Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe (Read 49908 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #100 on:** June 18, 2009, 09:34:00 AM »

John,

I don't think that Papa John's and Papa Gino's are really comparable since they make different types of pizzas. But, for a chain type pizza, I like them both. It's hard to explain but I think part of the affinity comes from living with both styles and studying them intensely in my reverse engineering/clone efforts. If I didn't get as close to the pizzas as I did, I might not have liked them as much.

One of the reasons I liked my own versions of the PG pizzas is that I liked my blend of the three cheeses better. I didn't mention it earlier, but I couldn't really detect the white cheddar cheese in the PG pizza I purchased. In fact, it wasn't until the pizza had been eaten that I noticed that. The white cheddar cheese I use jumps out at me with my blend. So, it's possible that PG is using less of the cheddar cheese than I used. My blend also is speckled with the dried oregano. From where I stood as the pizza makers made the pizzas, I could not see the oregano. I also liked the use of the semolina flour in my original clone. I think that is a nice addition even if it is not part of an authentic PG dough.

Overall, PG is like any other chain trying to make a profit. They are not trying to make an artisan product with the best available ingredients. They look for consistency in their products from store to store and use marketing hype like "secret dough recipes" and "secret sauce recipes" with origins in Italy to disguise the fact that they are making a pretty mundane product. In a home setting, we can ignore all of that and just make the best pizzas we can using the best ingredients and not try to cut corners in doing so.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #101 on:** June 19, 2009, 12:44:20 PM »

After my last reply, I noticed that there was a place at the Papa Gino's website for people to provide feedback to Papa Gino's. So, I decided to use that feature to inquire why the 14" pepperoni pizza I purchased from them recently weighed 28.7 ounces instead of the 34.71 ounces that I calculated from their nutrition information at their website. In my message, I mentioned that I understood that the 34.71 ounces was the weight of a cooled baked pizza. I sent my message this morning and received a reply shortly thereafter, as follows:

Dear Peter,

There are several factors that can affect the weight of a pizza. Nutritional information is based on standard recipes, before cooking. Because the product is calculated before cooking, we experience some moisture loss. In addition, there are many variances due to human error. Dough is produced at our own commissary, and while the dough divider is set to a standard weight, sometimes there can be discrepancies when the dough is divided. At the restaurant level, toppings are weighed volumetrically, using standard measuring tools. Using these tools can affect the weight that goes on the pizza as each item is not weighed, but the cups for cheese and ladles for sauce are simply filled by the pizza maker.

If you have any additional questions regarding nutritional information, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Sincerely,

Jillian Greene

Culinary Research & Development Specialist
Papa Gino's, Inc. & D'Angelo Grilled Sandwiches

After receiving that response, I went back to check the corresponding weights (unbaked and baked) for the first PG clone pizza that I made and described at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404. In that case, the unbaked pizza weighed 33.79 ounces and the baked pizza weighed 29 ounces. So, my numbers were very close to the PG numbers. I did a similar comparison with the second PG clone pizza that I made and described at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71789.html#msg71789. In that case, the unbaked pizza weighed 36.27 ounces and the baked pizza weighed 32.80 ounces. These numbers are both too high but it will be recalled that I increased the amount of dough for the second pizza by two ounces (from 16 ounces to 18 ounces) to boost the weight of that unbaked pizza to get it closer to what I believed to be the Papa Gino's number. I can now see that the numbers for the first PG clone pizza are more accurate. However, there can still be variances because of the differences in ovens and related baking methods.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #102 on:** September 24, 2009, 11:22:49 PM »

Member scott r mentioned in another thread recently that one of the flours that Papa Gino's apparently uses or has used is the Spring King Spring Patent flour, as described at http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/spring_king_spring_patent.html. That flour is a bleached, bromated flour with a protein content of 13.2%. In my experiments under this thread, I modified my flour blends to achieve a protein content of around 14%. I personally don't use bromated flours, but it should at least be possible to supplement a nonbromated flour such as the King Arthur bread flour to raise its protein content from 12.7% to 13.2%. In fact, the difference is so slight that very little vital wheat gluten would be needed to raise the protein content of the KABF to 13.2%.

Peter

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #103 on:** June 12, 2010, 02:53:12 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on August 24, 2009, 10:39:57 AM

Jim,

In defense of the Papa Gino's clones, I'd like to say that they did not remind me of a Lehmann pizza or a Glutenboy pizza. The dough formulations may look similar but the preparation, management and baking methods and procedures are different.

Peter

And right you were on all counts, not to mention the 15% semolina factor that inspired me to try this 10 months later. I think since this was before my fresh pasta makin' days I barely noticed this flour alteration. Anyway, I just made my first Gino's following this formula, but doubled as I made 2 balls.

Quote from: Pete-zza on March 29, 2009, 12:04:40 PM

KABF/Semolina Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (60.7%):
IDY (0.375%):
Salt (1.5%):
Total (162.575%):
283.19 g | 9.99 oz | 0.62 lbs
171.9 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs
1.06 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.25 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = N/A
* The KABF/Semolina Flour Blend includes 240.7g. (8.49 oz.) KABF and 42.48g. (1.50 oz. ) semolina flour
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I didn't have the dough sticking to hook issue. I did batter stage with whisk attachment and added flour until it got too thick. The spiral was on for 8 minutes straight after that. I was afraid it would be too dry due to the semolina, but it handled beautifully by hand after.

I was concerned that the pasta flour would have an unusual affect, sure enough quite the anomaly transpired in the bulk mix. (pic 1) With a few hand kneads and division all was fine though. (pic2)

Today 2 days were up so I made the 1st. I had it out of the fridge for 2.5 hrs, the oven preheated for 470 degrees for an hour per your protocol. This was a 450g ball so it took that long to hit closer to room temp. The dough handled great, as you said as well, easy to stretch with good extensibility. I have no screen or 15" pan to use as one so I had to let it settle for 2 mins stretched so it held its size. No problem, frankly I made it too big as you can see by the flattened custom fit front. (pic 3) It baked for a long time, 8 mins, yet the rim stays golden like in your pics. I was surprised. I suppose the golden semolina has something to do with this...maybe.

For the sauce I used... well the same sauce I always make. (Made between 6:30 and 11:30 today) The pie was sausage/pepperoni/ green peppers with block and fresh mozzarella. (pic 4) Nice golden bottom as well, also like your pics. (pic5)

The pizza was good, very Americana in texture, but with hints of NY. What I mean is the crust was bready and chewier like American pizza, yet had a slight crackle at the bottom, all the while being thin and floppy enough to fold. (pic 6 floppy enough for ya?) Hard to explain, but yeah it had many characteristics. What I noticed was the semolina's bursts of flavor. Again as I make a lot of fresh pasta it's a flavor I am in tune with of late. I really loved this most. It was almost sweet, yet no sugar was incorporated. It was hearty, yet not heavy or grainy. All in all delicious with many subtle flavors to enjoy! I found the 15% addition to make for a whole different pizza experience, and yes nothing like Lehmann or GB, you win. I recommend it to all as a new thing to try out, it's less than rare that I try a new thing so based on that you can too.

How it compared to Gino's: Well since I have never been to a Gino's, or even know what Gino's you are all speaking of, I can safely go with "It's exactly the same!"

Peace

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #104 on:** June 12, 2010, 02:54:11 PM »

pics 5 and 6

Pete-zza · « **Reply #105 on:** June 12, 2010, 03:58:35 PM »

Jim,

You did a nice job. Your pizza looks very tasty.

I agree that the semolina is a nice touch although after I used it I discovered that Papa Gino's does not. As to the matter of pizza type, on occasion, I have read where some people look at a Papa Gino's pizza as being a NY style although I don't ever recall Papa Gino's itself calling it a NY style. The Papa Gino's pizza is certainly not an artisan looking pizza, as is Glutenboy's, for example. It is intentionally baked--maybe underbaked is more accurate--to have a fairly light crust and somewhat of a gum line. I haven't yet tried baking a Papa Gino's clone pizza directly on a pizza stone. It is possible that it would look more like yours. In my experience, a pizza screen has a way of restraining oven spring and slowing down the baking. In due course, I expect to try baking a Papa Gino's clone pizza directly on a stone just as you did. Maybe you did not see it, but I posted the dough formulation I plan to use for my next PG clone effort, at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11101.msg99983/topicseen.html#msg99983. I thought that I would wait to see how Sal, the member who requested help in that thread on the Papa Gino's style, makes out with the recipe I came up with for him to use.

One of the things I really liked about the Papa Gino's clone pizzas is that the leftover slices reheat very nicely. So, if I ever wanted or needed to make a pizza in advance to use solely for reheating in the form of slices, a PG clone dough would be one of my first choices.

Peter

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #106 on:** April 17, 2012, 10:44:35 PM »

(Note: The following posts up to and including Reply 205 were split from another thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15978.msg165811.html#msg165811, and merged with the other posts in this thread in order to keep all of the Papa Gino's reverse engineering and cloning posts together--Pete-zza)

My brother and I ate lunch today at Papa Ginos. Well he did I didn't have much of an appetite, but before we left I purchased one of their large dough balls for $1.50.
I had some pizza sauce and cheese I wanted to use up in the fridge at home and I was curious how their dough would turn out in my oven.
First thing I noticed was there were some black dots on the dough ball, I remember reading about those spots on encyclopizza but I can't access that info anymore so I forgot what they mean. The dough had a good amount of water in it, and it had a yellow tint to it not bc of the cornmeal they dusted it with.
When I got home I preheated the oven. The dough opened so nicely, I sauced and cheesed it and baked it until it looked about ready used the broiler a lot of the time.
So I was kind of hoping I wouldn't like this dough that much, that wasn't the case at all this pizza was fantastic perfectly chewy with the perfect ratio of dough to sauce and cheese. It was closer to having the eye appeal I striving for... a perfectly imperfect looking pizza you know toppings irregularly spaced out, a little sauce on the rim here and there some char on the top crust and cheese that looks cooked but not burnt.
Its kind of a bummer bc when I bought the dough ball the manager said she would sell me it this tome but she can't let anything raw leave her store so I can't buy it anymore when I happen to go there $:-\$

Pete-zza · « **Reply #107 on:** April 18, 2012, 06:04:41 AM »

Jamie,

You can read about the phenomenon of spotting of pizza dough at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032.

I wonder what the yellow coloration is from. Do you have any idea? Some time ago, a new member who apparently worked for Papa Gino's or who was otherwise familiar with their dough hinted that there was some mystery ingredient in the dough but did not volunteer what it is.

It's too bad that you can't get another dough ball from Papa Gino's. There are some tests that could be done to try to reverse engineer and clone the dough.

Peter

EDIT (2/1/2013): For additional discussion on spotting of pizza dough, see the Correll items 18 and 19 at http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #108 on:** April 18, 2012, 07:54:09 AM »

I was certain that there was some semolina included in the dough, I went on Papa Ginos website however and the dough ingredients didn't say so but I swore it tasted like it. Thats what I thought gave it its slightly yellow tinge.
I also detected a slight sweetness that was very pleasant, however no sugar was stated in the dough ingredients. So it made me think that there was something else in the dough that wasn't listed. But I could be way off
There are several Papa Ginos in my area I could just ask for dough at a different location see what they say, because Im curious about two things the taste and how the dough was so perfect for handling it wasn't sticky at all even though there was a good amount of water in it and I don't recall oil being listed in the dough ingredient either.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #109 on:** April 19, 2012, 08:58:13 AM »

Jamie,

I took a look at the PG ingredients list (http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=ingredients) and the PG Nutrition Facts (http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=pizza) to see if they help answer the questions about the semolina and sweetness in the crust. As you can see, the ingredients for the crust ("pizza shell") are wheat flour, dry yeast, salt, water, soybean oil. Companies are not required to disclose ingredients but when they do, they normally list the ingredients by their predominance by weight. In this case, the ingredients are not in order since there is obviously more water by weight than yeast, salt and soybean oil. As for the semolina issue, the term "wheat" is broad enough to encompass both semolina and the regular pizza flour used by PG (believed to be a bleached and bromated Spring King flour with a protein content of 13.2%). If sugar were added to the dough, it should be listed in the ingredients list. Normally, one wouldn't try to hide ingredients by not listing them in the ingredients list because of allergy and dietary concerns. However, these sorts of things can and do happen.

On the matter of sugar, I looked at the PG Nutrition Facts. One slice from a large PG (14") cheese pizza (the easiest to analyze) has a total of 16 grams of sugars, or 2 grams per slice. "Sugars" in this case does not mean only added sugar (sucrose). The term "sugars" can also cover simple and complex sugars that are naturally present in the flour (and semolina, if used), in the cheeses (mozzarella and cheddar, but only a minuscule amount in the Romano cheese) and in the sauce. And not all of these sugars are as sweet as ordinary table sugar. It would take some work to try to calculate the total quantity of "sugars" in a whole pizza or even a slice but at this point I am not inclined to think that PG is adding sugar (sucrose) or some other form of sweetener to their dough. But we can't rule out the possibility given the "loose" ingredients list given at the PG website for the "pizza shell". Also, since PG uses a cheese blend, it is harder to know the actual mix percentages and the total amount of the cheese blend used.

If you are able to purchase another PG dough ball, you might want to weigh it (preferably in grams) since that can help determine the amount of flour (or flour blend) used. The "sugars" in the dough are all measured with respect to the weight of the flour(s).

You mentioned the high moisture content of the PG dough ball you used. Can you estimate the hydration of the dough ball? Some time ago, I played around with some PG clone doughs and pizzas in which I used some semolina (based on what a former PG employee said about the use of semolina flour by PG), and I noted that the hydration of the dough with the semolina can be different than a dough without it. A dough can also have a higher water content if it is long in fermentation, since enzymes in the dough can attack the gluten and cause it to give up some of its water content, making the dough seem wetter than a normal dough as originally prepared.

Peter

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #110 on:** April 19, 2012, 02:36:23 PM »

I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news is the papa Ginos that is on my way home from work sold me some pizza dough last night, and looks like there will be no problem in the future if I need to buy more dough. They charged me double the price than they did the other day but hey its the best bought pizza dough Ive ever had by far.
The bad news is my memory was a little off the dough balls I examined last night were a grayish color not yellowish like I previously thought, However they still have those black spots on them.

I made pizza for lunch today with the dough I bought last night, imported ham and pineapple over cooked the bottom a little but it was still really good

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #111 on:** April 19, 2012, 02:45:53 PM »

oh yeah my guess would be the hydration is 62% very soft dough. I have another dough ball that i purchased last night Ill weigh that tonight when I get home Ill weigh it in grams to be the most precise.

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #112 on:** April 19, 2012, 11:27:51 PM »

Weighed my dough ball from Papa Ginos tonigh it came in at 466 grams... However a little cornmeal was still stuck on it.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #113 on:** April 20, 2012, 07:00:19 AM »

Jamie,

Thank you.

Is the PG dough ball you weighed (466 grams = 16.44 ounces) for a 14" pizza? PG uses a commissary to make their dough balls and, as a result, there are small variations in the weights of the dough balls delivered to their stores. I suspect that the standard weight for the dough ball you purchased is 16 ounces.

Peter

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #114 on:** April 20, 2012, 07:39:15 AM »

Peter,

Do you have any links that could get me close to this dough formulation i really like this pizza
Thanks!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #115 on:** April 20, 2012, 08:43:20 AM »

Quote from: Kostakis1985 on April 20, 2012, 07:39:15 AM

Peter,

Do you have any links that could get me close to this dough formulation i really like this pizza
Thanks!

Jamie,

There was a PG dough clone recipe I intended to try but never got around to doing (I was awaiting for member Sal's results that never came) is the one that I set forth in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11101.msg99983.html#msg99983. In your case, as a professional, you might be able to find a source of the Spring King flour, which is the flour that PG was using at the time I did my original reverse engineering and cloning work.

In your case, you are fortunate in that you have a real PG dough ball. If I were in your shoes, I would conduct a hydration bake test on a 10-gram sample of the dough in order to try to determine the hydration of the dough. I would perhaps also do a gluten mass test on another sample in order to see if the protein content is the same as the Spring King flour, on which I would do a separate gluten mass test (assuming I had some of that flour to test).

Finally, I would do an oil test in order to try to determine the amount of soybean oil in the dough. For some reason, I did not previously attempt to determine the amount of soybean oil that PG was using in its dough. Back when I was doing my PG reverse engineering and clone work, I did not know as much as I now know about how to do such work. Even now it might be difficult to determine the oil quantity because PG uses a three-cheese blend of unknown proportions and we really don't know how much of such blend PG uses on its pizzas. For your purposes, you might just try using 2% soybean oil to see if that works. That amount, along with a formula hydration of 60%, would create a dough that would feel like it has a hydration of around 62%. Ideally, you would want to use the Spring King flour since that would be an important component of a PG clone dough--maybe the most important component. In using the expanded dough calculating tool, I would perhaps use around 16.25 ounces of dough for a 14" pizza based on your recent weight measurement. If you would like, I might be able to revise one of the PG clone formulations I came up with previously to reflect the above changes. I might also be able to provide links that describe the tests mentioned above.

Peter

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #116 on:** April 20, 2012, 01:00:16 PM »

Yes definatly I would like to try those tests on PG dough sounds like fun, ill see if I can source some spring king flour never seen or heard of it though.
Also why would their cheese blend have anything to do with the oil in the dough formulation?
Thanks!

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #117 on:** April 20, 2012, 02:43:07 PM »

I did some phone calling and think I may have a source for spring king flour. A friend of mine uses Reinhardt for their orders and according to progressive baker Reinhardt distributes teir products. So im awaiting to see if they could order me a bag.. If all goes well itll be here tuesday.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #118 on:** April 20, 2012, 03:19:28 PM »

Quote from: Kostakis1985 on April 20, 2012, 01:00:16 PM

Also why would their cheese blend have anything to do with the oil in the dough formulation?

Jamie,

You are very perceptive to ask that question. If you rely only on Nutrition Facts, the way you determine how much oil might be used in the dough is to look at the amounts of total fats and saturated fats, both of which are constituents of soybean oil in a predetermined quantitative relationship (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/507/2). The problem is that the mozzarella cheese, the cheddar cheese and the Parmesan cheese also contain total fats and saturated fats. Unfortunately, all of the total fats and saturated fats are lumped together in the Nutrition Facts. If you knew the exact cheeses and their amounts used by Papa Gino's, then you could do some calculations to isolate the total fats and saturated fats for the three cheeses (and also a small amounts of these fats in the flour) and consider the balance in the Nutrition Facts to be total fat and saturated fat for the soybean oil. Even then, the numbers can be off because of rounding factors. The oil test I mentioned isn't perfect but it is about the only such test I know to use in a home setting without using professional laboratory equipment.

I am away from home this week but when I have a chance I will try to post some links to the three tests I mentioned. I should forewarn you, however, that for the three tests you will want to use a digital scale that can weigh out small amounts of ingredients to at least 0.1 gram and preferably 0.01 gram.

Peter

Kostakis1985 · « **Reply #119 on:** April 24, 2012, 02:51:08 PM »

My bag of Spring King Spring patent flour came today! I have a digital scale that can measure in .1 gram increments.

I made a margherita pizza today with some PG dough I bought last night. Very tasty