Author Topic: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?  (Read 13625 times)

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Offline EJB

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #120 on: March 23, 2009, 06:09:46 PM »

High Temperature: This increases gas production and decreases gas retention. Low temperatures give strong doughs that rise slowly, while high temperatures give weak doughs that rise quickly.


Peter,

Maybe you can shed some light on this. I always use similar recipe for my dough and use a 24-30 hour cold rise with very consistant results.

100% KASL
63% water
0.3% ADY
2% salt

Last time I tried some olive oil becuase I felt my oven dried the crust a bit when cooking at 550'

100% KASL
63% water
0.3% ADY
2% salt
1% olive oil

Only this time I did a 12 hour counter rise and the dough was considerably less elastic then when I do a cold rise. In my totally uninformed opinoin it would seem that the warm rise dough was stronger, Could this be due to the olive oil?

By the way the dough was marginally better with the oil when it came out of the oven but was much better when it was reheated the next day.

Also regarding the whole gas production/retention issue would modifying salt/sugar content for a 48 hour cold rise as opposed to a 24 hour cold rise make a noticable difference in the end product. In other words is this worth experimenting with consideting the results will be judged by eye and mouth instead of by a radionanospectrafermentometer?

Ed


Offline Essen1

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #121 on: March 23, 2009, 06:41:18 PM »
Mike,

After reading the above quote, I saw that I had the case reversed in my earlier post (which I corrected). A longer temper time will usually produce a more open and airy crumb than a shorter temper time. You will often see this when you are making several pizzas over a period of a few hours. The last dough ball will often be the softest and most highly risen with the most bubbles.

Peter


Peter,

What about overfermenting, if the doughs left out too long at room temp? Happened to me before.

However, over the weekend I had four dough balls temper in a wooden dough box for a whopping 8 hrs and even though the dough was very easy to handle and shape, had a nice structure, didn't tear at all and had that silky-soft - for the lack of a better term - feel to it, it seriously lacked oven spring.

So there is a time limit of having individual dough balls temper at RT, it seems. I had better results in the 2.5 - 3 hr range.

But thanks for clarifying your post. It's always appreciated  :chef:
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 07:01:07 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline andreguidon

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #122 on: March 23, 2009, 07:35:56 PM »
Mike,

After reading the above quote, I saw that I had the case reversed in my earlier post (which I corrected). A longer temper time will usually produce a more open and airy crumb than a shorter temper time. You will often see this when you are making several pizzas over a period of a few hours. The last dough ball will often be the softest and most highly risen with the most bubbles.

Peter

thats true peter, i always bake around 10 pies (because of the WFO), and after the 5th pie the pizzas start getting better and better...
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2009, 07:56:16 PM »
Ed,

In my experience making all kinds of doughs, including long, room-temperature fermented doughs and cold fermented doughs, my results have mirrored the effects described in the material you quoted. With particular respect to room-temperature fermented doughs, I found that the fermentation temperature was an extremely powerful force, especially in the summer where room temperatures where I live in Texas can exceed 80 degrees F for long stretches. Both yeast and enzymes are more active, and also more efficient, at warmer temperatures than at cooler temperatures, so you can expect more fermentation activity and more enzyme activity than you will get in a cold fermented dough over normal fermentation periods. In addition to the accelerated fermentation because of the high room temperatures, there are also protease enzymes in the flour that attack the gluten and soften it and cause the water bond to be broken, resulting in a weakened, slack and wet dough. In my experiments, it did not much matter whether I used oil in the dough or not. In many instances, the amount of oil was over 7% of the formula flour. In my case, to slow down the fermentation process, I found it necessary to reduce the amount of yeast to miniscule quantities--less than 1/10th of what you used in the two dough formulations you posted. Had I not done so, I would have ended up with a weak structured dough with poor gas retention.

In your case, with only 1% oil, I am not sure how much effect it would have on your dough in terms of its strength. Since you are using KASL, which is a high protein flour, that flour can utilize a fair amount of oil, perhaps considerably in excess of 1%. So, its possible that 1% oil will have minimal effect. As you noted, the oil will have modest effect on slowing down staling and drying of the crust because of its effect to retain some of the moisture in the dough, by preventing the moisture in the dough from evaporating as much or as quickly during baking. Sugar in the dough can have a similar effect. A crust made using a dough without oil or sugar will go stale rather quickly, much as a freshly made French baguette has to be eaten quickly while the crumb is still soft.

As for your question about the effects of salt and sugar on a 24-hour cold fermented dough as opposed to a 48-hour cold fermented dough, the answer will depend on the amounts of each ingredient. Salt is considered to be a regulator of the fermentation process, with high levels slowing down the fermentation process and low levels increasing it. Of course, there are limits to how much salt you can use in a dough, not only because of the effects of salt in regulating the fermentation process but also because of taste and tolerance factors. The recommended range of salt in yeasted doughs is around 1.5-2%. Sugar can also affect dough performance by inhibiting yeast activity if it is used in excess. As noted in the following excerpt from http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm, both salt and sugar can exert osmotic pressure on yeast.

Osmotic Pressure

The osmotic properties of a yeast cell are due to selective permeability of the cell wall with regard to solutions. This selectivity plays an important role in controlling the movement of nutrients into a cell. Nutrients are present in a medium in the form of ions, sugar, and amino acids. The permeability of the cell wall also permits the release of alcohol and carbon dioxide from the cell during fermentation.

High concentrations of sugars, inorganic salts, and other solubles inhibit yeast fermentation as a result of effects produced by high osmotic pressures. Basically, all fermentable sugars begin to exert an inhibiting effect on yeast when their concentration exceeds about 5% in the dough, with the degree of inhibition becoming progressively greater as the concentration of the sugar rises. This inhibitory effect is more pronounced with such sugars as sucrose, glucose and fructose than with maltose. The last sugar is a disaccharide that persists as such in the fermenting medium, and therefore exerts a lower osmotic pressure than the monosaccharides and the readily hydrolyzed sucrose, The sensitivity of yeast to osmotic pressure varies with different yeast strains, with some being better suited than others for fermenting sweet doughs with their high sugar contents.

Salt exerts a similar osmotic effect, except that some fermentation inhibition appears to set in at concentrations below the normal 2.0% level. A decrease in gas production occurred over a four (4) hour period  when the concentration of sodium chloride was increased from 1.5 to 2.5% in a straight dough. One percent (1%)  salt, based on flour, exerts an osmotic effect that is equivalent to that of 6% glucose.

Salt in concentrations over 1.5% exerts an inhibitory effect on yeast activity, either by its osmotic pressure or by a specific chemical effect. For this reason, Salt is generally withheld from the sponge in the sponge-and-dough process. Interestingly, it has been shown that at lower levels, rather than being detrimental, salt actually exerts a favorable influence on yeast fermentation, A series of studies have shown that the use of 0.5 to 1.0% salt in the sponge of a sponge-and-dough process resulted in reductions in the fermentation time, while at the same time producing a better quality bread than was obtained with a sponge containing 0.15% or no salt.


In my opinion, rather than using salt and sugar as vehicles for altering dough performance, it is perhaps better to adjust the amount of yeast used, together with the hydration and fermentation temperature, in order to have a desired end effect on the finished product. Water temperature can also be used to affect the fermentation process. As an example, if you want to extend the window of usability of a 24-hour cold fermented dough to 48 hours, you can do this by reducing the amount of yeast and/or using cooler water. Reducing the hydration can have a similar effect, however the hydration can't be lowered too much without affecting the handling qualities of the dough. I frequently do all of the above, that is, use less yeast, cooler water, and a slightly lower hydration. I don't use salt or sugar for fermentation control. If I were in Naples making authentic Neapolitan room-temperature fermented doughs, I would use salt quantity for fermentation control purposes. But not for cold fermented doughs. Ultimately, you want to have balance of all the ingredients in the dough formulation and proper dough preparation and management to achieve acceptable gas production and retention. It often takes a fair amount of experimentation to achieve these results.

Peter

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2009, 08:28:46 PM »
What about overfermenting, if the doughs left out too long at room temp? Happened to me before.

However, over the weekend I had four dough balls temper in a wooden dough box for a whopping 8 hrs and even though the dough was very easy to handle and shape, had a nice structure, didn't tear at all and had that silky-soft - for the lack of a better term - feel to it, it seriously lacked oven spring.

So there is a time limit of having individual dough balls temper at RT, it seems. I had better results in the 2.5 - 3 hr range.

Mike,

To paraphrase Harry Callahan: A man's got to understand his dough's limitations. This understanding is usually achieved from experience or from a comprehensive knowledge of dough performance that allows you to reasonably predict the dough's behavior over time, up to and including its possible demise from overfermentation. Most people get into trouble because they overestimate the window of usability of their doughs. If a dough formulation is used properly with respect to the outcomes it can produce, a cold fermented dough made using the dough formulation should be able to endure a tempering period of close to five hours at normal room temperatures. The "window" will be less for a dough made using a lower protein flour, such as an all-purpose flour, and wider for a dough made using a high-gluten flour, such as KASL. Of course, it is important in all cases to be aware of the room temperature and take that into account in using the dough balls.

Room-temperature fermented doughs can be especially challenging, especially for long periods of fermentation at even modest room temperatures.  In your case, if you used normal amounts of yeast for an 8-hour room temperature fermented dough, the dough will usually ferment quite quickly and can easily overferment. The last 8 hour room temperature dough that I made used only 0.10% IDY, which was far less than I would normally use for a cold fermented dough. Also, in your case, if you did not use any sugar in the dough, it is also possible that your dough had low residual sugar levels at the time of baking, along with an excessively low pH level, to be able to achieve proper oven spring. I don't know if your dough balls suffered in this manner, but these conditions are usually present with an overfermented dough or a dough about to overferment.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2009, 08:49:19 PM »
Peter,

I know what you're thinking.

Did he bake 4 pies or only three? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. 

Well, actually I did only make three. Anyway, I did a cold-rise for 12 hrs overnight first and then right after taking it out of the fridge, divided it into 4 350gr dough balls and placed the in the wooden dough box. The amount of yeast was fairly low, .2% and the salt amount was 2.5%.

And given what you've said in you reply, I think I might just have passed that window even though I used the SB flour, which is actually pretty high in protein.

I guess Harry was right...a man's got to know his limitations. At least occasionally. Like your avatar says...always learning.  :chef:

« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 09:02:52 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2009, 09:03:05 PM »
Mike,

I misunderstood your post in that I thought you only used a room-temperature ferment, not an 8-hour temper period after a period of cold fermentation. It is still possible, however, that the combination put the dough out of the window of usability. The longest temper period that I have ever read about was by a member (Les) who experimented with 9 hours of tempering, as he discussed at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17143/topicseen.html#msg17143.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2009, 09:23:28 PM »
Peter,

I mentioned the 12 hr cold-rise in reply #108...

Quote
However, I did a 12 hr bulk cold-rise and an 8 hr individual counter-rise of four pies over the weekend. The individual dough balls were stored in a wooden dough box and the texture and handling capabilities of the dough were great, but it lacked significant oven spring.


When mixing the dough, I followed Evelyne Slomon's advice she gave to a member over at the PMQ forum. I incorporated her autolyse method also.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=825&highlight=totonnos#825

I didn't experience a very gassy dough, like Les did with his 9 hr dough, in all four dough balls. They rose nicely but not excessively and had spring back when you pushed down on them with a couple of fingers. But they did lack oven spring. I wish I was able to take some pics but my batteries died and the cam kept shutting off automatically.

Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #128 on: March 24, 2009, 06:36:48 PM »
Mike, yeah I actually rested my current brewing dough for a small rest in the middle of kneading. I don't know if it would make much difference, it was mostly for a rest for me. I really wanted to make sure these were kneaded enough, and I know a mixer is the standard way and all, but it would just takes the fun out of it for me.

That wood box sounds pretty cool.  8)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:26:45 PM by NY pizzastriver »
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #129 on: March 28, 2009, 10:01:56 AM »
After 3 1/2 days cold these two pies sat out for a counter rise for ...longer than I would have liked. Like a girlfriend is ever on time? HA! Instead of 3 hrs out it was about 4 1/2. The dough became very soft, not so bubbly this time though, and as you can see by shape on 1st pie it stretched way too much in one direction. I did my best to make it round, but it oval-ed again when going to stone. The stone also heated for about 90 mins at 550. She loved them! Frankly, my best so far as far as thinness. Still not as much puff as 1st pie in rim, as you can see in crumb shot of sausage and onion pie. She said "Its like the crust isn't even there, so light and airy". She also thought it was better than slices we had in NY once, but I know better, lol. I purposely took the cheese pizza out earlier, crust was softer as a result, very tasty. Look at the light coming through the bottom! The homemade sauce and sausage slow cooked for 5 hrs, then sat in the fridge for a day to "bond". Here they are, thanks for reading!
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #130 on: March 28, 2009, 10:11:09 AM »
J,

All things considered, I think the pizzas turned out quite well. Once you get beyond about three days with the Lehmann dough, the risks increase because of the extended fermentation, so you were fortunate (lucky?) the dough persevered just long enough for you to pull it off. I think you are getting the hang of it.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #131 on: March 28, 2009, 10:18:44 AM »
Thanks Peter! I did heed your advice and added the 2% sugar this time since we knew it would be longer. The flavor was really fantastic. I'm proud of these, and no leftovers!

I have a follow up Q for you, and all. I'm now using block mozzarella, Sargento this time, and with every pizza I've made I have a puffing white rim and cheese that is already liquidating and bubbling. Point is I then have to wait for the rim to brown and the cheese perhaps is over cooked. Tastes good, but as you can see its orange and really melted. Is this typical in your pizzas? I'm on the floor rack position. Both pies cooked in about 4-5 mins.

Compare it to the amazing Glutenboys pies, see how his is still white.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7761.0;attach=12640;image
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 10:22:04 AM by NY pizzastriver »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #132 on: March 28, 2009, 10:49:24 AM »
J,

I am not the best one to ask questions about cheeses because where I live in Texas there are not many good cheese choices. The best cheese I found for my purposes was a house brand, Best Choice, that I can no longer get because the store that sold it changed hands and the new owners decided not to continue the product. I bought and froze several pounds before the actual changeover but have now run out and will have to search out a new brand to try. I am not familiar with the block Sargento cheese but in general the Sargento brand does not seem to be one of the more popular ones among our members. Unless you can find a better choice, you might try putting the cheese (e.g., shredded or diced) cold onto your pizzas in order to slow down its breakdown and oiling off. You might also try using the cheese in chunk form, to achieve similar results. When I made cracker-style pizzas, I put the cheese down first and then the sauce, which also worked out well to protect the cheese from breaking down. I realize that that is not a NY style treatment. I believe it is more NJ style, which you may not want to dignify as a former New Yorker by adopting that style.

From what I have read, Glutenboy's oven is an unusual one, so I wouldn't try to compare what you get in your oven with what he gets in his oven. Now that you seem to have a higher comfort level with your pizza making, you might try his dough formulation and see how it works in your oven.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #133 on: March 28, 2009, 11:36:01 AM »
Good tips, and sorry to hear about the cheese there. The chunk idea, and cold first are good ideas. Yes, I just asked him about his thoughts on hand kneading it. Curious to see his thoughts. I also see he uses a mix including Boar's Head moz! I do have access to that, they do make the best cold cuts, so stands to reason.
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Offline PizzaHog

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #134 on: March 29, 2009, 02:42:53 PM »
Quote
I have a follow up Q for you, and all. I'm now using block mozzarella, Sargento this time, and with every pizza I've made I have a puffing white rim and cheese that is already liquidating and bubbling. Point is I then have to wait for the rim to brown and the cheese perhaps is over cooked. Tastes good, but as you can see its orange and really melted. Is this typical in your pizzas? I'm on the floor rack position. Both pies cooked in about 4-5 mins.


Hey Striver
Having tried well over a dozen diff cheeses and half of those mozz, I have noticed that every dang one reacts to the same heat differently.  Here was one cheese experiment.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8015.0;attach=13454;image
So half the battle may be just finding the right one for you.  Plus the methods already mentioned may help like thick sliced or chunked or even frozen.
Your pizza chops are gettin hot!  Well done!
Hog   

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #135 on: March 29, 2009, 03:14:50 PM »
Hog, thanks! Yes that picture says it all, cool experiment! I also wanted to correct myself when I said Sargento, it's actually Sorrento whole milk moz, my bad. I put the link below, but I only pay about $6 a block at the store. I just got another block, and I'm going to try the 'freeze it for an hour or so before use' idea. I have quite the task ahead as a buddy is coming tomorrow, and everyone wants a different pizza!  :o
Girlfriend wants anchovies, I assume you put them on cold from the can? (Anyone into anchovies please chime in!) I'm making one of my favorite pizzas ever, shrimp and fresh garlic! And since our friend "isn't a fan" of either he's getting pepperoni and green pepper. So I just tripled the one ball recipe, no sugar since it's a 1 1/2 day fridge, and a little less oil this time. What a mixing and hand knead that was! (huff huff)

https://www.maxdelivery.com/nkz/exec/Product/Display%3Bjsessionid=DB2185A9AAE78C2511F4238458940BDC?productId=260049607
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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: A Jeff V pizza recipe, what do you think went wrong?
« Reply #136 on: March 31, 2009, 10:38:07 AM »
Pesci Pesci!
So no pepperoni last night, buddy rescheduled. This is raw and cooked shots of shrimp, anchovy, roasted garlic and fresh basil. Then just shrimp, garlic and less basil. The second pie I misjudged the flop to stone, so I had to push edge back on. It was round once! Char shot is dark, but you can see great light passing through. Very nice puff, good stuff. I over sauced based on thinness and think the shrimp should be prepared differently next time so as not to secrete so much juice.  Also mozzarella was sliced frozen, may have added even more moisture, but it didn't break down nearly as much so hats off to Peter and Hog! 'Twas half a knife and fork affair, but really good though.  ;D

J.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:41:55 AM by NY pizzastriver »
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