Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 67613 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #120 on: April 24, 2012, 03:05:03 PM »
Jamie,

I have set forth below the three tests I mentioned earlier, along with some discussion and some links to other posts and threads that might be useful.

The Gluten Mass Test for Flour Samples. The gluten mass test that Norma and I have been using to determine the gluten content of different flours is the test described for a 9-ounce dough ball at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,783.msg7865/topicseen.html#msg7865. For some examples of where Norma conducted several such tests on different flours, see the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.0.html. What this test is intended to tell us is the type of flour in question, such as an all-purpose flour, a bread flour, a high-gluten flour, etc., based on the amount of gluten extracted from the test dough.

Gluten Mass Test on a Dough Sample. In addition to conducting a gluten mass test on a dough made using a given flour, the gluten mass test can also be conducted on a sample of a dough, such as a sample of a Papa Ginoís dough in your case. The test is conducted the same way as discussed above although the dough sample might be smaller, for example, 5 ounces. For a couple examples of the test conducted on an existing dough sample, see Reply 1066 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168234.html#msg168234 (test conducted on a sample of a Mellow Mushroom dough and a sample of a Mellow Mushroom clone dough) and Replies 40-50 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171520.html#msg171520 (test conducted, along with other tests, on a sample of a defrosted Pepeís dough ball).

Hydration Bake Test. This test is conducted to determine the amount of water contained in a test sample of dough, and from which calculations can be done to determine the hydration of the dough sample. For details on how to conduct the hydration bake test, see Reply 899 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194, Reply 967 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166947.html#msg166947 and Replies 1038-1041 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168113.html#msg168113. See, also, the hydration test results discussed in the posts referenced in the last paragraph.

Oil Test. This may well be the hardest test to conduct, especially if there is only a small amount of oil in the sample of dough being tested. For details on how to conduct the test, see the series of posts starting at Reply 1522 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg175937.html#msg175937. I also conducted a series of oil tests at Reply 1612 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg178642.html#msg178642, Reply 1623 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg179329.html#msg179329, Reply 1631 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg180239.html#msg180239, Reply 1636 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg180427.html#msg180427 and Reply 1649 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg181430.html#msg181430. In between these posts, there is further discussion of the oil tests. Your oil test would most likely be like the one I described at Reply 1623 referenced above but with different percentages of ingredients.

As you can see, it took Norma and me a fair amount to time and work to refine the tests, so if you have any questions, feel free to ask. If I canít answer them, Norma may be able to help you.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #121 on: April 24, 2012, 03:07:20 PM »
Jamie,

BTW, I love that photo of the sweet little girl eyeing the pizza with admiration.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #122 on: April 24, 2012, 10:42:55 PM »
Jamie,

I think Peter explained everything well in conducting all the tests on a dough ball.  If you need anymore help, I am also willing to help you.

Norma
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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2012, 09:03:56 AM »
I opened my bag of Spring King flour today and did a gluten mass test on it. I mixed exactly 6oz flour to exactly 3oz water kneaded for about 5 mins. Weighed the dough after mixing(i used my hands bc don't  have a mixer) it came in at 8.9oz.
  I let it rest 15 mins then began rinsing/kneading under a stream of cold water from my sink until the water was clear about 18 mins(my hands are still cold as I write this :)). I then let it rest on a folded paper towel for a minute.
  I weighed it and it came to 74.8g. The dough still felt very moist so I kneaded it in my hands hoping some of the excess moisture would be absorbed. I weighed it after a minute of hand kneading and the weight was 74.0g

I hope I did this right :D. If I get out of work before 10:00pm tonight I will buy another dough from Papa Ginos to test for gluten mass on their dough Ill post tonight if all goes well!
Jamie

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #124 on: April 26, 2012, 10:39:17 AM »
Jamie,

BTW, I love that photo of the sweet little girl eyeing the pizza with admiration.

Peter

I get that look at my house all the time. It's the "You've taken enough pictures, can I PLEEEEEASE eat it now" look.  :-D

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #125 on: April 26, 2012, 10:39:51 AM »
Beautiful pie too, by the way, Jamie!
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #126 on: April 26, 2012, 11:39:22 AM »
I opened my bag of Spring King flour today and did a gluten mass test on it. I mixed exactly 6oz flour to exactly 3oz water kneaded for about 5 mins. Weighed the dough after mixing(i used my hands bc don't  have a mixer) it came in at 8.9oz.
  I let it rest 15 mins then began rinsing/kneading under a stream of cold water from my sink until the water was clear about 18 mins(my hands are still cold as I write this :)). I then let it rest on a folded paper towel for a minute.
  I weighed it and it came to 74.8g. The dough still felt very moist so I kneaded it in my hands hoping some of the excess moisture would be absorbed. I weighed it after a minute of hand kneading and the weight was 74.0g

I hope I did this right :D. If I get out of work before 10:00pm tonight I will buy another dough from Papa Ginos to test for gluten mass on their dough Ill post tonight if all goes well!


Jamie,

It looks like you performed the Spring King flour gluten mass correctly. However, since your final dough ball weight was 8.9 ounces instead of 9 ounces, by extrapolation your 74.8 grams of gluten becomes 75.64 grams. Now, if you look at the latest Master gluten mass list at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328, you will see that the extrapolated value of the Spring King gluten mass is in the bread flour category. In actuality, it might be somewhere in between the bread flour and high-gluten flour categories. Usually, to fine tune the gluten mass number, it is a good idea when you have a supply of a given flour to conduct additional gluten mass tests and average the values. If you decide to do that, what you might want to do to get a full 9-ounce sample of the Spring King dough to work on is to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and use a bowl residue compensation to compensate for any dough that might stick to things, including your fingers. For example, you might use a bowl residue compensaton of 3%. At that value, it is likely that the final dough will be more than 9 ounces but you can then scale the dough weight back to 9 ounces. In this example, this is what the dough formulation would look like:

Spring King Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
Total (150%):
175.2 g  |  6.18 oz | 0.39 lbs
87.6 g  |  3.09 oz | 0.19 lbs
262.8 g | 9.27 oz | 0.58 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 3%

FYI, when I conduct gluten mass tests on flour, I try to squeeze as much water out of the gluten mass as possible once the rinse action is complete. And I don't let the gluten mass rest on the paper towel for more than a minute since it is possible for some of the gluten mass to stick to the paper towel.

Doing a gluten mass test on a sample of Papa Gino's dough is somewhat trickier because even if you use a 9-ounce sample, that sample is not just flour and water. It also contains salt, yeast and oil. That will mean a reduced gluten mass value. So, for your next test, you might want to do the hydration bake test. Eventually, you can do another gluten mass test with a sample of the Papa Gino's dough but using the in-situ gluten mass test method (in a bowl with a fixed amount of water). As part of the same test, you would also do the oil test. These tests are described in some of the posts I referenced earlier in this thread.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #127 on: April 26, 2012, 04:06:17 PM »
Jamie, you've got, what I believe, is the best pizza flour on the planet.  Why are you messing around with gluten mass tests? Make some friggin pizza already!  ;D

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #128 on: April 26, 2012, 10:39:39 PM »
Tell you the truth scott, ive actually get this been sick of pizza this week :o. So i wanted to do some science! They say the average american eats 40 slices of pizza a year I eat that in like 10 days gotta take a break for a little ;D
Jamie

Offline scott123

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #129 on: April 26, 2012, 11:44:35 PM »
 ;D

Let me tell, you, Jamie, you might be tired of pizza, but, if you get the hydration and fermentation right on the Spring King, you have the potential to make a pizza you will never tire of. It's that good.


Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2012, 12:53:03 AM »
;D

Let me tell, you, Jamie, you might be tired of pizza, but, if you get the hydration and fermentation right on the Spring King, you have the potential to make a pizza you will never tire of. It's that good.

Scott, I hope I like this pizza as much as you do when I make m first pizza with this flour :). However that would create a problem although a good one if there is such a a thing. The supplier that I was leaning towards using someday (cara donna) doesn't carry this flour so Id have to switch suppliers to reinhardt bc they're the only ones to have this flour in my area. What makes it so special?

Peter,
I did the gluten mass test on the PG dough, I don't know if this is good news or conflicting news.
I took 255g of dough then kneaded it under a stream of water for 15 minutes the water was running clear I squeezed the as much water as I could out of it and let it rest on a paper towel for a minute then weighed it.   It came in at 73.8g.

Ill do another test on the Spring king tomorrow to see if my results from today are in the ballpark in comparison to earlier todays results.
Jamie

Offline scott123

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2012, 12:57:56 AM »
What makes it so special?

I can't say it's inherently superior to other 12.7%ish protein bromated flours (such as Full Strength), but, from my time using it, it's the perfect storm of reliable milling, an ideal amount of protein for most pizzas, and the magic of bromate.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #132 on: April 27, 2012, 09:15:35 AM »
Peter,
I did the gluten mass test on the PG dough, I don't know if this is good news or conflicting news.
I took 255g of dough then kneaded it under a stream of water for 15 minutes the water was running clear I squeezed the as much water as I could out of it and let it rest on a paper towel for a minute then weighed it.   It came in at 73.8g.

Ill do another test on the Spring king tomorrow to see if my results from today are in the ballpark in comparison to earlier todays results.


Jamie,

For now, I am comfortable with both gluten mass values you have come up with--the one for the approximately 9-ounce dough ball made only from the Spring King flour and water and the approximately 9-ounce dough ball that you purchased from Papa Gino's and made with flour, water, salt, yeast and oil. As far as I am concerned, the more data we have on the gluten for the Spring King flour and real PG doughs the better we will be able to zero in on the actual value (by averaging the multiple samples). To get more accurate values, one would have to use a piece of sophisticated laboratory equipment such as a Glutomatic (for details, see http://www.granotec.com.br/arquivos/Sistema_Glutomatic.pdf). But even with that equipment, the instructions suggest using two samples and using the mean of the two samples. In some cases, a third sample might be required, in which case an average of the three samples is taken. Since we are operating in a nonscientific setting (e.g., the home), more samples is the best we can do to get an approximation of what a Glutomatic machine produces.

If Papa Gino's is still using the Spring King flour, that flour is considered a strong flour. You can see some of the specs for that flour at http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/spring_king_spring_patent.html. Those specs, along with the gluten mass values you derived from your tests, tentatively suggest a flour that is between a bread flour and what we typically call a high-gluten flour. However, as I pointed out in Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1881.msg28897/topicseen.html#msg28897, a flour with a protein content of the Spring King flour (nominally 13.2%) is sometimes called a "medium high gluten" flour. The gluten mass values you derived would seem to fit the medium high gluten description. That aside, the best that the raw gluten mass values can tell us is the type of flour. It can't tell us the brand of flour. Also, different flours with the same or similar protein contents can have different amounts of gluten. You can see that phenomenon in the Master list of gluten mass values that I mentioned earlier.

Where the gluten mass values will be most useful is after you have conducted the hydration bake test. The results of that test should help us dial in the hydration of the PG dough and also dial in values for the flour, yeast and salt. Once the oil test is conducted, and assuming it is successful, that should help us dial in a value for the oil. As you may know, Papa Gino's operates on a commissary model and delivers fresh dough balls to most of its stores within its delivery area on a twice-a-week basis (and on a three day cycle for some stores). Most of the PG stores are in Massachusetts but there are 16 stores in New Hampshire and a fair number of stores in Rhode Island. There are only a handful of stores in Connecticut and only one store in Maine, so I believe that those stores make their dough in-store. Can you tell me which NH store you purchase your PG dough from and do you know whether it is delivered from the PG commissary? The answer to the latter question will dictate the amount of yeast used in the dough at the particular PG store you visit. If it is delivered dough, then the yeast (I assume IDY) will be on the low side since the dough has to last up to, say, 3-5 days, or until the next delivery. As for the salt, I am guessing around 2% based on the PG pizzas I have purchased in the past. Since you are a professional and may have an idea as to salt levels from your work, do you have a feel for the salt level used by PG? For example, are the PG crusts saltier than the crusts where you work?

If you think of it, you might also want to weigh the future PG dough balls that you purchase. The first PG dough was 466 grams but commissary produced dough balls can vary on one side or the other by a a quarter- or half-ounce. For our purposes, we might use the average of the weights of the PG dough balls.

Are you having fun?

Peter
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 09:27:48 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #133 on: April 27, 2012, 01:52:23 PM »
Peter,
 
  I did a hydration bake test following the instructions you gave me. I used an exactly 10g sample of PG dough stretched in the lid of some spaghetti sauce. Iused the toaster oven. about 200-220f. it weighed 19.5g including the lid. I poked some holes in it and weighed it every hour for 4 hours. The weight stayed the same from hour 3 to 4 so I was confident it stabilized it was 15.4 and holding.
 I have a second hydration bake test going right now. Ill post those results later.
 
 I also did a oil test following the directions you posted. I took exactly 5oz PG dough sample and 2 cups of warm water kneaded it for 15 minutes in the water. After 15 minutes I rinsed the left over gluten with about an ounce of clean water back over the bowl of water(to get of any starch or oil that was stuck in the gluten mass) I poured the water into a plastic cup. I let it settle until all the starch was at the bottom. Its in the freezer right now. Ill post later on that.
 I weighed the left over gluten from the oil test it weighed 36.5g.


 Yes Im having fun I tried explaining the reason why I'm buying PG dough to a coworker he looked at me like Im crazy :-D. I buy fom the Papa Ginos on Hooksett rd in manchester nh. The store is ran by mostly teenagers so I don't think they make dough in house but Ill ask next time. Salt level I would guess 2.25% very flavorful.

 I did another gluten mass test with the spring king this time exactly 9oz of dough was used followed the same method as the first time. The gluten weighed 75.5g.


Jamie

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2012, 12:12:08 AM »
I completed the oil test tonight, I used a butter knife to get the oil off the top. When I got as much as I could which was 3.8g.
A thought came into my head. there was still on oily film on the top of the ice block. My girlfriend has these oil absorbing sheets. So I wiped the surface with one and weighed it it was .5g so I don't know if that could be considered too.

my 2nd hydration test was 15.4g again.
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #135 on: April 28, 2012, 07:46:59 AM »
Jamie,

Thank you for the additional test data.

The gluten mass value for the latest test with the 9-ounce Spring King dough ball, 75.5 grams, is in line with the extrapolated value of 75.64 grams from the first test using the 9-ounce Spring King dough ball. The average of the two values is 75.57 grams.

I'd like some clarification on the results of the two hydration bake tests. Here is my summary of the numbers for the first of the two hydration tests you reported (in Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15978.msg184667.html#msg184667):

1. Starting Papa Gino's dough sample = 10 grams
2. The weight of the lid and the dough skin before baking = 19.5 grams; therefore, the lid weighed 19.5-10 = 9.5 grams
3. The weight of the lid and the dough skin after baking = 15.4 grams; therefore, the weight of the baked skin was 15.4-9.5 = 5.9 grams
4. The weight of the water lost during baking = 10-5.9 = 4.1 grams, or 4.1/10 = 41%

If the above summary is correct, can you describe in detail, preferably step by step, how you prepared the 10-gram piece of dough and baked and weighed it?

Also, when you extracted the 0.5 grams extra of oil, was that weight of the oil only or the weight of the oil plus the absorbing sheet?

In the meantime, I will play around with the numbers to see what they suggest.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:48:37 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #136 on: April 28, 2012, 08:36:21 AM »
Peter,

For the hydration bake test, here is what I did both times, I cut an exactly 10g piece of dough from the PG dough. I flattened it between 2 pieces of saran wrap. I put it in the lid(which weighed 9.5g) stretched it the rest of the way. I cooked it in the toaster oven.
 The baked skin weighed 5.9g. for a loss of 41%

I weighed the oil absorbing sheet before I used it. It didn't register on the scale at all. after wiping the surface it was .5g in weight
Jamie

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #137 on: April 28, 2012, 08:45:58 AM »
I just weighed the oil absorbing sheet again and still no reaction from the scale. I placed 3 sheets on the scale and it registered at .3g so 1 sheet is probably less than but close to .1g
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #138 on: April 28, 2012, 09:32:10 AM »
Jamie,

The reason why I asked you about the methods you used is because the 41% water loss number is suspect. A dough that has a 41% water loss will be stiff and on the fairly dense side. In fact, the Mellow Muchroom doughs that Norma and I have been working with--both using a real sample of an MM dough and clone versions--have a roughly 40% water loss. More recently, Norma and I did tests on a defrosted Pepe's dough, which is much more likely to be like a Papa Gino's dough, and calculated a water loss of 45.1%. You can read about the results of the Pepe's hydration bake test at Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171520.html#msg171520. That test, along with the gluten mass test, eventually led to the Pepe's clone dough formulation at Reply 69 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg172097.html#msg172097. That formulation essentially nailed the Pepe's dough formulation.

I think why your 41% number does not work is because you omitted a couple of steps: baking the 10-gram skin at an elevated temperature for a few minutes to cause the flattened skin to puff up, and splitting the puffed up skin into two halves before continuing the bake. My recollection is that I used a small piece of aluminum foil to hold the two halves while they continued to bake (I also let the oven cool down from the elevated temperature to about 212 degrees F before continuing the bake). In my case, it took anywhere from about 6 to 12 hours to complete the hydration bake tests, and during that time I periodically checked my toaster oven temperature with an infrared thermometer to be sure that the temperature was in the roughly 200-220 degrees F range, making slight adjustments as needed. Also, when I periodically weighed the two halves, I let them cool down a bit before weighing because I found that my small digital scale behaved erratically when I tried to weigh the halves while they were hot. The same thing would happen, but with even greater inaccuracy, if I tried to weigh the metal lid while hot. I suspect that the scale's electronics did not like hot things.

By omitting the steps mentioned above, I suspect that there was still some moisture trapped in the skin that could not escape. If that moisture is evaporated, I would expect the final weight of the two halves to be lower than what you got.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #139 on: April 28, 2012, 11:20:52 AM »
I will redo the hydration test tonight. I thought it seemed off bc the hydration definitly isnt 55% its higher.

What are your thoughts on the oil?
Jamie