Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 94363 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #125 on: April 26, 2012, 10:39:51 AM »
Beautiful pie too, by the way, Jamie!
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #126 on: April 26, 2012, 11:39:22 AM »
I opened my bag of Spring King flour today and did a gluten mass test on it. I mixed exactly 6oz flour to exactly 3oz water kneaded for about 5 mins. Weighed the dough after mixing(i used my hands bc don't  have a mixer) it came in at 8.9oz.
  I let it rest 15 mins then began rinsing/kneading under a stream of cold water from my sink until the water was clear about 18 mins(my hands are still cold as I write this :)). I then let it rest on a folded paper towel for a minute.
  I weighed it and it came to 74.8g. The dough still felt very moist so I kneaded it in my hands hoping some of the excess moisture would be absorbed. I weighed it after a minute of hand kneading and the weight was 74.0g

I hope I did this right :D. If I get out of work before 10:00pm tonight I will buy another dough from Papa Ginos to test for gluten mass on their dough Ill post tonight if all goes well!

Jamie,

It looks like you performed the Spring King flour gluten mass correctly. However, since your final dough ball weight was 8.9 ounces instead of 9 ounces, by extrapolation your 74.8 grams of gluten becomes 75.64 grams. Now, if you look at the latest Master gluten mass list at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328, you will see that the extrapolated value of the Spring King gluten mass is in the bread flour category. In actuality, it might be somewhere in between the bread flour and high-gluten flour categories. Usually, to fine tune the gluten mass number, it is a good idea when you have a supply of a given flour to conduct additional gluten mass tests and average the values. If you decide to do that, what you might want to do to get a full 9-ounce sample of the Spring King dough to work on is to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and use a bowl residue compensation to compensate for any dough that might stick to things, including your fingers. For example, you might use a bowl residue compensaton of 3%. At that value, it is likely that the final dough will be more than 9 ounces but you can then scale the dough weight back to 9 ounces. In this example, this is what the dough formulation would look like:

Spring King Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
Total (150%):
175.2 g  |  6.18 oz | 0.39 lbs
87.6 g  |  3.09 oz | 0.19 lbs
262.8 g | 9.27 oz | 0.58 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 3%

FYI, when I conduct gluten mass tests on flour, I try to squeeze as much water out of the gluten mass as possible once the rinse action is complete. And I don't let the gluten mass rest on the paper towel for more than a minute since it is possible for some of the gluten mass to stick to the paper towel.

Doing a gluten mass test on a sample of Papa Gino's dough is somewhat trickier because even if you use a 9-ounce sample, that sample is not just flour and water. It also contains salt, yeast and oil. That will mean a reduced gluten mass value. So, for your next test, you might want to do the hydration bake test. Eventually, you can do another gluten mass test with a sample of the Papa Gino's dough but using the in-situ gluten mass test method (in a bowl with a fixed amount of water). As part of the same test, you would also do the oil test. These tests are described in some of the posts I referenced earlier in this thread.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #127 on: April 26, 2012, 04:06:17 PM »
Jamie, you've got, what I believe, is the best pizza flour on the planet.  Why are you messing around with gluten mass tests? Make some friggin pizza already!  ;D

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #128 on: April 26, 2012, 10:39:39 PM »
Tell you the truth scott, ive actually get this been sick of pizza this week :o. So i wanted to do some science! They say the average american eats 40 slices of pizza a year I eat that in like 10 days gotta take a break for a little ;D
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #129 on: April 26, 2012, 11:44:35 PM »
 ;D

Let me tell, you, Jamie, you might be tired of pizza, but, if you get the hydration and fermentation right on the Spring King, you have the potential to make a pizza you will never tire of. It's that good.

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2012, 12:53:03 AM »
;D

Let me tell, you, Jamie, you might be tired of pizza, but, if you get the hydration and fermentation right on the Spring King, you have the potential to make a pizza you will never tire of. It's that good.

Scott, I hope I like this pizza as much as you do when I make m first pizza with this flour :). However that would create a problem although a good one if there is such a a thing. The supplier that I was leaning towards using someday (cara donna) doesn't carry this flour so Id have to switch suppliers to reinhardt bc they're the only ones to have this flour in my area. What makes it so special?

Peter,
I did the gluten mass test on the PG dough, I don't know if this is good news or conflicting news.
I took 255g of dough then kneaded it under a stream of water for 15 minutes the water was running clear I squeezed the as much water as I could out of it and let it rest on a paper towel for a minute then weighed it.   It came in at 73.8g.

Ill do another test on the Spring king tomorrow to see if my results from today are in the ballpark in comparison to earlier todays results.
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2012, 12:57:56 AM »
What makes it so special?

I can't say it's inherently superior to other 12.7%ish protein bromated flours (such as Full Strength), but, from my time using it, it's the perfect storm of reliable milling, an ideal amount of protein for most pizzas, and the magic of bromate.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #132 on: April 27, 2012, 09:15:35 AM »
Peter,
I did the gluten mass test on the PG dough, I don't know if this is good news or conflicting news.
I took 255g of dough then kneaded it under a stream of water for 15 minutes the water was running clear I squeezed the as much water as I could out of it and let it rest on a paper towel for a minute then weighed it.   It came in at 73.8g.

Ill do another test on the Spring king tomorrow to see if my results from today are in the ballpark in comparison to earlier todays results.

Jamie,

For now, I am comfortable with both gluten mass values you have come up with--the one for the approximately 9-ounce dough ball made only from the Spring King flour and water and the approximately 9-ounce dough ball that you purchased from Papa Gino's and made with flour, water, salt, yeast and oil. As far as I am concerned, the more data we have on the gluten for the Spring King flour and real PG doughs the better we will be able to zero in on the actual value (by averaging the multiple samples). To get more accurate values, one would have to use a piece of sophisticated laboratory equipment such as a Glutomatic (for details, see http://www.granotec.com.br/arquivos/Sistema_Glutomatic.pdf). But even with that equipment, the instructions suggest using two samples and using the mean of the two samples. In some cases, a third sample might be required, in which case an average of the three samples is taken. Since we are operating in a nonscientific setting (e.g., the home), more samples is the best we can do to get an approximation of what a Glutomatic machine produces.

If Papa Gino's is still using the Spring King flour, that flour is considered a strong flour. You can see some of the specs for that flour at http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/spring_king_spring_patent.html. Those specs, along with the gluten mass values you derived from your tests, tentatively suggest a flour that is between a bread flour and what we typically call a high-gluten flour. However, as I pointed out in Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1881.msg28897/topicseen.html#msg28897, a flour with a protein content of the Spring King flour (nominally 13.2%) is sometimes called a "medium high gluten" flour. The gluten mass values you derived would seem to fit the medium high gluten description. That aside, the best that the raw gluten mass values can tell us is the type of flour. It can't tell us the brand of flour. Also, different flours with the same or similar protein contents can have different amounts of gluten. You can see that phenomenon in the Master list of gluten mass values that I mentioned earlier.

Where the gluten mass values will be most useful is after you have conducted the hydration bake test. The results of that test should help us dial in the hydration of the PG dough and also dial in values for the flour, yeast and salt. Once the oil test is conducted, and assuming it is successful, that should help us dial in a value for the oil. As you may know, Papa Gino's operates on a commissary model and delivers fresh dough balls to most of its stores within its delivery area on a twice-a-week basis (and on a three day cycle for some stores). Most of the PG stores are in Massachusetts but there are 16 stores in New Hampshire and a fair number of stores in Rhode Island. There are only a handful of stores in Connecticut and only one store in Maine, so I believe that those stores make their dough in-store. Can you tell me which NH store you purchase your PG dough from and do you know whether it is delivered from the PG commissary? The answer to the latter question will dictate the amount of yeast used in the dough at the particular PG store you visit. If it is delivered dough, then the yeast (I assume IDY) will be on the low side since the dough has to last up to, say, 3-5 days, or until the next delivery. As for the salt, I am guessing around 2% based on the PG pizzas I have purchased in the past. Since you are a professional and may have an idea as to salt levels from your work, do you have a feel for the salt level used by PG? For example, are the PG crusts saltier than the crusts where you work?

If you think of it, you might also want to weigh the future PG dough balls that you purchase. The first PG dough was 466 grams but commissary produced dough balls can vary on one side or the other by a a quarter- or half-ounce. For our purposes, we might use the average of the weights of the PG dough balls.

Are you having fun?

Peter
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 09:27:48 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #133 on: April 27, 2012, 01:52:23 PM »
Peter,
 
  I did a hydration bake test following the instructions you gave me. I used an exactly 10g sample of PG dough stretched in the lid of some spaghetti sauce. Iused the toaster oven. about 200-220f. it weighed 19.5g including the lid. I poked some holes in it and weighed it every hour for 4 hours. The weight stayed the same from hour 3 to 4 so I was confident it stabilized it was 15.4 and holding.
 I have a second hydration bake test going right now. Ill post those results later.
 
 I also did a oil test following the directions you posted. I took exactly 5oz PG dough sample and 2 cups of warm water kneaded it for 15 minutes in the water. After 15 minutes I rinsed the left over gluten with about an ounce of clean water back over the bowl of water(to get of any starch or oil that was stuck in the gluten mass) I poured the water into a plastic cup. I let it settle until all the starch was at the bottom. Its in the freezer right now. Ill post later on that.
 I weighed the left over gluten from the oil test it weighed 36.5g.


 Yes Im having fun I tried explaining the reason why I'm buying PG dough to a coworker he looked at me like Im crazy :-D. I buy fom the Papa Ginos on Hooksett rd in manchester nh. The store is ran by mostly teenagers so I don't think they make dough in house but Ill ask next time. Salt level I would guess 2.25% very flavorful.

 I did another gluten mass test with the spring king this time exactly 9oz of dough was used followed the same method as the first time. The gluten weighed 75.5g.


Jamie


Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2012, 12:12:08 AM »
I completed the oil test tonight, I used a butter knife to get the oil off the top. When I got as much as I could which was 3.8g.
A thought came into my head. there was still on oily film on the top of the ice block. My girlfriend has these oil absorbing sheets. So I wiped the surface with one and weighed it it was .5g so I don't know if that could be considered too.

my 2nd hydration test was 15.4g again.
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #135 on: April 28, 2012, 07:46:59 AM »
Jamie,

Thank you for the additional test data.

The gluten mass value for the latest test with the 9-ounce Spring King dough ball, 75.5 grams, is in line with the extrapolated value of 75.64 grams from the first test using the 9-ounce Spring King dough ball. The average of the two values is 75.57 grams.

I'd like some clarification on the results of the two hydration bake tests. Here is my summary of the numbers for the first of the two hydration tests you reported (in Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15978.msg184667.html#msg184667):

1. Starting Papa Gino's dough sample = 10 grams
2. The weight of the lid and the dough skin before baking = 19.5 grams; therefore, the lid weighed 19.5-10 = 9.5 grams
3. The weight of the lid and the dough skin after baking = 15.4 grams; therefore, the weight of the baked skin was 15.4-9.5 = 5.9 grams
4. The weight of the water lost during baking = 10-5.9 = 4.1 grams, or 4.1/10 = 41%

If the above summary is correct, can you describe in detail, preferably step by step, how you prepared the 10-gram piece of dough and baked and weighed it?

Also, when you extracted the 0.5 grams extra of oil, was that weight of the oil only or the weight of the oil plus the absorbing sheet?

In the meantime, I will play around with the numbers to see what they suggest.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:48:37 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #136 on: April 28, 2012, 08:36:21 AM »
Peter,

For the hydration bake test, here is what I did both times, I cut an exactly 10g piece of dough from the PG dough. I flattened it between 2 pieces of saran wrap. I put it in the lid(which weighed 9.5g) stretched it the rest of the way. I cooked it in the toaster oven.
 The baked skin weighed 5.9g. for a loss of 41%

I weighed the oil absorbing sheet before I used it. It didn't register on the scale at all. after wiping the surface it was .5g in weight
Jamie

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #137 on: April 28, 2012, 08:45:58 AM »
I just weighed the oil absorbing sheet again and still no reaction from the scale. I placed 3 sheets on the scale and it registered at .3g so 1 sheet is probably less than but close to .1g
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #138 on: April 28, 2012, 09:32:10 AM »
Jamie,

The reason why I asked you about the methods you used is because the 41% water loss number is suspect. A dough that has a 41% water loss will be stiff and on the fairly dense side. In fact, the Mellow Muchroom doughs that Norma and I have been working with--both using a real sample of an MM dough and clone versions--have a roughly 40% water loss. More recently, Norma and I did tests on a defrosted Pepe's dough, which is much more likely to be like a Papa Gino's dough, and calculated a water loss of 45.1%. You can read about the results of the Pepe's hydration bake test at Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171520.html#msg171520. That test, along with the gluten mass test, eventually led to the Pepe's clone dough formulation at Reply 69 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg172097.html#msg172097. That formulation essentially nailed the Pepe's dough formulation.

I think why your 41% number does not work is because you omitted a couple of steps: baking the 10-gram skin at an elevated temperature for a few minutes to cause the flattened skin to puff up, and splitting the puffed up skin into two halves before continuing the bake. My recollection is that I used a small piece of aluminum foil to hold the two halves while they continued to bake (I also let the oven cool down from the elevated temperature to about 212 degrees F before continuing the bake). In my case, it took anywhere from about 6 to 12 hours to complete the hydration bake tests, and during that time I periodically checked my toaster oven temperature with an infrared thermometer to be sure that the temperature was in the roughly 200-220 degrees F range, making slight adjustments as needed. Also, when I periodically weighed the two halves, I let them cool down a bit before weighing because I found that my small digital scale behaved erratically when I tried to weigh the halves while they were hot. The same thing would happen, but with even greater inaccuracy, if I tried to weigh the metal lid while hot. I suspect that the scale's electronics did not like hot things.

By omitting the steps mentioned above, I suspect that there was still some moisture trapped in the skin that could not escape. If that moisture is evaporated, I would expect the final weight of the two halves to be lower than what you got.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #139 on: April 28, 2012, 11:20:52 AM »
I will redo the hydration test tonight. I thought it seemed off bc the hydration definitly isnt 55% its higher.

What are your thoughts on the oil?
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #140 on: April 28, 2012, 12:18:11 PM »
What are your thoughts on the oil?

Jamie,

Preliminarily, I would say that there is more oil in the Papa Gino's dough than in the test doughs that I made based on the Mellow Mushroom clone doughs, simply from the relative numbers from your oil test on a 5-ounce sample of the PG dough and the oil tests that I conducted for 5-ounce dough balls. It would have been nice if Norma could have done an oil test on the real MM dough in her possession but she has only a small amount of that dough left and she has been nursing it to keep as a benchmark for dough color comparison purposes with our MM clone doughs (since the MM dough contains molasses). Unlike the Papa Gino's you frequent, most MM stores will not sell dough balls. The Pepe's dough does not contain any oil (except for a trace amount in the flour) so there was no need to conduct an oil test for that dough.

I won't be able to estimate a baker's percent for the oil in the PG dough until I have the water percent for the PG dough after you have repeated the hydration bake test. Also, the oil quantity you mentioned may include small amounts of yeast and salt and maybe even some components of the flour itself. There may be some water in with the oil also, which is why I subjected the oil mixtures in my tests to bakes to help drive off any water in the oil mixtures. Even that process isn't perfect because oil in a heated state has a consistency and appearance like water.

If there is, in fact, a fair amount of oil in the PG dough, it will contribute to the "wetness" of the dough and its "effective" hydration. If true, that would help explain why you think the PG dough has a high hydration. It's even possible that the yellow tinge to the PG dough that you mentioned early on is due to the oil. Of course, it might also be due to the cornmeal that ends up on the PG dough balls.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:43:35 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2012, 10:39:35 AM »
I wondered recently how I could have completely missed the fact that Papa Gino's is using oil (soybean oil) in its dough. So, to find the answer, I went back and re-read a good part of this thread. I also hunted down my folder on the earlier Papa Gino's reverse engineering and cloning project, where I found a copy of the PG Nutrition Fact that existed as of the time I did all my work on the project.

First, as noted at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70557.html#msg70557, at that time Papa Gino's ingredients list for its pizza dough ("shell") did not include any oil. To see if the oil was inadvertently omitted from the PG ingredients list for the dough, I compared the PG Nutrition Facts that existed for a basic large cheese pizza (the simplest pizza to analyze) when I first got involved with the PG project with the PG Nutrition Facts that now exist for a basic large cheese pizza at the PG website at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=pizza. A comparison of the two sets of Nutrition Facts shows that the serving size (113 grams) remains the same (which means that they didn't change the pizza weight) but there are numerous changes in the current PG Nutrition Facts. Many of the changes, such as in Fat Calories, Total Fat and Saturated Fat, strongly suggest the addition of oil to the dough. However, other changes, such as for Cholesterol content and Sodium content, suggest possible changes in the cheese blend and, in the case of the Sodium, an increase in the amount of salt used in the dough. At this point, it is hard to say whether I will be able to determine the amount of soybean oil used in the PG dough solely from the PG Nutrition Facts because all of the cheeses used in the PG cheese blend and also the soybean oil have similar fat components (Total Fat and Saturated Fat). That makes separating out the Total Fat and Saturated Fat for the soybean oil more difficult.

The other significant thing that I took away from my re-reading of the earlier posts in this thread is that the PG Nutrition Facts are based on unbaked pizzas. This was previously covered in this thread but it was a good reminder for me. That should make it a bit easier to determine how much cheese blend and sauce might be used along with what we know about the weight of a typical PG dough ball--about 16.5 ounces for a 14" pizza. Previously, I was told by a PG worker that the sauce quantity used at the time for a large (14") pepperoni pizza was 6 ounces. Since PG workers use volume measurements, that suggests 6 ounces by volume, not by weight. I don't know what size portioning cups PG uses for measuring out the cheese, but I was told that two such measures were used for a large pepperoni pizza.

There is also no way of knowing for sure at this point whether PG has changed flours. However, the components of the current PG Nutrition Facts that relate to flour, such as Carbohydrates, Dietary Fiber and Protein, do not suggest a change in the profile of the flour that they are now using. That is, if PG is using a different flour, the flour has the same profile as the Spring King flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 03:20:58 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2012, 02:13:42 PM »
Peter,

I bought a dough ball from PG monday night around 10:00pm. I performed the bake test again this time like this:

- 10.0g dough fitted into pasta sauce lid

- 500 degrees for 2 minutes. Dough puffed up

- slit the dough

- Lowered oven temp before returning dough to the oven 220 degrees

- Left the oven on all night until 10:00am next day

- weight was again 5.9g

Im doing 2 tests right now. Another bake test only this time I sliced the skin after puffing up into 2 equal pieces ( They are like 2 silver dollars like pancakes) I unrolled the edges that curled up thinking maybe some moisture is caught in the edges.
The second test is I wanted to see how long it would take for the dough to get blown out see if we could figure out yeast quantity maybe.

also if this bake test doesn't offer any help is there another way? for some reason I thought you could measure how high the dough puffed up when baked and that could tell you something about hydration don't know where or why that thought came in my head.

I read your posts in the Papa Ginos thread and you mentioned no oil in the dough, I looked and saw oil in the pizza shell ingredients and thought it was odd that it was overlooked maybe the dough formula has changed in the recent years.

I read on wikipedia that soybean oil is considered to be a drying oil. is this hindering my bake test results?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 02:36:47 PM by Kostakis1985 »
Jamie

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2012, 02:23:58 PM »
I asked for the dough with no cornmeal on it and weighed it before any tests were done to it. Its exactly 16oz

They say there pizza is only 14 inches but they stretch it out bigger id say about 15-16 inches heres a pic I just took.

Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2012, 03:27:40 PM »
Jamie,

Based on your most recent numbers, I am beginning to think that your numbers from the hydration bake test may be correct after all, although they would suggest a dough that is lower in hydration than we have been thinking. However, the "effective" hydration that takes the oil into account would be higher than the stated formula hydration and would make the dough seem more highly hydrated. I just recently discovered that Papa Gino's dough contains soybean oil, so I haven't had a chance to study the two sets of PG Nutrition Facts in detail and to do some calculations to see if the calculations support the amount of soybean oil that you got from the oil test.

It is interesting to see the photo of the dough ball that you posted. You had mentioned earlier that previous PG dough balls had black spots, and the latest dough ball seems to have those black spots also. That is something with which I have had a fair amount of experience, and usually it was for a long fermented dough. You can see an aggravated example of this in Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. In that case, the dough was a bit over 12 days old. What often happens with long fermented doughs is that enzymes in the flour, as well as acids, attack the gluten structure and weaken it, causing the dough to spread and feel wetter than normal. I have read about dough balls with spotting after only a few days but in my experience it takes longer than that. Have you purchased any dough balls from Papa Gino's without the black spots? I suspect that Papa Gino's uses a small amount of yeast in their doughs and if that is true their dough balls perhaps can last up to eight days. If the dough balls you have been getting are older dough balls, they may have fermented to the point where the dough balls look and feel soft, leading you to conclude that the dough has a high nominal hydration.

I am unaware of any tests that can be conducted to determine the amount of yeast used in a dough. In PG's case, the amount of yeast in a single dough ball is likely to be very small. Otherwise, the dough might not make it out to 3-5 days or more, or until new deliveries arrive. It would also make sense that the hydration of the dough, both nominal and effective, be on the low side because high hydration doughs ferment faster than lower hydration doughs and you don't want the dough balls to ferment so fast that they don't make it out to several days. The higher amount of salt will slow down the fermentation process but it can't be so high as to make the finished crust so salty as to be unpalatable.

Pending the results of your remaining tests that are in progress, I will play around with the numbers to see what I can make of them.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2012, 03:53:08 PM »
Jamie,

If you would like to learn more about the black spots that can appear in a dough, you might want to take a look at this thread and the links contained therein: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032. In re-reading the materials myself this afternoon, I wondered whether Papa Gino's may be using active dry yeast (ADY) in dry, nonrehydated form. That is a method that can extend the fermentation of a dough for many days. I described such a method in respect of a Papa John's clone dough, at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »
Jamie,

I know it probably wonít help in this thread, but if you want to see what a MM dough ball looked like in terms of hydration when Chicago Bob sent it to me for testing, it can be seen in the different pictures at Reply 1016 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg167954.html#msg167954

If you also are interested in when I did some hydration tests on the MM dough ball the pictures are at 1052 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168154.html#msg168154 You can see what Peter posted at Reply 1055 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168160.html#msg168160 about the hydration test.  I ran another hydration bake test at Reply 1060 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168194.html#msg168194 and you can also see the those numbers showed the hydration was about 50%. 

The reason I am posting is just to show you how wet or hydrated the MM dough ball looked when Chicago Bob sent it to me.  After the hydration test and Peter looking at the Nutritional Facts he figured out how much oil was in a MM dough ball.  Chicago Bob also did a hydration test on a MM dough ball.  I would have thought when Chicago Bob sent me the dough ball it would have been a more hydrated dough ball because it appeared so wet, but it took awhile for  the MM dough ball to get to me.  The dough balls Chicago Bob sent me didnít have any specks in the dough but that could have been because the dough balls contained other ingredients, such as molasses.  I was at a MM location in DC and saw what their dough balls looked like and they didnít look hydrated as much as when Chicago Bob sent me the dough balls.  I guess dough balls do become slack or wet looking after fermenting for a number of days.

Norma

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2012, 10:45:53 PM »
Norma,

 Wow I would have guessed that dough was a very hydrated dough. Thanks for the comparison. :)

 Also I wanted to ask about the molasses in the dough does it add a nice color to a finished crust? does it add a nice taste I just bought a jar  of it to try in a dough formula.

Peter,

  I just wanted to tell you a few things, for some reason I'm pretty sure its active dry. I think I read it somewhere and on Papa Ginos walls in the restaurant they are decorated with murals of the country side and recipes that fade into other pictures and it says active dry yeast in one of them don't know if it means something though.

My last hydration test was 5.9g again. I just read about the using dry ADY and that makes a sense. These dough balls don't seem to be rising just sort of hanging out waiting to be used.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 11:02:41 PM by Kostakis1985 »
Jamie

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2012, 01:13:12 AM »
Hey guys,  good work on the reverse engineering.  It got me to thinking,  Peter,  I think you could create a spreadsheet using nutritional information,  known variables,  flour characteristics thickness factors etc,  that could easily help people reproduce the pizza they are looking for.  Just a thought,  but creating it may be the ultimate challenge for you.  I for one think you could do it!  Just a thought.  -marc

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #149 on: May 03, 2012, 07:21:54 AM »
Norma,

Also I wanted to ask about the molasses in the dough does it add a nice color to a finished crust? does it add a nice taste I just bought a jar  of it to try in a dough formula.


Jamie,

I did play around a little with molasses in some doughs, other than the MM pizzas.  One such pizza that was made with some molasses is posted at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17128.msg167973.html#msg167973 I want to play around with molasses in pizza doughs more in the future when I find time.  I donít want to get your thread off-topic, but since you asked about molasses in pizza dough, thought I would give you a link.  I think molasses does give moisture and a nice taste to the finished crusts of pizzas.  I believe in the MM thread the molasses did give the crust a nice color and flavor.

Norma