Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 138911 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cup-o-pizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 40
  • Location: Minneapolis, MN
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #225 on: November 18, 2009, 09:55:20 AM »
Thanks for that info.  I'm going to head to Trader Joe's for my next cheese purchase.  I've been using the same combination as you, but with Boar's Head WM,  Pride of Wisconsin (regional brand) PS, and Parm-Regg.  I'm not particularly happy with how the cheese has been melting.  I find the Boar's Head to be much too creamy for my taste.

Why do you advocate putting the cheese on cold instead of room temp?
Matt

Navin R. Johnson: "Oh, this is the best pizza in a cup ever. This guy is unbelievable. He ran the old Cup 'o Pizza guy out of business."


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #226 on: November 18, 2009, 11:32:47 AM »
Mike,

Thank you for the explanation of the methods you used to make the dough from the formulation posted in Reply 209 (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83584.html#msg83584) since what you did with your preferment did not register with any classic preferment with which I am familiar. However, to better assess your dough formulation, I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following:

Mike's Total Dough Formulation
50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend (100%):
Water (62.9841%):
IDY (0.45558%):
Sea Salt (2.5057%):
Olive Oil (2.05011%):
Sugar (1.02506%):
Raw Honey (2.96127%):
Total (171.98182%):
878 g  |  30.97 oz | 1.94 lbs
553 g  |  19.51 oz | 1.22 lbs
4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
22 g | 0.78 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3.94 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
18 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.26 tsp | 0.75 tbsp
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 3.72 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
1510 g | 53.26 oz | 3.33 lbs | TF = N/A

Mike's Two-Hour Preferment
100%     50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 526.8 g (60% of total formula flour blend)
104.97% Water (95 degrees F): 553 g (entire formula water)
1.7084% Sugar: 9 g (entire formula sugar)
4.1762% Sea Salt: 22 g (entire formula salt)
0.7593% IDY: 4 g (entire formula yeast)
Total: 1114.8 g

Mike's Final Mix
Mike's Two-Hour Preferment: 1114.8 g
Remaining 50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 351.8 g
Raw Honey: 26 g (entire formula raw honey)
Olive Oil: 18 g (entire formula olive oil)
Total: 1510 g

Examining the above, your preferment is not a classic poolish. The hydration of your preferment, at 104.97%, is a bit higher than the 100% hydration of a classic poolish, but you also included the sugar and salt, which is something that is normally not done with a preferment (other than old dough). Salt is sometimes used in a preferment to restrain the action of protease enzymes that might attack and soften the gluten structure but the percent is usually far less than the 4.7612% that you used. Since Professor Calvel has discussed the use of salt in preferments in his book The Taste of Bread, I checked out all the preferments that I could find in his book in which he included salt and the amount was invariably 2% (of the preferment flour). Moreover, the bulk of the total formula salt went into the final mix, not the preferment. I checked several of the prefermented dough formulations in the Calvel book to see if there was a more or less fixed ratio but found that the allocation varied from one formulation to another.

I think the above analysis may hold some clues to the crust coloration issue that you have been experiencing. First, because of the high starting hydration of your preferment, coupled with the use of warm water (95 degrees F) and all of the formula IDY, it would be natural to see a rapid and substantial prefermentation of your preferment. Second, the presence of the high salt level might inhibit the protease enzymes and the rate of prefermentation, but the presence of the sugar might offset that to the extent that it is converted to sugars in a form usable by the yeast as food (in addition to the sugars from the flour) during the two-hour prefermentation period. Because of the intensity of the preferment biochemical activity and the long period of refrigeration, it is possible that even with the addition of the raw honey as part of the final mix, there might not have been enough residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute meaningfully to the final crust coloration.

How to proceed from here if you would like to conduct further preferment experiments will depend on what you want to achieve in the way of outcome and over what time frame. You would perhaps want to achieve a better balance of ingredients, quantities and temperatures for the preferment itself and in relation to the total time frame of your dough. I think that you can see how these factors are currently working at cross purposes. Of course, if you are happy with the current formulation and results, despite a few shortcomings, then there is no need to do anything further. To me, the last batch of pizzas looked just fine.

I also noticed that your dough preparation had shades of Varasano's methodology in terms of the mix/knead/rest periods. Whether that was intentional or not, it would seem to improve the dough quality. So, if you decide to try to improve the inherent balance of your preferment in relation to the total window of your dough, I think you might see improvement in your overall results or at least identify other possible improvements. For example, when sugar depletion is likely to be a problem, it is often recommended that diastatic malt syrup or powder be added to the dough as part of the final mix.

Peter


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #227 on: November 18, 2009, 04:19:45 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the detailed post.

I know my preferment wasn't a poolish in the classic sense and maybe we should change the term to "Mike's experimental pre-dough batter" or something like that but like I said before, I was trying to shake things up a little to see if that would yield better results in terms of crust coloration. Unfortunately, it didn't.

But the overall results were pretty cool, nonetheless, so it might be worth looking into it a bit further.

Quote
You would perhaps want to achieve a better balance of ingredients, quantities and temperatures for the preferment itself and in relation to the total time frame of your dough. I think that you can see how these factors are currently working at cross purposes.

What would you suggest about how to proceed from here on out, regarding the stability and order of ingredients added to the mix?

And maybe next time I'll take a little video with sound to illustrate the steps taken.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #228 on: November 18, 2009, 04:22:39 PM »
Thanks for that info.  I'm going to head to Trader Joe's for my next cheese purchase.  I've been using the same combination as you, but with Boar's Head WM,  Pride of Wisconsin (regional brand) PS, and Parm-Regg.  I'm not particularly happy with how the cheese has been melting.  I find the Boar's Head to be much too creamy for my taste.

Why do you advocate putting the cheese on cold instead of room temp?

Matt,

I decided to use it cold because first off, it prevented clumping of the cheese. Second, I noticed that it melted a bit slower than room-temp cheese, covering the crust much better. But that's just my observations. Others might think differently or have experienced different results. It also depends on the temp of the oven and baking times, imho.

Give it a shot and see what happens. Can't hurt, right?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #229 on: November 18, 2009, 04:49:55 PM »
What would you suggest about how to proceed from here on out, regarding the stability and order of ingredients added to the mix?

Mike,

Bakers who use preferments usually have to conduct tests to find the best combination of ingredients and the amount to use. In our case, we were fortunate to have JerryMac's turbo-charged preferment method that allowed everything, including the preferment, to be completed within eight hours and with good results. That saved us a lot of time. But, as JerryMac noted at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55506/topicseen.html#msg55506, his original dough formulation was not an overnight success. In your case, it would help to know what overall dough window you would like to use, from the time that your preferment is started to the time that you plan to use the dough, which I assume will entail a reasonable period of cold fermentation after the final mix. It would also help to know whether you want the preferment to be made within a certain time period. The prefermentation time period and the total dough period will have to fit within your schedule, much like a baker would have to do it to be sure that the product is ready when customers arrive to buy the product.

Peter

Offline cup-o-pizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 40
  • Location: Minneapolis, MN
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #230 on: November 18, 2009, 04:56:57 PM »
Matt,

I decided to use it cold because first off, it prevented clumping of the cheese. Second, I noticed that it melted a bit slower than room-temp cheese, covering the crust much better. But that's just my observations. Others might think differently or have experienced different results. It also depends on the temp of the oven and baking times, imho.

Give it a shot and see what happens. Can't hurt, right?

Yeah, I've done it both ways and have found pros/cons for both.  I was just wondering if you had some legendary secret for doing it your way.  ;)
Matt

Navin R. Johnson: "Oh, this is the best pizza in a cup ever. This guy is unbelievable. He ran the old Cup 'o Pizza guy out of business."

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #231 on: November 18, 2009, 06:01:59 PM »
Yeah, I've done it both ways and have found pros/cons for both.  I was just wondering if you had some legendary secret for doing it your way.  ;)

Matt,

No legendary secret here. Just some luck with trying different things. But do try the Trader Joe's cheese and let me know what you think.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #232 on: November 18, 2009, 06:19:30 PM »
Quote
It would also help to know whether you want the preferment to be made within a certain time period. The prefermentation time period and the total dough period will have to fit within your schedule, much like a baker would have to do it to be sure that the product is ready when customers arrive to buy the product.

Peter,

Ideally the entire dough, including preferment, would be made a day ahead with an overnight cold-rise, to be used the next day and any given time during the day if that makes sense, without losing much flavor and the characteristics of a  good NY-style pie.

I know this sounds a little strange but it shouldn't be impossible, no?

P.S.: You mentioned the Varasano mixing technique. That was pure coincidence, actually. When I first started making pizzas I used his approach briefly but I do try to develop my own crust and mixing regimen.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 06:21:30 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #233 on: November 18, 2009, 07:05:27 PM »
Mike,

I'd like to kick this one around a bit. However, I am thinking about a classic poolish, not only because I think it contributes a lot to a pizza, but to keep the math simple (there really isn't a big difference between a 100% hydration and a roughly 105% hydration anyway). Whatever the final decision, I think we will need some sugar or honey for crust coloration purposes. Using one or the other, or both, is possible of course, but you might want to settle on one for the time being. At some point, you might also want to supplement the sugar or honey with diastatic malt, especially if it turns out that the sugar and/or honey are insufficient to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Off the top of my head, I don't see any reason why you can't use a short-, medium- or long-term poolish. The composition of ingredients will be different in each case, but I think each is doable. I know that you have a day job, but is there a particular time of day that would work best for you to start the poolish?

Peter
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 07:43:10 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #234 on: November 18, 2009, 07:41:24 PM »
Mike,

I'd like to kick this one around a bit. However, I am thinking about a classic poolish, not only because I think it contributes a lot to a pizza, but to keep the math simple (there really isn't a big difference between a 100% hydration and a roughly 105% hydration anyway). Whatever the final decision, I think we will need some sugar or honey for crust coloration purposes. Using one or the other, or both, is possible of course, but you might want to settle on one for the time being. At some point, you might also want to supplement the sugar or honey with diastatic malt, especially if it turns out that the sugar and/or honey are insufficient to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

Of the top of my head, I don't see any reason why you can't use a short-, medium- or long-term poolish. The composition of ingredients will be different in each case, but I think each is doable. I know that you have a day job, but is there a particular time of day that would work best for you to start the poolish?

Peter

Peter,

Since I have had good experiences with the organic sugar for crust coloration that would be my first choice and the honey second. Regular sugar, nah...not so much. And a classic poolish is what I had good results with before but I mainly used it in connection with the Caputo flour and my LBE.

Tonight after work I'll check out my local grocery store, which sells more hard-to-find baker's ingredients than Safeway and see if they perhaps carry the diastatic malt.

The best days for me are usually Sundays and Mondays, or even late afternoon Saturday.

This should be interesting and I'm looking forward to it  :chef:
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #235 on: November 18, 2009, 07:50:25 PM »
Mike,

Since the start and end times when using preferments is important, is there a particular time of day that you would want to start the poolish? That might dictate which particular preferment duration to use and the quantity of yeast and possibly the amount of salt to use, if any.

Peter

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #236 on: November 18, 2009, 07:56:30 PM »
Peter,

Well, then let's set the starting time for Saturday evening at 6:00pm.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline s00da

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 468
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #237 on: November 19, 2009, 01:32:21 AM »
Hey Mike, it seems like your project is going into many different directions trying out things  :-D

Just an idea that I had regarding your dough formulations. I noticed that you can take your baking temp. up to 625F which is really nice while you use a 2% olive oil. I understand that 1% is sufficient when baking in low temps to keep the crust from drying out.

I guess what I'm trying too say is, are you going with 2% for other reasons than keeping the moisture of the crust? how about eliminating the oil all together and try baking at the 625F temp.

Saad

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #238 on: November 19, 2009, 02:42:48 AM »
Quote
Hey Mike, it seems like your project is going into many different directions trying out things 


Saad,

First off, thanks for the tips!

Yes, it seems the project is going into a lot of different directions but that’s just an illusion.  ::)

The reason I started this thread was to come up with the most decent, if not best, possible NY-style crust one can achieve/make at home with the tools at hand. Sure, certain tools are a given or must have, such as a stand mixer, a good-quality stone – not the crap from China -, some mixing bowls, spatulas, etc. And then there are the factors of different ovens, different mixers, different fridges…you get my drift, right? But by going, or covering if you will, a few avenues, some of them unconventional and perhaps even irrational or crazy to the pro baker, it might lead to the desired outcome.

But I shouldn’t have to tell you that. I’m sure you know already.  8)

What I’m trying to say is that sometimes it’s good to go in different directions, trying perhaps some unconventional things not mentioned in books, if those undertakings help the final result, a result that one’s happy about and can live with.

Don’t get me wrong, making pizza is like “The Neverending Story” but it’s all part of the individual mosaic one calls passion.

If Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler wouldn’t have explored many avenues before they invented the first gas-powered car and combustion engine respectively, I’m sure they would not have succeeded, don’t you think?


Quote
Just an idea that I had regarding your dough formulations. I noticed that you can take your baking temp. up to 625F which is really nice while you use a 2% olive oil. I understand that 1% is sufficient when baking in low temps to keep the crust from drying out.

I guess what I'm trying too say is, are you going with 2% for other reasons than keeping the moisture of the crust? how about eliminating the oil all together and try baking at the 625F temp.


Onto the oil… (Btw, I do like the Havoline 10W-30 , it’s an integrity thing, you know)

I did try lower oil percentages, really. And I eliminated oil altogether in some of my doughs, too, just for s#$*s and giggles, and ended up with a Frisbee with a pizza theme on it. Yes, it flew well, thanks for asking. Which reminds me to get a dog…

Dogs love Frisbees, right? He could fetch and eat his dinner right on the spot! Just thinking out loud.  ;D

But all jokes aside, the reason to actually increase/experiment with the amount of oil was that even though I do get my oven up to 652°F on a good day, to resemble the foldability and “floppability” of a NY crust, with a touch of rustic thrown in.

Does that make sense?

« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 02:50:37 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline cup-o-pizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 40
  • Location: Minneapolis, MN
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #239 on: November 19, 2009, 07:52:57 PM »
Matt,

I decided to use it cold because first off, it prevented clumping of the cheese. Second, I noticed that it melted a bit slower than room-temp cheese, covering the crust much better. But that's just my observations. Others might think differently or have experienced different results. It also depends on the temp of the oven and baking times, imho.

Give it a shot and see what happens. Can't hurt, right?

Mike,

I used a 50/50 blend of Trader Joe's PS and WM mozz on tonight's pizza and it was hands down the best mozz I've used so far.  It melted just like I wanted it to and wasn't greasy at all.  Incidentally, it was also the least expensive cheese I've used.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm going to go with Trader Joe's mozz from now on!

Matt
Matt

Navin R. Johnson: "Oh, this is the best pizza in a cup ever. This guy is unbelievable. He ran the old Cup 'o Pizza guy out of business."

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #240 on: November 19, 2009, 11:49:19 PM »
Mike,

I used a 50/50 blend of Trader Joe's PS and WM mozz on tonight's pizza and it was hands down the best mozz I've used so far.  It melted just like I wanted it to and wasn't greasy at all.  Incidentally, it was also the least expensive cheese I've used.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm going to go with Trader Joe's mozz from now on!

Matt

Matt,

Glad you liked it. I told you it was good.  ;D

And very affordable compared to the Precious or Safeway brands. I do like the Grande but it's too expensive here at over $7 for less than a pound at Whole Foods. And they are the only ones carrying it.

I don't know where you located but I stopped by at TJ's tonight, too, and restocked on the cheese. Here in SF, CA we get the mozzarella at TJ's shown below.

Btw, they also carry Crimini mushrooms, the ones I usually use on my pies, at $1.69 for 8oz.

And I found a can of organic tomato sauce I'm going to incorporate in my next batch of sauce.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 11:54:49 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline cup-o-pizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 40
  • Location: Minneapolis, MN
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #241 on: November 20, 2009, 09:16:04 AM »
That's the brand of mozz I bought yesterday.   8)

I need to start experimenting with other toppings.  I love mushrooms, so maybe I'll pick some of those crimini ones up next time I'm at TJs.  I've been very happy with using 6 in 1 for my sauce.  I just add salt, pepper, and simple blend of common italian seasonings.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 09:18:11 AM by cup-o-pizza »
Matt

Navin R. Johnson: "Oh, this is the best pizza in a cup ever. This guy is unbelievable. He ran the old Cup 'o Pizza guy out of business."


Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #242 on: November 20, 2009, 12:47:20 PM »

And I found a can of organic tomato sauce I'm going to incorporate in my next batch of sauce.


Ah, good, I think? And maybe you have discussed this before, if so sorry to be redundant, but when you say "next batch" you cook an actual proper sauce then. (?) You're not what Tony Soprano refers to as a " 'Wonder bread wop', the kind of guy that eats his Sunday gravy out of a jar", are you?

I won't get started on this topic again, I've made the ketchup pouring on raw pizza dough photo shops, I've corrected people who say whole tomatoes out of a jar are fully cooked, I've tried to inspire with rough recipes and protocol to no avail. Instead I'll just keep making my great sauce and will commend you for your efforts in making a great pizza crust, and taking the additional effort to not top it with Campbell's tomato soup.

Unless your "batch" is just the above can with some oregano or pizza seasoning tossed in, then I quickly retract any aforementioned praising.  ;D
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 12:51:50 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #243 on: November 20, 2009, 02:57:35 PM »
That's the brand of mozz I bought yesterday.   8)

I need to start experimenting with other toppings.  I love mushrooms, so maybe I'll pick some of those crimini ones up next time I'm at TJs.  I've been very happy with using 6 in 1 for my sauce.  I just add salt, pepper, and simple blend of common italian seasonings.

Matt,

I use the 6in1s also. The tomato sauce is only used to make the the pizza sauce a bit smoother and to dilute the 6in1sa bit instead of using water. Add a tad more flavor, too.

The Criminis are pretty good. Better than the regular white mushrooms, imho.


Jimbo,

I'm sorry to disappoint but I don't 'cook' my sauce.

I just, carefully and with lots and lots of love, put my sauce together. But now I think I have to try the Campell's soup on my pies accompanied by lots of gravy to dip any left-over crust in it. Ahhh....Gravy!  ;D

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #244 on: November 20, 2009, 04:54:29 PM »
Mike,

I have set forth below a protocol for your next poolish-based experiment. For the basic dough formulation for the experiment, I used a modified version of the dough formulation you posted at Reply 209 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83584.html#msg83584. The total amount of dough was selected to produce four dough balls, each weighing 375 grams, which is the dough ball weight you previously used. I used a bowl residue compensation, as noted below, to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. That is why the dough ball weights shown in the dough formulation below are a bit larger than 375 grams.

Since you set a start time for the preparation of the poolish at 6 PM, I settled on a 3-hour poolish. That means that you will have to complete the Final Mix at around 9 PM. The poolish is a classic poolish with 100% hydration. For the amount of poolish (less yeast) to use for the experiment, I decided to use 50% of the usual range of 20-80% of the total formula water. That way, based on your results, you can move the needle in either direction to increase or decrease the total amount of the poolish for future experiments. Ideally, the poolish should reach the break point at the expiration of the 3-hour prefermentation period. That period is based on the water temperature and the room temperature. As noted below, you should use the water for the poolish at 60 degrees F. Normally, the temperature of prefermentation of the poolish is 80-85 degrees F. I assumed that your room temperature is perhaps around 70 degrees F. So, to compensate for the difference in temperature, I increased the amount of yeast for the poolish from the value that would be used for a room temperature of 80-85 degrees F. Because the poolish is very temperature sensitive, you may want to monitor the progress of the poolish to see if it reaches the break point at the expiration of the 3-hour period, or thereabouts. You will note that I did not specify any salt for the poolish. The reason is that a classic poolish normally does not use any salt. I confirmed this from the Rosada article and Professor Calvel’s book The Taste of Bread.

Ideally, for the Final Mix, you will want to use the remaining formula water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. The poolish should already be at room temperature. You might want to note the finished dough temperature in case future adjustments are needed.

The total formula yeast was selected so that you might be able to start making pizzas at around noon on the following day, and for some time thereafter. In accordance with your request, the dough will go into the refrigerator aftet the Final Mix. You will want to decide whether to do the division and scaling of the dough before or after refrigeration. Since I can’t accurately predict the outer limit of the window of use of the dough, you will want to monitor the development of the dough to be sure that it does not overferment.

Here are the particulars:

Total Dough Formulation
50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.35%):
Sea Salt (2.5%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Raw Sugar (2%):
Total (169.85%):
Single Ball:
905.21 g  |  31.93 oz | 2 lbs
570.28 g  |  20.12 oz | 1.26 lbs
3.17 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
22.63 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.05 tsp | 1.35 tbsp
18.1 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.02 tsp | 1.34 tbsp
18.1 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.54 tsp | 1.51 tbsp
1537.5 g | 54.23 oz | 3.39 lbs | TF = N/A
384.37 g | 13.56 oz | 0.85 lbs
Note: For four 375 g dough balls; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

3-Hour Poolish
100% KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 285.14 g
100% Water (60 degrees F): 285.14 g
0.60% IDY: 1.71 g (0.57 t., or a bit more than ½ t.)
Total: 571.99 g
Note: Poolish weight (less yeast) is 50% of the total formula water; water temperature for the poolish is 60 degrees F; assumed room temperature is 70 degrees F

Final Mix
Poolish: 571.99 g
Remaining 50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 620.07 g
Remaining formula water: 285.14 g
Remaining IDY: 1.46 g (0.48 t., or a bit less than 1/2 t.)
Sea Salt: 22.63 g
Olive Oil: 18.1 g
Raw Sugar: 18.1 g
Total: 1537.5 g
Note: Use water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 75-80 degrees F

Good luck. I hope it works.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 527
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #245 on: November 20, 2009, 05:54:47 PM »

But now I think I have to try the Campell's soup on my pies accompanied by lots of gravy to dip any left-over crust in it. Ahhh....Gravy!  ;D



Lol, oh well, and by the way "gravy" refers to tomato sauce. And yes, when it's real sauce the crusts are great dipped into a side of it!
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #246 on: November 20, 2009, 06:37:24 PM »
Mike,

I have set forth below a protocol for your next poolish-based experiment. For the basic dough formulation for the experiment, I used a modified version of the dough formulation you posted at Reply 209 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83584.html#msg83584. The total amount of dough was selected to produce four dough balls, each weighing 375 grams, which is the dough ball weight you previously used. I used a bowl residue compensation, as noted below, to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. That is why the dough ball weights shown in the dough formulation below are a bit larger than 375 grams.

Since you set a start time for the preparation of the poolish at 6 PM, I settled on a 3-hour poolish. That means that you will have to complete the Final Mix at around 9 PM. The poolish is a classic poolish with 100% hydration. For the amount of poolish (less yeast) to use for the experiment, I decided to use 50% of the usual range of 20-80% of the total formula water. That way, based on your results, you can move the needle in either direction to increase or decrease the total amount of the poolish for future experiments. Ideally, the poolish should reach the break point at the expiration of the 3-hour prefermentation period. That period is based on the water temperature and the room temperature. As noted below, you should use the water for the poolish at 60 degrees F. Normally, the temperature of prefermentation of the poolish is 80-85 degrees F. I assumed that your room temperature is perhaps around 70 degrees F. So, to compensate for the difference in temperature, I increased the amount of yeast for the poolish from the value that would be used for a room temperature of 80-85 degrees F. Because the poolish is very temperature sensitive, you may want to monitor the progress of the poolish to see if it reaches the break point at the expiration of the 3-hour period, or thereabouts. You will note that I did not specify any salt for the poolish. The reason is that a classic poolish normally does not use any salt. I confirmed this from the Rosada article and Professor Calvel’s book The Taste of Bread.

Ideally, for the Final Mix, you will want to use the remaining formula water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. The poolish should already be at room temperature. You might want to note the finished dough temperature in case future adjustments are needed.

The total formula yeast was selected so that you might be able to start making pizzas at around noon on the following day, and for some time thereafter. In accordance with your request, the dough will go into the refrigerator aftet the Final Mix. You will want to decide whether to do the division and scaling of the dough before or after refrigeration. Since I can’t accurately predict the outer limit of the window of use of the dough, you will want to monitor the development of the dough to be sure that it does not overferment.

Here are the particulars:

Total Dough Formulation
50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.35%):
Sea Salt (2.5%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Raw Sugar (2%):
Total (169.85%):
Single Ball:
905.21 g  |  31.93 oz | 2 lbs
570.28 g  |  20.12 oz | 1.26 lbs
3.17 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.05 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
22.63 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.05 tsp | 1.35 tbsp
18.1 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.02 tsp | 1.34 tbsp
18.1 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.54 tsp | 1.51 tbsp
1537.5 g | 54.23 oz | 3.39 lbs | TF = N/A
384.37 g | 13.56 oz | 0.85 lbs
Note: For four 375 g dough balls; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

3-Hour Poolish
100% KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 285.14 g
100% Water (60 degrees F): 285.14 g
0.60% IDY: 1.71 g (0.57 t., or a bit more than ½ t.)
Total: 571.99 g
Note: Poolish weight (less yeast) is 50% of the total formula water; water temperature for the poolish is 60 degrees F; assumed room temperature is 70 degrees F

Final Mix
Poolish: 571.99 g
Remaining 50/50 KABF/SBBF Flour Blend: 620.07 g
Remaining formula water: 285.14 g
Remaining IDY: 1.46 g (0.48 t., or a bit less than 1/2 t.)
Sea Salt: 22.63 g
Olive Oil: 18.1 g
Raw Sugar: 18.1 g
Total: 1537.5 g
Note: Use water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 75-80 degrees F

Good luck. I hope it works.

Peter


Wow!

Thanks so much for your help, Peter.  ;D

I'm going to follow your protocol above as close as possible and will let you know about the outcome. I'll also take note on the dough temps or any possible fluctuations from your original formula if that should happen. I doubt it, though. The only thing I might have to adjust is the room temp tomorrow since it's a little chilly here right now but that's just a minor adjustment on my thermostat.

I'm anxious to see the results. Maybe a preferment is the way to go if one wants to achieve a good NY-style crust at home. I have yet to hear about any NY pizza makers who use the poolish method, although Evelyne Slomon mentioned something over at the PMQ about it, but it can never hurt to try. I think I posted the link here somewhere. Gotta find it.

Peter, again, thanks so much for putting all the work into this. I let you know on Sunday how things went, incl. a detailed report.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #247 on: November 20, 2009, 06:38:21 PM »
Lol, oh well, and by the way "gravy" refers to tomato sauce. And yes, when it's real sauce the crusts are great dipped into a side of it!

But Jimbo...I wanted real gravy, you know, like Turkey gravy or brown gravy.  :'(
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3833
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #248 on: November 20, 2009, 06:40:00 PM »
Matt,

Here's a bit more info on the company that makes the "North Beach" mozzarella if that's of any interest. They actually have a nice selection of other cheeses, too.

http://www.pacificcheese.com/brands.html#grandeurope
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23564
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #249 on: November 20, 2009, 07:36:22 PM »
I have yet to hear about any NY pizza makers who use the poolish method, although Evelyne Slomon mentioned something over at the PMQ about it, but it can never hurt to try.

Mike,

Once in a while a poster at the PMQ Think Tank will ask about using preferments, and Tom Lehmann will usually respond and occasionally post a typical preferment-based dough formulation (such as one using a sponge or old dough), but there has been little feedback on actual results. Most pizza operators are not trying to be artisan pizza makers and may even have trouble handling all of the math. Also, preferments like poolish and sponge are so sensitive to temperatures that, unless you have a special temperature-controlled facility (and probably humidity control also) dedicated to the preparation of the preferments, you are likely to experience a lot of variations over the course of the year as ambient temperatures change with the seasons. You really have to be really serious about your pizza making to deal with these kinds of matters. It is not the sort of activity that you are likely to turn over to a bunch of high school kids.

Peter


 

pizzapan