05:16:17 PM »

JC,

Nice looking pies! Great job.

I don't own any pizza books so I usually go by what I have eaten before or which style I prefer, and try to get as close to it as I can. That's where the whole fun lies for me. It seems it's a never ending journey.

Anyway, last night's pie had a puffier outer crust, but was almost paper thin in the center, tapering off to a little thicker crust toward the edge. But what irked me about it was that the slices weren't as easily foldable as the last ones I made. I wonder if it has something to do with the extended kneading time I applied?

I did like the effects the increased amount of IDY had on the dough. Next up will be an increased hydration of 64%, compared to the 63% I used.

The dough was extremely easy to handle and very "soft", though, and had great window-paning.

I topped it with Ham, Mushrooms and Olives. I tried to take a pic of some slices but they didn't support the weight of the toppings. Gotta work on that, too.

Mad_Ernie · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:28:04 AM »

Mike:

Guten morgan. As usual, you have come up with some great looking pizza pies, and my appetite will not be satisfied until I find (or make) something similar.

I was wondering about your baking of the pizzas. You mentioned using a broiler for a minute or 2 to finish them off. Can you give us some more details on that? Is your oven set for 500 degrees F? 550? Do you just immediately flip the oven over to broiler mode or is there an intermediate period of time?

Thanks and keep the delicious pictures of your progress coming,

-ME

Essen1 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2009, 01:23:22 PM »

Guten Morgen, ME!

Glad you like the pizzas.

I preheat my oven for about an hour, stone on the lowest rack at 500° F. Well, that's actually where the temp indication ends. However, the knob can be turned a little past 500° F and when I do that the oven doesn't stop heating. The highest stone temp I got, though, was 625° as you can see in the pic. Usually my stone temp is around 590° - 610° on average.

I have experimented with different bake times as I have described earlier and once that time's up, I switch over to the broiler, and for the time it takes the broiler to fully heat up I pull the pie out and keep it on the peel before it goes back in. In that case it has a little time to settle a bit. I also throw some pieces of fresh mozzarella on top while it's sitting outside.

The bake time under the broiler varies. I'd say it normally is a minute but honestly, it is sometimes 30 secs, 45 secs etc. I do keep an eye on it and turn it once because I don't want it burnt, just slightly charred.

Hope that explains it a bit better.

Essen1 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2009, 07:18:10 PM »

On Monday I made a new batch and followed Peter's advice and increased the hydration to 64% and jacked up the IDY from the previous 2% to 3%.

I did a 24hr cold-rise and when I took it out of the fridge, I divided the dough into two individual balls at 375gr. each, even though my formulation called for a 435gr. individual weight for a 16" pie. The reason for the difference was that at first I contemplated to make a 16" pizza but then had second thoughts and opted for a 14" instead. I let one dough ball come up to room temp while covered with a damp kitchen towel and the other went into a sealed container and into the fridge for tonight's use. The pizza was topped with sliced olives and pepperoni.

The bake time was 10 mins at 610° F, too long in my opinion, because the bottom crust turned out a little to crispy for my taste and didn't really resemble what I was shooting for. However, it was still foldable, had great taste, chew and the toppings were supported albeit the floppiness at the tip of the slice, as you can see in the pic.

The formula was otherwise dead on...thanks Peter!

516 gr. KABF (100%)
330 gr. Water (64%)
10 gr. Sea Salt (1.9%)
10 gr. Olive Oil (1.9%)
3 gr. IDY (0.6%)
3 gr. Sugar (0.6%)

I used the same mixing process as before, 2 mins to get everything incorporated, 20 mins rest and then 10 mins at speed 2 instead of the 15 mins I did before. The dough had a temperature of 80° F when it came out of the bowl. I then shaped it into a ball, put it into a glass bowl and into the fridge for 24 hrs.

I think I screwed up the bake time and will shoot for a 7-8 min BT for the next doughball that's still in the fridge. The crust has potential but now the question is how do I adjust it and make it usable for my LBE at temps exceeding the 650° F mark?

Some pics...

Essen1 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2009, 03:31:47 PM »

I read in the NY Times a couple of days ago, that the famous, and undoubtedly one of the best NYC pizzerias operating today, Totonno’s on Coney Island, got struck by a fire. Unfortunately, I never have had the pleasure of eating in Mrs. Ciminieri's establishment.

But it got me thinking...is it possible to reverse-engineer a crust based on descriptions alone? Especially of a place with that kind of a reputation, being one of the best in the U.S.?

Well, what I did was I looked at a few videos on YouTube, read numerous articles in different websites, but what spilled the most information was from reviewers on Yelp.

The reviews were especially helpful in obtaining a "visual" image of the crust in my head, due to all different types of opinions. What stuck out to me was one guy asking if anyone else noted a hint of garlic in the crust. It goes to show, when I read those reviews, that New Yorkers DO know their pizza, no matter what walk of life they're from. So I read all 63 of them.

A couple of videos on YouTube also mentioned something about the characteristics of the crust..."almost Italian country bread-like", chewy, etc.

So, I looked at some of the pics Yelp reviewers posted and detected a slight semolina trace, as you can see in the pics labeled Totonno's. If you save them and then zoom in, you'll see what I mean. I read all of the Yelp reviews and more...because I think although opinions differ, it's still an amazing source of information if you want to reverse-engineer a specific crust.

With that said, I started my quest on Monday at 3:30 pm, hitting the kitchen with the specific goal in mind to create a Totonno's crust that was described by many online. I finished at 8:30pm.

Here's what happened within those five hours...

First off, I looked at the cross section of one of the pics. The crust struck me as a dense, bread-like type. I then took a closer look at the way the top of the rim and I noticed tiny little, sometimes black, remnants of what seems to be grains of semolina. Very small.

Other reviewers said that the crust was light and very airy, but crunchy at the same time, with a nicely charred edge and bottom, which added to the flavor. One guy was paying a total homage, in a very well-written manner, to Totonno’s and provided a lot of info. It was well written in a way that you can almost picture the crust right in front of you.

Off to the kitchen I went.

I remembered what Peter told me some days ago about achieving a lighter, more airy crust, and it proved to be very helpful. I did, however, make some additional adjustments by increasing the oil value, mostly. And with that “Garlic” reference in mind, I used garlic-infused olive oil. The finished flavor simply blew me away, but I’m sure it could be a little intensified with let’s say a 24 hr cold-rise.

So…452 gr. of warm water went into the mixing bowl, together with 18 gr. of sea salt and 12 gr. of organic sugar. It was completely dissolved with a wire whisk.

The flour was a combination of 50% Giusto’s and 50% of KABF. Sifted together to add a bit more air. 50% went into the salt/sugar water and then the paddle of my KA mixer put it all together at speed 1 at first, since you don’t want to blow out the flour, and then on speed 2 until it reached a smooth, batter-like consistency. I let it rest for about 30 mins after that.

Small bubbles have formed after 30 mins and I sifted in the rest of the flour, added the garlic olive oil and started to combine it all, using the dough hook. I started out on Speed 1 but quickly switched to Speed 2 for 5 minutes. After those 5 minutes I let the dough rest for about 10 mins before proceeding for another 10 minutes of kneading at Speed 2, stopping the mixer twice, turning the dough hook so it engages the dough from a different angle, mixing it more thoroughly. Another rest period of 5 minutes followed. 10 more minutes of mixing at Speed 2 and into the fridge it went for about an hour. I balled it up into a bulk, greased the bowl with a bit of EVOO and cooled it for about an hour before taking 400 gr. and shaping it into a single ball.

400 gr. was too much, though, for a 14” thin crust pie. I let the 400 gr. ball come up to room temp for about 2.5 hrs, covered with a damp tea towel. As you can see in the pics, the crust is a tad too thick, albeit being airy and light. But too thick for my liking. However, the crust was good and one of my test eaters, who’s a pizza fanatic to the core, said the crust was fantastic. But I know myself and there’s always somewhere a little room for improvement. First change will be to use less dough for a 14”. Instead of 400 gr., I’ll use around 325 gr. next time.

When topping the crust, I followed Totonno’s procedure and put the cheese on first and then the sauce. The pie was topped with red bell peppers, which I didn’t pre-cook in order to retain some of the crunch, mild Italian sausage, fresh garlic - chopped, and fresh mushrooms. I drizzled some EVOO on it and a little bit of sea salt before it went into the oven. When it came out, I dusted the pizza with Pecorino Romano and fresh basil.

The stone was preheated on the lowest rack for about 90 mins and the bake time was 8 mins. No use of the broiler this time.

Here’s the entire formula and procedure (taken straight from my notes I scribbled down while in the process):

707 gr. KABF/Giusto’s Flour   100%
452 gr. Water (warm)       64%
18 gr. fine sea salt        2.5%
12 gr. garli-infused olive oil    1.7%
11 gr. organic sugar       1.5%
4 gr. IDY           0.6%

Pour water in mixing bowl. Dissolve salt & sugar in water. Sift in 50% of the flour mix and all the yeast. And mix with paddle until a smooth batter has formed. Rest for 30 mins. Sift in rest of the flour and add the oil. Switch to dough hook and combine everything, 5 mins/Speed 1. Rest for 10 mins. Knead for 10 mins on Speed 2, rest for another 5 mins. Knead again for 10 mins on Speed 2. The dough temp was 80° F. Ball it; let rest for 10 min. Put in fridge for 1 hour. Take out and immediately divide into three 400 gr. balls and let proof (2.5hrs/covered) or put one or two balls back in fridge for next day use.

Below are some pics and some from Totonno’s for comparison.

Essen1 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2009, 03:33:18 PM »

And some of the Totonno's pics...

Essen1 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2009, 06:03:06 PM »

Here's a great slide show, picturing the crust I'm after...it's bad that a place like Totonno's burned down.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/slice/sets/72157603240411946/show/

Pete-zza · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2009, 07:56:56 PM »

Mike,

Nice job. I can see some of the Totonno's crust features you were after.

I have never done extensive research on the Totonno's pizza, mainly because I don't have an oven that would do the pizza justice, but did you do any research on the dough and other ingredients used by Totonno's to make their pizzas. For example, I understand that Totonno's at one time was one of the few remaining old school NYC pizza operators to use all-purpose flour to make their dough, and that the only ingredients in the dough were flour, water, salt and yeast. The mozzarella cheese was a fresh, sliceable mozzarella cheese, the tomatoes were a puree of imported Italian tomatoes, the oil was Felippo Berio olive oil, the grated cheese was Pecorino Romano, and the herb was dried marjoram. Has any of this changed?

I saw at the Totonno's website, at http://www.totonnos.com/MenuHome.html, that two sizes of pizzas are offered but no mention of what those sizes are. Do you know? According to what Evelyne Slomon once told me, Totonno's used a 15-16 ounce dough ball to make a 15" pizza. That translates into a thickness factor of 0.0848827-0.0905415. For a 14" pizza such as you have been making, that would mean a dough ball weight of 13.07 ounces (370.44 g) to 13.94 ounces (395.15 g). From what I have read generally about the elite NY styles, I would think that the lower thickness factor would be the closer value.

In the course of your research, were you able to determine what kind of flour Totonno's uses and how they ferment their dough, i.e., at room temperature or in a cooler?

FYI, at Evelyne's restaurant, Nizza La Bella, she pays homage to Jerry Totonno by naming a white pizza after him: http://www.nizzalabella.com/dinnermenu.html.

Peter

Essen1 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:17:59 PM »

Peter,

Thanks for the pointers. And the compliment!

I have only started out a couple of days ago to look a little deeper into their crust, but I knew about the fresh mozzarella, the dried marjoram instead of basil they use, the pecorino romano and the tomato sauce, which apparently Totonno's uses straight up with nothing added to it. And as far as I'm aware of, the sizes haven't changed, either. So I don't think much has changed at all.

I haven't gotten as far as the olive oil or the dough weight, but thanks for letting me in on it. Like I said, unfortunately I wasn't able to enjoy their crust first hand, but my estimate in regards to the doughball weight for a 14" crust was more in the range of 325gr. - 350 gr. The 400 gr. I used seemed way too much, hence the thicker crust.

In terms of the flour and what kind of fermentation they use, I'm still in the dark on this one. And it might be a tough thing to find out. But my guess is it must be a flour that can withstand the scorching heat of their oven. Maybe it's a combination of two flours?

Evelyne's restaurant isn't that far from me, just across the Bay bridge so perhaps a visit is in order and check out her Totonno's crust.

Either way, I think it is worth to look deeper into Totonno's crust since it is one of the greatest places for pizza in the U.S., especially when the weather gets better and I can use higher temps with my LBE.

johnnytuinals · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:20:33 PM »

Essen1
Your Pizza looks greattttttttt
Only if I could make a round pizza instead part round and part square lol....JT

Jackitup · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:34:19 PM »

Mike,
Nice looking pies there brother. I shouldn't be looking at this stuff with my kitchen remodel going, getting a real bad pizza jones roaring here!! I went ahead and made a crust tonite with hopes of using it on Sunday, trying out Glutenboys crust formulation this time. Hopefully the kitchen will be ready to go by then?

Got some sauerkraut brats going on the grill for tonite and maybe a beer or six to go with it

Jon

Essen1 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:10:53 PM »

JT & Jon,

Thanks for the nice words! But as usual crusts can always use and, especially this one, need improvements.

Have another dough ball out and will have another go at it.

Jackitup · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2009, 05:44:13 AM »

it's called chasing the dragon

Essen1 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 29, 2009, 08:56:21 PM »

Jon,

When I get it right you can call me Dragon Slayer!

Anyway, here's a pizza what I call Pizza Mexicana and it was only upon request by my folks, because I don't put pineapple on my pies. However, it blended nicely with the spicy Jalapenos.

Anyway, the flour was Stone-Buhr and I had to leave the crust a bit thicker because of all the toppings. Turned out quite well but my next one will be a back-to-basics and chasing-the-elusive NY pie pizza.

Mushrooms, fresh red bellers, red onion, fresh Jalapenos, Kalamata olives, fresh garlic, artichokes and pineapple. Cheese was freshly grated low-moisture mozzarella (Precious brand).

Overall it was a good pizza and the folks loved it.