next »

[pizzablogger]

Peter, that is a very helpful point.

It is interesting, and I appreciate those kind of insights into the more truly commercial pizza world. It has been far too long since I have stepped foot in a larger/higher volume pizzeria (Papa John's, Pizza Hut, Ray's Famous, etc), as in several years, and I was unaware these types of operators were dividing up front and then refrigerating.

My limited experience comes from working in one bread bakery, where the dough was bulk fermented in a walk-in cooler, usually in 55 gallon food grade containers on dollies. There are also two pizza places here in town that bulk ferment their dough in a cooler environment, but these are much smaller pizza shops privately owned and with only one location.

As always, thanks for the insights Peter. --PB   

[Matthew]

Hey Mike,
Hope all is well bro.  Getting a little cool for the WFO; the experience isn't the same without the hot weather.  Besides my 2 year old & 4 year old don't make it any easier.  Anyhow, inspired by this thread I'm going to make a 16" NY pie on Sunday.  It's been a while since my focus all spring & summer was on Neapolitan, but I'm going to put my best foot forward & give it a shot.  I'll have some pics Sunday.

Take Care,
Matt

[Essen1]

Hey Mike,
Hope all is well bro.  Getting a little cool for the WFO; the experience isn't the same without the hot weather.  Besides my 2 year old & 4 year old don't make it any easier.  Anyhow, inspired by this thread I'm going to make a 16" NY pie on Sunday.  It's been a while since my focus all spring & summer was on Neapolitan, but I'm going to put my best foot forward & give it a shot.  I'll have some pics Sunday.

Take Care,
Matt

Matt,

All's well here in the Bay Area. Hope you're doing good, too.

Toronto has cold winters, I know. Maybe that's a good thing because it'll get you to work, after focusing on Neapolitan pizze all summer, back to the basics and the good ol' NY style pies? Should be fun. 

Btw, what's up with the Maple Leafs this season??? One win so far? Ron Wilson was pretty successful here in San Jose but can't seem to get it going in Toronto.

[Essen1]

Okay, on Thursday I tinkered around a bit more with the Lehmann formula I used and posted in my earlier post.

The only thing I did differently was I raised the hydration from 62 to 63%. I also used the flour combo I used before of 50/50 Stone-Buhr BF and KABF. I really am starting to like this combination. It gives the dough a unique texture, I think. The dough management procedure after mixing, a 20 min autolyse and 15 mins kneading time was the same as Mr. Lehmann advocates, meaning I divided the dough up into individual balls right when it came out of the bowl.

The cold fermentation time was 20 hrs. However, the last time I let the dough balls come up to room temp for about 2 hrs. This time I reduced it to only one hour, remembering what Luc, the owner of Marcello's, told me once which whas that she uses the dough balls as cold as possible.

I also re-calibrated my home oven because I noticed a little loss in heat recently and longer heating times of 1.5 hrs compared to 1 hr or so before to bring the stone to full temperature. Well, it was back up to temp within an hour and the stone topped out at around 624°F. The first picture shows the temp and it didn't get much hotter than that.

Bake time was again 8 mins with an additional one minute under the broiler to finish it off.

The texture of the crust was a crisp, chewy with some nice crunch to it but was still soft enough to fold ieasily and without the bottom crust cracking in half, which is what I like. It turned out to be a tad more 'rustic' then my previous versions but I do like that quite a bit. I also used a individual dough weight of 370gr for a 14" pie.

The first pie was a plain cheese, topped with whole milk mozzarella from Trader Joe's. I like it because it does have a creamier texture than the Precious or Safeway brands. My favorite is Grande but it's too expensive over here so the next best thing is the TJ brand. I gave it a nice dusting with dried Oregano and Grana Padano cheese after it came out of the oven. Tasted great.

The second pizza was a simple mushroom and ham one. Same bake time.

[Glutenboy]

Beeeeautiful! 

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I agree. Great looking pizzas. How did they compare with the other NY style pizzas you have attempted in this thread.

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

I agree. Great looking pizzas. How did they compare with the other NY style pizzas you have attempted in this thread.

Peter

I don't know, to be honest.

I'm really starting to like the Lehmann formula so far. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to undermine his authority or trying to come across as pompous but I think it has a lot of potential when I take into account what Luc told me in regards to tailoring the formula to the specific oven you'll be baking with. When I said I never used the Lehmann formula before, I guess that statement was wrong because I did. But it was with my LBE and it didn't turn out well, so I never bothered with it again until recently.

Anyway, I really enjoyed a few of my formulas, especially the one in Reply #27 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg72211.html#msg72211. Then there's the KABF pie from the start of this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg69553.html#msg69553 and the ones I made recently in Reply # 149 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg82385.html#msg82385.

Although they were all great pizzas, the formulas do leave room for some more experimenting. I'm starting to think that the bulk-rise process isn't that much better for a NY-style pizza compared to the individual rise Lehmann and most other pizza operators suggest and recommend. As a matter of fact, I went to my local NY-style pizza joint right around the corner from my business and asked him, when I saw a 14" sausage pie coming fresh out of the oven, about his baking times, oven temp and dough procedure. He said he only bakes at a deck temp of 550°F (Baker's Pride oven), never does a bulk rise only individual rise, makes his dough fresh each day, uses a flour I have never heard of, Power Flour, and stressed the importance of the water temp and amount, just like Luc did. The baking time for a 14", and in particular the sausage one that just came out of the oven, was 15 mins. He said that sometimes it goes down to 12 mins, if the oven gets really hot.

Another thing I noticed and helped the latest crusts' texture was the use of the flour combination of Stone Buhr and King Arthur BF. It happened just in the spur of the moment where I thought "How would the two together work?" and so far it's been surprisingly good. Maybe some other members here could try it and post their findings to see how they like it or how it works for them and if there are significant differences compared to their regular formulas.

Anyway, I hope that answered your question.  A little long-winded but it's better to be detailed than leaving questions behind. I'm sure, though, once I get to test my dough in the Rotoflex, I'll have a whole bunch of other stuff to report. 


Glutenboy,

Thanks for the compliment! 

I'm sure, if there were such a thing as a "Bow!" feature among the Emoticons offered, you'd use it. Juuust kidding 

[cup-o-pizza]

Those are great looking pizzas!  I like how airy the rim of your crust is.  Do you attribute that to the higher cooking temp?  The type of flour you use?  A combination of things?

Matt

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

You should be proud of the pizzas you referenced. They are great looking pizzas.

Pretty much all of the NY style dough formulations, including the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, owe their origins to the old, classic NY style dough recipes, starting with those adapted for coal fired and other very high temperature ovens and, later, gas fired deck ovens when oil and sugar started to be included in the dough formulations, along with lower salt levels (see Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384). If you want to read Evelyne Slomon's account of how Tom Lehmann came up with his NY style dough formulation, read Reply 606 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054/topicseen.html#msg41054. The starting point for the basic Lehmann thread was Tom's NY style dough formulation. It is, and always has been, a commercial dough formulation intended for professionals, not home pizza hobbyists. Hence, the use of individual dough balls cut from the bulk dough and placed in coolers. Tweaking Tom's dough formulation to exclude sugar and oil, or to use both, or to use other high-protein flours and different hydration values, are just a typical modifications of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to adapt it to particular ovens, bake times and personal preferences.

Peter

[Essen1]

Those are great looking pizzas!  I like how airy the rim of your crust is.  Do you attribute that to the higher cooking temp?  The type of flour you use?  A combination of things?

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for the compliment! 

I'd like to think it's a combination of things, mainly the hydration level and yeast level. The fermentation time and individual bulk rise might have something to do with it, too. And like I said, I am really getting fond of the flour combo.


Peter,

Thanks for the links! And the reassurance regarding my pies! 

It was very informative what Evelyne had to say in that post you referenced. When I tried to describe the Marcello's crust I used the "light as air" phrase just like Evelyne did with the Totonno's crust. I'm sure, though, both formulas are two different pair of shoes but regardless of that, it's basically what I'm after. Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of eating at Totonno's yet so I can only use the Marcello crust as a guideline.

Another thing is, if one were to use Evelyne's formula at home, the hydration level would have to be raised since our ovens don't go much higher than maybe 600°F, which would mean a longer bake time than the 3 or 4 mins the Totonno's pies bake, for example.

Unfortunately, she doesn't indicate at what oven temperature the dough formula should be used/baked.

[NY pizzastriver]

Mike, you're a genius pie craftsman. The last 2 pies look like you went to NY and bought them. It's almost as if you have some sort of experiment going to recreate NY pies, a quest of sorts, or even a project.

 

ps, nice 650 temps, you can see the difference it makes indeed.

[Essen1]

It's almost as if you have some sort of experiment going to recreate NY pies, a quest of sorts, or even a project.

Nah...I bought them,...all of them. But I think you're missing 26° somewhere. 

[Essen1]

I have read here, over the last few days, about numerous inquiries for a good same-day "emergency" dough.

Well, I thought I'd try it myself even though I already dabbled around with it as you can see here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg70689.html#msg70689

But this time I did a six-hour room temp rise and a two-hour individual rise. Let me tell you, guys, this crust was amazing. Light, airy, chewy and had a nice crunch to it. I'm sure if I have had more time on Monday and didn't start with the dough making process around noon but instead early in the morning, it would have been a fantastic crust. I also lowered the baking time down to six minutes instead of eight.

Another thing is, I dropped the hydration ratio to 60% down from 63% & 64% I used previously. The amount of yeast was also increased to 1% as were the amounts of salt, sugar and oil to 2% respectively.

The flour combo was the same (Stone Buhr & King Arthur BF) and the mixing procedure was the same as well, as described here, I have read here, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg82638.html#msg82638

Overall, it was an excellent crust with a nice texture and structure. It did lack some of the flavor that comes with a longer fermentation and was a bit more on the "rustic" side but for a same day dough, the crust was impressive.

First pie was an olive, mushroom, garlic and fresh basil one and the second a mushroom, ham and olive pizza.

[Essen1]

I forgot to include the formula I used...my bad

443 gr Flour   100%
266 gr Water   60%
4 gr     IDY          1%
9 gr    Oil            2%
9 gr    Sugar       2%
9 gr    Salt          2%

The numbers are rounded up here and there because my digital scale doesn't have decimal feature. It makes two dough balls, 370 gr. each.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Nice job as usual. I think that your dough formulation would be a good candidate for conversion to a preferment format, such as a poolish, in an attempt to extract even more byproducts of fermentation. Substitute honey for some or all of the sugar (using the same baker's percent) and you should also be able to get even more crust coloration if that is something you desire.

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

Nice job as usual. I think that your dough formulation would be a good candidate for conversion to a preferment format, such as a poolish, in an attempt to extract even more byproducts of fermentation. Substitute honey for some or all of the sugar (using the same baker's percent) and you should also be able to get even more crust coloration if that is something you desire.

Peter

I'm not sure if I'm following you. You mean incorporate a preferment into the dough or use the formula as a stand-alone preferment in itself?

I never tried Honey but will do so with my next batch.

[Pete-zza]

I'm not sure if I'm following you. You mean incorporate a preferment into the dough or use the formula as a stand-alone preferment in itself?

Mike,

I mean incorporating a poolish into the dough. A good example of this is the JerryMac NY style dough formulation. I came up with a baker's percent version of JerryMac's dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html. Your dough formulation could be reformulated to use a poolish.

Peter

[Essen1]

Mike,

I mean incorporating a poolish into the dough. A good example of this is the JerryMac NY style dough formulation. I came up with a baker's percent version of JerryMac's dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html. Your dough formulation could be reformulated to use a poolish.

Peter

Peter,

I looked into it but am not a 100% sure if the formula I came up with is adequate as a same day dough. I'd appreciate your input on this one. I calculated the preferment by the Total Dough Weight. It's for four balls at 370 gr each.

Total Formula:

Flour (100%):    908.3 g  |  32.04 oz | 2 lbs
Water (60%):    544.98 g  |  19.22 oz | 1.2 lbs
Salt (3%):    27.25 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.68 tsp | 1.89 tbsp
IDY (.2%):    1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Oil (1%):    9.08 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.02 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    18.17 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.56 tsp | 1.52 tbsp
Total (166.2%):   1509.6 g | 53.25 oz | 3.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   377.4 g | 13.31 oz | 0.83 lbs

Preferment:

Flour:    150.96 g | 5.32 oz | 0.33 lbs
Water:    150.96 g | 5.32 oz | 0.33 lbs
Total:    301.92 g | 10.65 oz | 0.67 lbs

Final Dough:

Flour:    757.34 g | 26.71 oz | 1.67 lbs
Water:    394.02 g | 13.9 oz | 0.87 lbs
Salt:    27.25 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.68 tsp | 1.89 tbsp
IDY:    1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Preferment:    301.92 g | 10.65 oz | 0.67 lbs
Oil:    9.08 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.02 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Sugar:    18.17 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.56 tsp | 1.52 tbsp
Total:    1509.6 g | 53.25 oz | 3.33 lbs  | TF = N/A

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Unfortunately, the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html was not designed for commercially leavened preferments like poolish, biga, sponge, etc. During the design of the tool, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a way to modify and use the tool for such preferments but gave up because there were just so many variations and forms of such preferments and I couldn't figure out a way to cover them all.

What you posted would work for a naturally leavened poolish preferment. However, if you want to be able to make and use the dough the same day, you would have to do two things to the dough formulation you posted. First, you would have to dramatically increase the amount of yeast. It was the high amount of yeast you used in the last dough formulation (1%) that prompted me to suggest a commercially leavened poolish modification of the dough formulation. I think using only 0.20% IDY would be too little for a same-day dough of about eight hours at normal room temperature. I think you would have to go above 1% IDY. Second, you would have to allocate the total formula yeast (for whatever value you decide to use) between the poolish and the final mix. In my case, I simply combined all of the IDY with the flour. That way, I wouldn't forget to add some of the yeast to the final mix. But, you can do an actual allocation if you want, with the bulk of the IDY going into the poolish and the remainder in the final mix. If you want to rethink and revise your dough formulation to use more IDY, we should be able to work out the numbers to do the IDY allocation. Or you can do it the way I did.

One of the nice things about a poolish is that it has a built in indicator of when to use it. That indicator is the point where the poolish "breaks", that is, peaks and then falls back onto itself. From the time of the break, you have a reasonable time to use the poolish. You don't have to rush to complete the final mix at the exact moment of the break. That way, you don't have to sit on top of the poolish the entire time of its prefermentation watching for the break point.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Thanks for taking the time to look over the formula I posted. 

I'm not there, yet, to dabble around in commercial dough applications. But maybe some day I'll get there, when the time's right.

Anyhoo, I have an Ischia starter laying dormant in my fridge and I could activate this one. I think I posted some pics a few weeks ago, or even a video, of the preferment I made before. I understand the use of it but what I don't understand is why you suggest to increase the amount of IDY to over 1% and the use of a starter? Wouldn't that push the dough over the edge over 8 hrs of fermentation...I mean, literally?