Author Topic: Flour Profiles  (Read 5203 times)

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Offline Mo

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Flour Profiles
« on: March 03, 2009, 02:40:51 PM »
Hi. Long-time listener, first-time caller. I apologize in advance if this has been addressed ad nauseam.

However: I am wondering if anyone has the percentages of protein, moisture, ash, falling number, and damaged starch for Caputo 00 pizza flour. I am trying to match up a local organic product and comparing profiles will be helpful...

Thanks in advance. Lots of great info on this site.


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 01:45:36 PM »


Thanks Bill. That's exactly what I needed. It looks as though the organic product matches up really well to the Caputo flour profile...I'll let you know if I can get some into production.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 02:03:09 PM »
It looks as though the organic product matches up really well to the Caputo flour profile

Mo,

You perhaps will want to keep in mind as you proceed that you can't always rely on the fact that two flours have comparable profiles. This is a topic that was touched upon recently at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8028.msg69149/topicseen.html#msg69149. A similar comparison was also the subject of an article that I posted earlier today at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8108.msg69728.html#msg69728.

Peter

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 03:19:17 PM »
Peter:

Thanks for the heads-up. I figured that relying on just one characteristic would probably not get me there which is why those other numbers I requested are useful. I'm still learning, but some of the other important numbers seem to be the falling number and damaged starch percentage. I'll post some of the data from the flour I'm comparing to, if you like...

I read that PMQ article a couple weeks ago actually and was motivated to go find something else out there to perform like the 00 flours. So far, I have used Sala Cereali 00 and Caputo 00 pizza. I like both. I want to start experimenting with some cultured starter but am still having fun tweaking the Forno bravo formula, which is a very good formula.

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 04:34:36 PM »
Here's the info on Heartland Mills organic UBAP:

Lot Number:  07028U1K8
Flour type: UBAP (Malted)

Protein: 11.5
Moisture: 12.4
Ash: 0.57
Falling Number: 290
Damaged Starch: 10.0
Alveograph, Constant Hydration (CH)
P: 83
L:  92
G: 21.4

W:  291
P/L:  0.90

Ie%: 66.1

(click to view alveo CH image)

(click to view consisto image)

Consistograph
Absorption (14%mb): 59.2
PrMax: 2293
TPrMax (seconds): 156
Tol (seconds): 206

D250:  306

D450:  956


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 04:52:13 PM »
Mo,

Thank you for the data on Heartland.

For your information, some time ago, at Reply 93 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg14039/topicseen.html#msg14039, I discussed the damage starch and falling number issues in relation to the Caputo 00 flour. As noted in that post, the Caputo 00 flour is less susceptible to starch damage than our domestic flours and the Caputo 00 flour is not malted, as are most of the flours in the U.S. sold at the retail level. In the same post, I also discussed an experiment I conducted in order to increase the damaged starch in the Caputo 00 flour in an attempt to increase the natural sugars to contribute to better crust browning in a home oven setting. In addition to attempting to increase the damaged starch, I added some diastatic malt, which is one form of the malt additives that millers use. I think you will find that the domestic flours that most closely mimic the Caputo 00 flour are some of the unmalted flours. You already mentioned Heartland, which I found some time ago through a Google search. You cited the UBAP, which is malted, but the UBUE apparently is unmalted (http://www.heartlandmill.com/baker_pages/flour_info.htm#ubue). A couple other examples that come to mind are the Pollyana flour from General Mills (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Pollyanna%20Untreated56441.doc) and Hodgson Mill (http://www.hodgsonmill.com/roi/673/All-Natural-Flours--Corn-Meals/All-Purpose-Unbleached-Naturally-White-Flour-05009.htm). Sperry Organic, also from General Mills (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/WebsiteA45123SperryOrganicBroc.pdf), has unmalted flours but I don't believe that they have one with a protein content similar to the Caputo 00 flour. It's possible that Giusto's has some unmalted flours but, if they do, they may be higher-protein flours.

FYI, one of my favorite sites for analyzing flours is the Cook Natural Products website at http://www.cooknaturally.com/detailed/detailed.html.

Peter

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 05:43:32 PM »
Peter:

It's interesting that your experiment with adding malt produced good results. I cited the UBAP because of the added malt, noting Heartlands description of it as appropriate where some degree of fermentation is to be used. Maybe Caputo would be better in general with a little more starch/sugar? As for the other aspect of damaged starch that seem to be important is it's effect on absorption. The Forno Bravo formula, as you know, is already pretty wet and I' m sure the wrong flour could create a problem. I'll try to get a pic of what the Caputo is doing for us now...Will the site let me post it as a newbie? Apparently, I couldn't quote somebody's response because it had a hyperlink...



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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 06:28:45 PM »
Mo,

Now that you have five posts, I believe that you can quote material with hyperlinks. The five post rule was established to cut down on spamming.

As you may know, in Naples the Caputo 00 flour (and other 00 flours as well) is used for room-temperature fermentation applications. As Marco (pizzanapoletana) noted at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410, the Caputo 00 flour is not well suited to cold fermentation (retardation) applications. My experience with the 00 flours has been respect to home use, where a lot of effort was devoted to finding ways to get increased crust coloration. Even then, the crust coloration would not mimic the leoparding and other crust coloration effects that one can get using a very high temperature wood-fired oven. From what I have read and seen in photos on the forum, I do not sense that sugar depletion is a big issue with 00 doughs so long as the fermentation window is reasonable (maybe a few days maximum) and the dough is baked in a very high temperature oven. Maybe at some point, sugar depletion can become an issue with 00 flours, just as it can be with other types of flours that I have worked with that have higher amylase activity and where the doughs are subjected to long cold fermentations. Others on the forum who regularly work with cold fermented 00 doughs and with very high temperature ovens will be in a better position than I to speak to the issue of sugar depletion.

You are also correct with respect to the damaged starch/absorption issue. Damaged starch can absorb about three times more water than non-damaged starch. That suggests that damaging more of the starch provides more sites for the amylase enzymes to convert damaged starch to sugars. It also suggests the possibility of increasing the hydration of the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:30:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 07:42:07 PM »
Peter:

I've attached a photo of our pizza. I use Caputo and the Forno Bravo formula, mixing at speed 1 for 5 minutes, speed 2 for 5 minutes. It rises for 3-4 hours at room temp and is then punched, scaled and refered until service. It's pulled top room temp 1-2 hours before service. The oven is a wood-only Woodstone Mt. Adams. Let me know if anything jumps out at you or if you have any suggestions.

 


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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 08:58:51 PM »
Mo,

I assume the Forno Bravo dough formulation you are using is this one: http://www.fornobravo.com/pizza/pizza_dough.html. Is that correct? If so, which Caputo flour are you using, the Caputo Pizzeria flour or the Caputo Extra Blu? And what is a typical time that the dough is in the cooler before using and what temperature are you using to bake the pizzas?

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:01:05 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 09:37:12 PM »
Peter:
That is the same formula. We are using the pizza flour (55# sack from Forno). Cooler time is around 6-10 hours. Oven temp is 770-800. 

Offline JConk007

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 09:52:40 PM »
Pizza looks good to me!
So thats the blue Caputo pizzeria 00  from forno right Peter ? not the  caputo sold at penn mac? or is that the same Penn mac alot cheaper with shipping BTW than forno.

I am trying to dial in wfo dough recipeds for spring
John
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:56:17 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2009, 10:56:19 AM »
Mo,

I ran the Forno Bravo dough formulation you have been using through the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html in order to get a better feel for the formulation and what it was designed and intended to do. This is what I got:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
ADY (0.60%):
Salt (2%):
Total (167.6%):
500 g  |  17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs
325 g  |  11.46 oz | 0.72 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
838 g | 29.56 oz | 1.85 lbs | TF = N/A

The above dough formulation is typical of those all too common one-size-fits-all dough formulations that are seen in cookbooks and intended to be used for both a short room temperature fermentation (in this case, only 2 1/2-3 hours) and, a much longer fermentation, in this case through the additional use of cold fermentation for some unspecified period. I personally am not a strong believer in dough formulations that try to do double duty, that is, be used for both room-temperature fermentation and cold fermentation. My preference is to use one dough formulation that is designed specifically for room temperature fermentation and a second one that is designed primarily for cold fermentation (which might also include a short period of room temperature fermentation before refrigeration). Usually a dough formulation for a room temperature fermentation will call for more yeast than one intended for a cold fermentation. In your case, the high amount of yeast called for in the Forno Bravo dough formulation will have the tendency to limit the period of cold fermentation, which means that you will limit the time during which fermentation byproducts that contribute to the finished crust flavor, color, texture and aroma are allowed to develop. If the period of cold fermentation is allowed to go too long, there is the risk of overfermentation and sugar depletion. It is hard to say without running a lot of tests where the outer limit is for the Forno Bravo dough formulation but I perhaps wouldn't want to go out to more than 1 day or so. The high hydration of the Forno Bravo dough, 65%, will also have the effect of accelerating the fermentation process, further shortening the window of usability of the dough. On the flip side, if one uses too short a fermentation period, whether at room temperature or in the cooler, or some combination of both, the risk is of insufficient creation of natural sugars through amylase performance and, hence, insufficient residual sugar levels in the dough at the time of baking to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration.

There are several examples of 00 dough formulations that are intended for use for cold fermentation at the following thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.0.html. That thread was initiated in an attempt to reverse-engineer a cold-fermented Neapolitan style dough as made and used by the highly-regarded A16 restaurant in the San Francisco area. I believe that that thread makes for a fascinating read and is highly educational, but at 19 pages of posts, I sense that there is reluctance to read the entire thread. Consequently, I attempted to isolate some of the better cold fermentation formulations from that thread and to provide the relevant links at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3673.msg30921.html#msg30921.

In line with the above, not long ago, the current chef at A16 and some associates came out with a cookbook, A16 Food + Wine, in which a Neapolitan style cold fermentation dough recipe for home users is given at pages 117-118. If you go to amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com/A16-Food-Wine-Nate-Appleman/dp/1580089070/?tag=pizzamaking-20, and use the book search feature ("LOOK INSIDE"), you will be able to see the actual dough formulation and the dough preparation and management methods utilized. Moreover, starting at Reply 308 in the A16 thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg61643.html#msg61643, there was a series of posts directed to the A16 cookbook dough recipe, culminating in an attempt on my part to convert the A16 dough recipe from volume measurements to baker's percent format, at Reply 329 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg61872.html#msg61872. I have not personally tried that version but I can tell that it should work based on the collective experiences of our members as detailed in the A16 thread.

You will note that the dough formulation at Reply 329 calls for using oil in the dough. I believe that the oil is included since home users do not usually have very high temperature ovens and some oil is advisable to keep the crusts from drying out excessively and becoming cracker like. For very high temperature applications, the oil can be omitted. In such a case, it may be necessary to tweak some of the other ingredient values in the dough formulation.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2009, 11:11:40 AM »

So thats the blue Caputo pizzeria 00  from forno right Peter ? not the  caputo sold at penn mac? or is that the same Penn mac alot cheaper with shipping BTW than forno.


John,

The little bags of Caputo 00 flour sold by Forno Bravo, and others as well, is the Caputo Extra Blu. That is a lower protein flour and is not the one you want to use. The one you want to use is the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, which comes in the large bag as shown, for example, at http://www.pennmac.com/items/3201, or in the small bag, as shown, for example, at http://www.pennmac.com/items/3765 and sold under the name The Chef's Flour. That product is misnamed at the Forno Bravo website as Caputo Rosso (http://www.fornobravo.com/store/Caputo-Tipo-00-Flour-p-1-c-23.html). 

Peter

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 12:46:48 PM »
Peter:

Any observations on the pizza pictured? I would like it to have some more bubbly spotting (I guess what you guys call "leoparding") which I knew I would not get so much without a longer fermentation. I have some experience with sourdoughs and am used to seeing the bubbly effect of traditional sour loaves, boules baguettes etc...The flavor of the crust pictured is pretty good, somewhat neutral, but has a nice bit of toothiness and contrasting tenderness. The crust comes out rather crispy without being crackery. These last two traits are positive and are ones I want to preserve. We are having some issues with longevity but are dialing in the usable window. I am going to try a batch today with a straight cold fermentation but will look over the links you posted before I do. I am also ordering some of the Italian cultures from sourdo.com to begin developing another dough option. Since this is a foodservice application, I was nervous about getting into managing a very long, somewhat unpredictable dough process. However, I am starting to see that this road is inevitable as I am not totally convinced that the pictured pizza is as good as I can do. It's good but not phenomenal. I am looking for unforgettable. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks a ton for your interest and responses. I know this is all ground you've covered before but it is a sign of your dedication to the art of pizza that you keep answering questions!


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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 02:22:39 PM »
Mo,

Maybe I have been brainwashed by Marco (pizzanapoletana) and others, but I have always viewed room temperature fermentation to be the "purest" and best application of the 00 flour, for technical and other reasons as we have discussed, and that cold fermentation using 00 flour is a "bastardization" of the process mainly to achieve better control and management of the entire process and, as a consequence, avoiding having to either throw away unused dough or find a way of using it as scrap or as "old dough" for the next batch. Clearly, in the U.S., at least, the latter philosophy predominates the former.

When I looked more carefully at the Forno Bravo dough formulation you have been using, I thought that 2 1/2-3 hours of room temperature fermentation before being able to use the dough was far too short, and considerably less than the roughly 8 hours (two stages) of room temperature fermentation/maturation that I thought was pretty standard in Naples for most operators. I suspect that if the Forno Bravo dough were allowed to ferment at room temperature for 8 hours with 0.60% IDY, it might overproof and not produce particularly good results. If I were using the Forno Bravo dough formulation in a cold fermentation environment, I think that I would reduce the hydration to a value more commensurate with the absorption rate of the 00 flour, reduce the amount of yeast, let the bulk dough sit at room temperature for about an hour, if that, and then go straight to the cooler after dividing the bulk dough into individual dough balls. With respect to the pizza you showed, I am hard pressed to offer much useful comment because I do not have experience with high-temperature ovens but I am not sure that you optimized the dough preparation and management process by using 2 1/2-3 hours of room temperature fermentation and 6-10 hours of cold fermentation. I would think that you could get more usable life out of the dough by using the protocol mentioned above and using a longer cold fermentation period made possible by that protocol. It is essentially that protocol that is built into the cold fermentation dough formulations mentioned in my last post.

I think you will get value added in using natural preferments for 00 doughs, which I view as being the best manifestation of the Neapolitan style dough.

Peter

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 05:01:39 PM »
OK, so starting today I've got a couple different methods working:

Cold Ferment- Water 61%, ADY .78%, Kosher Salt 2.73%; Mixed speed 1 for 3 min/speed 2 for 3 min.; out room temp 1 hour (expecting it to go maybe 12 hours in cooler)

Warm (Room Temp) Ferment: Water 60%, ADY .25%, Kosher Salt 1.8%; mixed speed 1 for 3 min. out at room temp (Hoping it will go 12-18)

The first formula is one of the links posted by Peter for cold fermentation (I don't think I altered it). The second one is my own semi-educated guess at the proper proportions for a room-temp fermentation. For storage I use lexan containers/lids with a healthy amount of EVO slathered in them. Our kitchen stays around 68-70f degrees and our coolers a steady 38-40f.

By this time tomorrow I should be able to report on the processes. I will cook some pizzas tomorrow night and see how they come out, perhaps post a pic or two...


Mo.

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2009, 10:46:23 PM »
Well, I tried to post this earlier and lost it all after typing in the reply so let's try it again....

Cold Fermentation- After using the quatities outlined above I let this mix sit out for one hour at room temp and the stuck it in the cooler. I think because I rehydrated the ADY in warm water it got things going a little fast as I had to punch after two hours. Then again after 5 more hours although it had slowed considerably. I then left it for the night at 9pm. Came in at 8am and it had risen about 60% more so I pulled it out and let it temper a bit before scaling and forming.

Warm Fermentation- Yikes. This stuff, even at .25% went quick, again due at least in part to my rehydration technique (old habits die hard). Had to punch after 1-1/2 hours and again at 5 hours. At this point I gave up and threw it in the cooler with the other one. Came in at 8am and found it had risen over double again. Punched and pulled it to rest before scaling and forming.

Scaling/Forming- Both doughs, though a little cool, handled nicely and were easy to round up. Scaled everything at 204g for 10-11" pies. Yielded 31 out of each. Let them finish tempering/proofing in their respective boxes on the bench for about 1-1/2 hours.

Cooking- Oven at 760-775. The cold-ferm doughs had proofed again nicely, rising about 30-40%. Stretched very easily (as all have in my experience with 00, such a nice flour to work). The warm-ferm doughs did not proof as much, rising only another 20-30%.

Tasting Notes- The cold-ferm dough had nice bubbly spotting with some small but present scaly/fermenty finish on the crust. This effect was a little less noticeable (surprisingly) on the warm-ferm crust. Both browned fairly well and were tender and quite delicately crispy. Bottoms crisped firmed/crisped nicely. Taste-wise they were nearly identical but the aesthetics of the cold-ferm had me calling it the winner. The warm-ferm dough had a little less oven spring as well.


I think, to sum, that I will wait for my cultures to arrive before I try another warm-fermentation. The cold process will work nicely for us in the interim as I hammer out the ultimate process.

I am attaching photos of the process....

Offline Mo

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Re: Flour Profiles
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 10:47:42 PM »
Here's the rest of the story in pictures...


 

pizzapan