Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 100963 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #180 on: November 04, 2009, 08:05:05 PM »
Mike,

What I am talking about is to just use a poolish leavened with commercial yeast (IDY), not a combination of IDY and a natural starter/preferment. I think I should be able to come up with a dough formulation and methodology for you to review over the next day or so. I will have to do this with pencil and paper and a desk calculator. I can't use the preferment dough calculating tool to crunch the numbers.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #181 on: November 04, 2009, 08:11:26 PM »
Mike,

What I am talking about is to just use a poolish leavened with commercial yeast (IDY), not a combination of IDY and a natural starter/preferment. I think I should be able to come up with a dough formulation and methodology for you to review over the next day or so. I will have to do this with pencil and paper and a desk calculator. I can't use the preferment dough calculating tool to crunch the numbers.

Peter

That's fantastic, Peter. Thanks so much for your help on this one.

If it adds more coloration and a bit more taste to my crust, I'd be a happy camper.  :chef:

Your contributions to this thread are invaluable!!
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #182 on: November 04, 2009, 08:42:04 PM »
Mike,

Setting aside for the moment the issue on the amount of yeast, do you have a preference as between the dough formulation you posted in Reply 173 and the one in Reply 177? And do you have a preference as between sugar and honey? I think you are more likely to get increased crust coloration using the honey than the sugar.

Peter

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #183 on: November 04, 2009, 08:47:12 PM »
Mike,

Setting aside for the moment the issue on the amount of yeast, do you have a preference as between the dough formulation you posted in Reply 173 and the one in Reply 177? And do you have a preference as between sugar and honey? I think you are more likely to get increased crust coloration using the honey than the sugar.

Peter

Peter,

I like the formula from reply #173. In regards to the sugar or honey, I have only used sugar (organic & regular) so far, so my experience with honey is basically non-existent. But if honey is a better alternative in order to get more crust coloration out of it, then I'm all for it. I have meant to give the honey a try for quite some time now but never got around to it for some reason.
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #184 on: November 05, 2009, 09:37:20 AM »
Mike,

Modifying the dough formulation you presented at Reply 173 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg82815.html#msg82815, and using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with a proposed dough formulation as presented below. In coming up with that dough formulation, I tried to keep all of the ingredients in whole grams. I did not use a bowl residue compensation (which would have loused up the round numbers anyway), and I know there will be some dough losses during the preparation of the dough, but I think you will still be close to 370 grams per dough ball for all practical purposes. You will also note that the dough formulation is for two dough balls. That is perhaps a good first effort before embarking on a larger dough batch size. The dough formulation uses honey as the sweetener.

Total Formula:
50/50 Stone Buhr/KABF Flour Combination (100%):
Water (60.0451%):
IDY (1.3544%):
Salt (2.0316%):
Olive Oil (2.0316%):
Honey (2.0316%):
Total (167.4943%):
Single Ball:
443 g  |  15.63 oz | 0.98 lbs
266 g  |  9.38 oz | 0.59 lbs
6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.99 tsp | 0.66 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
742 g | 26.17 oz | 1.64 lbs | TF = N/A
371 g | 13.09 oz | 0.82 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Poolish Preparation:
To prepare the poolish, in a bowl, and using a sturdy wooden spoon, combine 1) all of the formula water, 266 grams, 2) an equal weight of the flour blend, that is, 266 grams, and 3) 4 grams of the IDY (about 1 1/3 t.). Set aside the remaining 2 grams of IDY. You don't want to forget to add it later, as part of the Final Mix as described below. Cover the bowl, and let sit at room temperature for several hours until the break point is reached. The time at which the break point is achieved will be affected by the water temperature used and your room temperature. If your room temperature is on the cool side, you might want to use a somewhat warmer water temperature, or otherwise allow for a slightly longer prefermentation period. I would say that you should expect a 4-5 hour prefermentation to reach the break point. You will have about an hour or so after the break point to proceed on to the Final Mix. What I typically use as a cover for the bowl during the above process is a clear, plastic shower cap as given to guests in hotels. It has an elasticized band to grasp the bowl and you can observe the poolish through it.

Final Mix:
For the Final Mix, in your mixer bowl, combine 1) the poolish as described above, 2) the remaining flour, 177 grams (443 grams-266 grams = 177 grams), 3) the remaining IDY, 2 grams (6 grams-4 grams= 2 grams), 4) the 9 grams of olive oil (any other oil will also do), 5) the 9 grams of honey, and 6) the 9 grams of salt. The 2 grams of IDY is about 2/3 t.

You should prepare the dough (the Final Mix) in your mixer as you normally do. The bulk dough should then be held at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours, in the bowl, covered. At the end of the 1 1/2-hour period, divide the bulk dough into two pieces (without punching down), and let the two dough balls rest at room temperature, covered, for another 1 1/2 hours. At the expiration of that time, you should be able to use the dough balls to make skins.

You can get additional details of the above processes at JerryMac's post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html and at my post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html. Keep in mind, however, that your numbers and apportionment of ingredients are different from what JerryMac and I used. You will also note, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that I combined all of the IDY and the flour at the outset and just weighed out an amount of flour/IDY equal to the weight of the formula water. I did that so that I wouldn't forget to add the remaining part of the IDY to the final mix. I also avoided having to measure out small amounts of IDY on my scale or converting those amounts to volume measurements.

There are many other possible variations of the above dough formulation. However, I believe the above dough formulation should fit your 8-hour window. I usually forewarn people not to expect miracles when attempting short dough preparation periods. It is asking a lot to compress the effects of long fermentation times into a short window. However, I believe that preferments such as poolish are a good way to get improved crust flavors and textures.

If I forgot anything, please let me know. You might also double check my math in case I made any errors.

Peter


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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #185 on: November 05, 2009, 03:27:49 PM »
Peter,

If you were a girl I'd fly to Texas right now and kiss you! But you're not so a major "Thank you!" has to do it for now.  ;D

But all jokes aside, I really appreciate your hard work and help with a formula I might be able to use later down the line, hopefully in a commercial setting. I will give it a test run over this weekend and see how that turns out.

But I do have a few questions, though. When you talk about the breaking point of the preferment, or window for that matter, do you mean the time from full activation until it collapses back down? And how would the formula hold up to a 12 hour same-day, room-temp fermentation? And how much would I have to alter the formula IF I would want to use it as a commercial application?

I'm off to buying honey now. Any brand recommendations or will any type of honey do the trick?
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #186 on: November 05, 2009, 04:36:16 PM »
Mike,

If I understand your question correctly, the break point occur at the end of the prefermentation of the poolish. At first, the poolish will be quite quiet, with few bubbles. But, gradually, the poolish will start to expand in volume and there will be a lot more bubbles. Eventually, the expansion of the poolish will peak, with a generally convex surface, and then fall back. That fall back can occur quite quickly. If you watch the development of the poolish, you should clearly see it peak and then fall back, with a generally concave surface. You can see a good example of the fall back and concavity, but with a sponge rather than a preferment, at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814. The time between the start of the poolish and the break point should be around 4-5 hours (or more or less depending on the water temperature used and your room temperature). Once the dough batch is formed as part of the final mix, that dough batch will ferment at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours, at which time it will be divided into two pieces and fermented for another 1 1/2 hours. So, the total window, from the time the poolish is started until the two dough balls are ready to be used, will be close to 8 hours.

To increase the total window to around 12 hours, you would have to either 1) reduce the amount of yeast (IDY) used in the poolish, 2) reduce the temperature of the water used to make the poolish, 3) use a lower room temperature for prefermentation purposes, or 4) some combination of the foregoing. It's all biochemistry.

The honey can be just about anything. In my case, I used a local Texas wildflower honey. The more unprocessed the honey, the greater the likelihood that it will have more active enzymes, but if all you can get is a processed honey, that should be OK.

Peter


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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #187 on: November 05, 2009, 04:50:14 PM »
Mike,

For a good discussion of poolish and how it can be used, see the article at http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm. Unfortunately, the photos are not clear enough to show the way the poolish develops over time. The same article also appears, but without photos, at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. A follow-on article appears at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

You can also see another poolish photo at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg56131.html#msg56131.

Peter

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #188 on: November 05, 2009, 06:09:18 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the info and the links. I'll have to sort through them later on tonight when I'm not at work.

Your explanation regarding the poolish breaking point makes sense. Even though I used poolishes and natural starters before, I have never really thought about it. I was always under the impression the best time to use a poolish/starter was at its highest peak, meaning when it was at it "bubbliest", for the lack of a better word. I didn't know that it also can be used even up to an hour after its prime time, if you will.

Another lesson learned :)

I'm going to look for natural honey here in SF. There's a well-stocked store right around the corner from me that should have it.

Again, thanks so much for your help and I will report back and keep you posted on how it turned out.
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #189 on: November 07, 2009, 12:10:04 AM »
Peter,

I read the links and it's a wealth of information!

I have to study it some more and perhaps apply some of the techniques to one of my next batches. I also 'bookmarked' a site for future reference. Thank you for sharing it!

Alright, I bought some honey. It's pure, raw honey and turns out to be a product from my home country.  ;D Langnese also makes killer ice cream, btw. Anyway, I was wondering what the differences are between processed honey and natural honey?

And I said I'd give the "Contadina" sauce a try. Unfortunately, it's a very thin sauce so I laced it with 6in1's, a tsp of sugar and some spices. We'll see how the sauce differs from what I made before.

Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #190 on: November 07, 2009, 08:33:03 AM »
Alright, I bought some honey. It's pure, raw honey and turns out to be a product from my home country.  ;D Langnese also makes killer ice cream, btw. Anyway, I was wondering what the differences are between processed honey and natural honey?

And I said I'd give the "Contadina" sauce a try. Unfortunately, it's a very thin sauce so I laced it with 6in1's, a tsp of sugar and some spices. We'll see how the sauce differs from what I made before.


Mike,

As with many other pizza ingredients we use, there is a level of technical complexity behind honey also. See, for example, the series of PMQ Think Tank posts starting at about http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26884#26884 (the rest of the first page of the same thread is also a good read on sugar in dough in general). As noted in that thread, there is one member (bodegahwy) who routinely uses honey from a local producer (in a Colorado resort area) in his doughs.

As I may have mentioned before, Contadina makes a canned pizza sauce. You can see the particulars at http://www.contadina.com/products/pizza-sauce-original.aspx. The sauce you made is essentially a cross between a Papa John's pizza sauce and a Pizza Hut or Domino's pizza sauce  :-D. That should be interesting.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 05:06:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #191 on: November 07, 2009, 04:31:30 PM »
Mike,

As with many other pizza ingredients we use, there is a level of technical complexity behind honey also. See, for example, the series of PMQ Think Tank posts starting at about http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26884#26884 (the rest of the first page of the same thread is also a good read on sugar in dough in general). As noted in that thread, there is one member (bodegahwy) who routinely uses honey from a local producer (in a Colorado resort area) in his doughs.

As I may have mentioned before, Contadina makes a canned pizza sauce. You can see the particulars at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26884#26884. The sauce you made is essentially a cross between a Papa John's pizza sauce and a Pizza Hut or Domino's pizza sauce  :-D. That should be interesting.

Peter


Peter,

Did you mean to post two identical links in case I don't get it the first time??  :-D
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #192 on: November 07, 2009, 05:08:05 PM »
Did you mean to post two identical links in case I don't get it the first time??  :-D


Mike,

Sorry about that. I meant this link: http://www.contadina.com/products/pizza-sauce-original.aspx. I corrected my earlier post.

Peter

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #193 on: November 07, 2009, 07:41:40 PM »
Mike,

Sorry about that. I meant this link: http://www.contadina.com/products/pizza-sauce-original.aspx. I corrected my earlier post.

Peter


Peter,

I don't think it's the same sauce what I bought yesterday. My local Safeway only had the one I pictured - reg. tomato sauce -  hence the thinness. I'll keep my eyes peeled and see if I can find it at another store.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #194 on: November 13, 2009, 05:56:25 PM »
Peter,

I tried the formula you gave me and am thoroughly impressed! Thank you for helping.

And I like the addition of honey instead of sugar. I can't point my finger on it but the dough had a slightly different feel to it and was easier to handle. But unfortunately I didn't see much difference in terms of browning.

In regards to the Contadina sauce, though, I ended up mixing them with 6 in 1's as I mentioned before. It turned out quite well, actually. Much better instead of thinning the 6 in 1's with a bit of water.

The first couple of pics was a Italian sausage, mushrooms and pepperoni pie and the last one a plain pepperoni.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 05:58:15 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #195 on: November 13, 2009, 07:53:37 PM »
Essen1,
Your pies look really tasty. 
Norma
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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #196 on: November 14, 2009, 10:34:23 AM »
Mike,

I agree with Norma.

The basic point I was trying to make with this exercise is that it is possible to take an existing dough recipe and convert it into a preferment format and, by so doing, get more and better crust flavor than you can get from the original recipe. I think that you also learn a lot by such experiments.

With respect to the degree of crust coloration that you got using the honey, that is the natural result of the desire to cram everything into the window you selected, in this case, eight hours. To get everything into the eight-hour period, and get the desired end results in terms of crust flavor, you have to resort to using a poolish and a lot of yeast to get the degree of biological activity needed to produce the byproducts of prefermentation that will enhance the flavors of the final crust. Unfortunately, that high degree of biologic activity can rapidly consume the sugars released from the flour by amylase enzyme performance and leave too little for final crust coloration. To make up for this, you can either increase the amount of honey or add some diastatic malt to the flour as part of the final mix, or possibly a combination of both (which would be my personal choice). In your case, should you decide to repeat the experiment, you might increase the amount of honey. The risk here is that if you add too much honey, you might find that the bottom of the crust darkens prematurely, or even blackens, before the rest of the pizza is done. There are perhaps ways of avoiding this while staying within the eight-hour window, as by baking the pizza on a screen rather than a pizza stone or by adding dry milk powder or dairy whey to your dough formulation, but then that might change the results in a way that you might not like or take you away from the NY style you have selected as the goal of your NY pizza project.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #197 on: November 14, 2009, 02:10:49 PM »
I agree there, no honey in a NY pie, then again there's no sugar usually either. I'm renaming this ''Essen 1's pizza project" as we have gone far west, lol. This pre-ferm idea is interesting. I like the idea of a pre-ferm overnight in the fridge idea, came up recently. I think I would be ill advised to try it at 550 with this 60% hydration dough though. Maybe I'll try it with another.

Hey Mike, slightly off topic, but you were talking about an LBE recently. Ya know, to get to your kind of temps for NY (and other westerly) pies! A client of mine (I "fix" mostly pizza places by coincidence, no not their cooking) swears by this 800-1000 degree bad boy for home use. The bottom stone rotates. I'd seen it before in passing but didn't really study it, the rotation factor is pretty cool though. What's interesting the 1st user comment comparing it to his Weber propane, said it only got to 450? I think something is wrong there, but anyway thought you'd find it interesting. 2-3 minute bake times, Uber-Naples man! They have a video on there cooking one in 66 seconds, looked a bit undercooked to me though.
http://www.2stonepg.com/


EDIT: Mike, I forgot to add the usual fact, your pies look amazing! Also no offense to you or Peter on no honey thing, I love Jerry Mac's for example, but just look below at the NY skyline at night... says it all man.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 02:58:03 PM by NY pizzastriver »
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #198 on: November 14, 2009, 02:59:57 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the kind words. And they tasted the way they looked, too...believe it or not :)

Peter,

I see what you're saying. I have thought about how to extend the fermentation time to 24 hrs without losing the characteristics of the dough I previously made. I also thought about how to get a little more crust color out of the dough so last night I went and used the extended dough calculator and came up with a slightly altered formula. I don't have the exact numbers on hand right now because I'm at work but will post them later on tonight or tomorrow morning. However, I dropped the yeast amount, added a tad more honey and a pinch, just a pinch, of regular granulated sugar to the mix. I also increased the oil by a couple of grams I believe. I can only hope that the dough won't have a sweet aftertaste with the increase in honey and the addition of the sugar.

The dough's currently sitting in the fridge since last night and when I checked this morning it looked pretty good and had a nice smell to it. I'll report back on how it turned out.

Jimbo,

I guess you're right in terms of going "West". But remember the movie "How the West was won"? Or was it the "East"?? Either way, I don't see anything wrong by trying to get the best pizza possible out of a non-pro setting meaning at home, without losing too much of the character of a NY-style pizza, even if that means using a preferment, honey or a bit of sugar, Bro.

In regards to the LBE, I'm way ahead of you...as usual  ;D  Check this out: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.msg61463.html#msg61463

However, I cannot use a NY dough formulation in the LBE because it gets too hot. I only use the LBE for Neo-Neapolitan doughs, so to speak.
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #199 on: November 14, 2009, 03:05:46 PM »
Looks wicked man! I see what you're saying about the temps though, NY isn't that hot I s'pose. I love the opening cut in the side. It has a handy double use if you ever need to save any distressed damsel's.
http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/H002403.JPG
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1