Author Topic: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan  (Read 10987 times)

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Offline dzpiez

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Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« on: March 08, 2009, 11:24:58 PM »
Thought I'd play around with Peter Reinhart's book "American Pie".  Ended up making his Neo-Neapolitan dough and was pretty surprised how good it turned out.  I was just wondering if anyone every tried to figure out the bakers % of this recipe.  The only thing different I did was I used 50% Caputo pizzeria flour and 50% high gluten flour, and baked it around 700 degrees in one of Willards 2Stone oven.

The recipe is

5 cups (22 1/5 ounce) high-gluten or bread flour
1 tablespoon sugar or honey
2 teaspoon salt
1teaspoon idy
2 tablespoons olive or vegetable oil
1 3/4 cup plus 1 tablespoon room-temp. water (70 degrees)

~dave


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 06:53:25 AM »
i think its a 65% water and 0.45 IDY and 2% salt......
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 11:20:24 AM »
Dave,

The Reinhart recipe you posted is from page 112-113 of his book and is also reproduced pretty much in full at http://musingrecipes.blogspot.com/2006/01/neo-neapolitan-pizza-dough.html.

I believe that you meant to post that the flour weighs 22 1/2 ounces rather than 22 1/5 ounces.

For the version of that recipe using sugar rather than honey and using olive oil rather than vegetable oil, the baker's percent version of the recipe as prepared using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html looks like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (67.2247%):
IDY (0.47222%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (4.2328%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Total (175.55472%):
637.88 g  |  22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs
428.81 g  |  15.13 oz | 0.95 lbs
3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1119.82 g | 39.5 oz | 2.47 lbs | TF = N/A

My numbers show a slightly smaller dough ball weight, 9.88 ounces, than the 10 ounces mentioned in the Reinhart recipe. The 9.88 ounce dough ball, when used for a 12" pizza, translates into a thickness factor of 0.087314. That value can be used in the expanded dough calculating tool to produce any other size pizza in any desired quantity. For example, for a single 16" pizza, the numbers would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (67.2247%):
IDY (0.47222%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (4.2328%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Total (175.55472%):
283.5 g  |  10 oz | 0.63 lbs
190.58 g  |  6.72 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.34 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
4.96 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
12 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.67 tsp | 0.89 tbsp
5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
497.7 g | 17.56 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = 0.087314
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Peter


Offline dzpiez

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 03:10:17 PM »
Thanks

Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2011, 09:52:11 PM »
I'm going to make a dough tonight using this recipe. I'll sub ADY for IDY at a 125% conversion rate.  When the recipe is converted to a 12" pie in the Pizza Dough Calculator I obtained the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (67.2247%):
ADY (.590275%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (4.2328%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Total (175.672775%):
151 g  |  5.33 oz | 0.33 lbs
101.51 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.89 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.39 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.42 tsp | 0.47 tbsp
2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
265.26 g | 9.36 oz | 0.58 lbs | TF = 0.0827314
I'll post pictures of the final product once it has been eaten.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2011, 10:06:54 PM »
o
I'll post pictures of the final product once it has been eaten.

johnamus,

Will you be using an upper GI endoscope? :-D

Peter

Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 10:47:21 PM »
You mean you don't want to see how well this recipe digests? :P  I'll be sure to take the photos prior to eating the finished pie.  
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 10:47:25 PM by johnamus »

Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2011, 10:46:05 PM »
Tonight was supposed to be the night of the bake, but I ended going out to eat instead.  Faced with the options of either making this pie as a late night dessert or pushing the bake back an additional day, I will opt for the latter. 

So this will now be a three day cold ferment.  Since I'm not yet experienced enough to glance at a recipe and deduce the optimal ferment time... what's the ideal cold-ferment time for this recipe?  (It's been in the fridge ever since its birth two nights ago)

Pictures of the dough are included below.  Since going in to the fridge the dough has nearly doubled and has flattened out considerably.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2011, 11:35:56 PM »
I've found them to be best "after" 3 days....should be excellent

John

Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 09:21:43 PM »
Made the pizza tonight and I was pleased :) It had a light airy crust with a hint of crispiness on the exterior surface, along with a somewhat sweet-tasting complex crust.  With respect to crust color it resembled a New York street style pizza more than a Neapolitan.  Any ideas on how to alter the recipe to obtain more contrasty spotting on the cornicione without using a WFO?  Should I reduce oil and sugar percentages?


Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2011, 09:49:02 PM »
johnamus,

You did a great job with your Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan pizza.  :) I really like your nice airy crumb.  I think you did get good crust browning.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 09:05:40 AM »
Made the pizza tonight and I was pleased :) It had a light airy crust with a hint of crispiness on the exterior surface, along with a somewhat sweet-tasting complex crust.  With respect to crust color it resembled a New York street style pizza more than a Neapolitan.  Any ideas on how to alter the recipe to obtain more contrasty spotting on the cornicione without using a WFO?  Should I reduce oil and sugar percentages?

I think you will find that the coloration you are asking about comes with high heat, rather than a change in ingredient percentages.  Having said that, baking your pizza at a much higher heat will also change the texture...so, it comes down to...what are the limits of your oven, and what kind of texture do you prefer.  Your pizza looks wonderful as it is, and as you experiment realize that you are designing a pizza given the constrains of what your oven can do.

John

Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2011, 02:50:31 PM »
Thanks Norma and John,

Reinhart's recipe as translated by Peter gave me what I was looking for, namely a light and bubbly cornicione and a tender crust with a hint of crispiness.  I asked for advice about spotting because I see the beautiful leopard spotted Neapolitan's posted on this forum and want to emulate the coloration, but as you mention John I suppose that these spots are out of my grasp by a measure of a few hundred degrees fahrenheit.

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2011, 03:23:04 PM »
johnamus,

I did use Reinhart's Neo-Neapolitan dough in a WFO one time and it worked out well.  They only thing you can do if you want spotting like a Neapolitan pie is to do oven tricks.  Scott 123 probably can help you with that if your oven can get to high enough temperatures.  You would have to post what kind of oven you have and other information.

Norma
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Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2011, 05:34:45 PM »
I have a GE Profile Oven very similar to the newer model here: http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PT956SRSS.  The extent of my knowledge is that it's top temperature setting is 550 and it has convection available in the top oven.  I've recently been using the "Roast" setting, which heats via the broiler element while the convection fan runs.



Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2011, 05:41:13 PM »
Looking through the manual it looks like I can increase the temperature by 35.  Are there any other easy adjustments I can make?

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2011, 06:48:52 PM »
johnamus,

Maybe Scott123 won't see your posts about your oven.  If you PM him about your post, maybe he will give you some direction in how to use your oven.  Maybe there are other members that can help you too.  I am not good with knowing how to get Neapolitan bakes out of a home oven.  You could also start another thread about what you would like to do with your home oven. 

Norma
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 06:54:40 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2011, 08:01:39 PM »
I'm here ;D

Johnamus, 35 deg. will help, but, in order to achieve true Neapolitan bake times and the characteristic leoparding that they bring with them, you're going to need to change your oven setup a little more dramatically. Here's two options:

1. 3/4" steel plate supported by steel bars

3/4" steel plate is usually too heavy for oven shelves to carry, so you'll want to run two bars from shelf lip to shelf lip and sit the plate on that. 3/4" + 585ish deg. should give you Neapolitan bake times on the hearth, and, if you position the plate near the top of the oven, the broiler should be able to match that bake time on the top of the pizza.

2. 1/2" steel plate w/ foil covering the rest of the shelf

This is a little less DIY because you're not fashioning supports for the plate, but requires the purchase of an infrared thermometer to confirm plate temps. With the foil in place, the bottom of the oven will get a bit hotter, and, with the thermostat being isolated in the upper part of the oven, you won't have a clear reading of the plate temp.

The foil technique has been played around with a bit, and, so far the results are extremely promising, but no one on the forum has actually used it for Neapolitan pizza.  It might require two layers of foil (perhaps crumpled in such a way that there's air pockets), but it will work.  The 3/4" approach, from what I've heard was used successfully in the book, Modernist Cuisine, but, as of this moment, it's yet to have been attempted by any forum members.

Regardless of the lack of real world testing, these are, imo, the top two candidates for Neapolitan in an electric home oven.  1/2" steel plate, for the dimensions that you'll need, will run you, at most, $50, along with the time it takes to source a local metal supplier, while the time it takes to cover the shelf with foil is negligible.  Comparing $50 + maybe 2 hours labor to the kind of massive expenditure of time and money it takes for a WFO, I think it's well worth a try.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 08:03:53 PM by scott123 »

Offline johnamus

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 09:21:09 PM »
Thanks for the help Scott. I found a few suppliers in my area that could provide the necessary metal:


What are your thoughts on the toxicity from certain types of steel when used in food prep?  Without a ton of knowledge about metals I'd assume a nickel-chromium like 304 is best while galvanized types would need to be avoided.  If that's the case then I'd need to spend a lot more than $50 :-\

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Re: Reinhart' Neo-Neapolitan
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 10:14:40 PM »
Johnamus, you definitely do not need 304 for food.  Hot rolled steel is perfectly fine.  Cooking with hot rolled steel is no different than cooking with cast iron. In fact, assuming cast iron provides health benefits because of the trace amounts of iron that end up in food, steel should provide those same benefits, although, to be honest, I don't think you're going to end up with too much iron on the bottom of a pizza cooked on steel.

Member Buceriasdon seasons his steel, but, for the temps you're going to be working at, I think the seasoning might bake off. Regardless of whether or not you season the steel, it makes no difference in regards to safety.

This is the stuff you want

http://www.onlinemetalstore.com/items/A36_Hot_Rolled_Steel_Plate.cfm?item_id=189&size_no=6

Call your two places and see if they will cut you a piece of A36 hot rolled steel.  If you think you're going to stick to strictly Neapolitan pie sizes (12"-14"), I would go with a dimension of 15" x 15". That should definitely run you less than $50. If you think you might be getting into NY sizes (16"-18"), it might be a bit more, but, be aware, not only will you have to provide supports for an 18" x 18" x 3/4" plate, that's getting into a realm (70 lb.) that might be difficult to carry. 18" x 18" x 1/2", at 45 lb, shouldn't be that hard to carry and, like I said earlier, should have have no problems being supported by the shelf, but, like I said, for Neapolitan, you'll need to go the foil and IR thermometer route.

I generally recommend getting a square plate, as large as your oven can fit.  Since most ovens are wider than they are deeper, this allows for air flow on the sides. If you are going as large as you can, make sure you measure the oven extremely carefully, as there's frequently lips and protusions that can end up surprising you when you get the plate in and the door won't completely close. I recommend cutting a dummy out of cardboard.


 

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