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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #150 on: May 03, 2012, 11:24:08 AM »
Peter,

I just wanted to tell you a few things, for some reason I'm pretty sure its active dry. I think I read it somewhere and on Papa Ginos walls in the restaurant they are decorated with murals of the country side and recipes that fade into other pictures and it says active dry yeast in one of them don't know if it means something though.

My last hydration test was 5.9g again. I just read about the using dry ADY and that makes a sense. These dough balls don't seem to be rising just sort of hanging out waiting to be used.

Jamie,

Thanks for the latest number from the most recent hydration bake test. I spent several hours yesterday poring over the Papa Gino's Nutrition Facts and doing a lot of number crunching scenarios in an attempt to make sense of all of the numbers we now have on this project. What complicates matters is the cheese blend that Papa Gino's is using. It is a blend of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, aged cheddar cheese and Romano cheese (in descending order of use, by weight), with oregano added. The few times that I have had Papa Gino's pizzas I could not detect the cheddar cheese or the Romano cheese, although the oregano was clearly detectable. So, based on those experiences, and also looking at the fat, sodium and cholesterol numbers in the PG Nutrition Facts, it would seem that the PG cheese blend is mostly mozzarella cheese. To me, that scenario is plausible because I also did not detect the telltale sign of the use of a lot of cheddar cheese, which is the release of a lot of oil onto the pizza.

Further to the above, some time ago, I learned that one of the foodservice companies that Papa Gino's uses is Agar. As you can see from the announcement at http://www.agarsupply.com/pdf/Papa%20Ginos%20-Agar%20Final.pdf, Agar renewed its contract with Papa Gino's in a six-year deal. I was hoping to find an existing blend of cheeses such as Papa Gino's uses, in order to get a better idea as to the cheese ratios, but could not find anything to review. So, PG may be using a customized blend, possibly handled by Agar. I realize that you may not care about the PG cheese blend and really only care about the PG dough, but the PG Nutrition Facts are for complete pizzas, not just dough. So, all of the numbers are bunched together based on the their compliance with FDA rules and regulations.

If you ever have a chance, you might try to find out how much cheese blend is used by your local Papa Gino's for a basic cheese pizza. As previously noted, I was once told that it was two portioning cups worth but the worker did not know the size of the portioning cup. The sauce was 6 ounces (fluid ounces). If a dough ball for a 14" pizza (even if the skin is actually larger as you mentioned) weighs 16 ounces, and a 14" unbaked cheese pizza weighs around 32 ounces (based on the PG Nutrition Facts), and if the sauce comes to 6 fluid ounces (which might translate to a bit less than 6 ounces on a weight basis), then that would mean that the amount of the PG cheese blend would be around 10 ounces. In actuality, that number is likely to be a bit less once the cornmeal is taken into account.

As for the ADY, scott r once mentioned (in the Papa Gino's recipe thread) that at one time all of the PG stores made their dough in-store. That could account for what you mentioned about ADY appearing in a faded recipe on the wall of a PG store.

Finally, I want to report that I have some additional information to bring to your attention as a result of some further Papa Gino's research I conducted recently. I will reserve that for another post today. In the meantime, fasten your seatbelt, Jamie.

Peter


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #151 on: May 03, 2012, 02:26:49 PM »
Jamie,

This is to follow up on my last post in which I mentioned that I uncovered more information from further research on Papa Gino’s.

One of the best tricks I have learned when researching a company whose pizzas I am trying to reverse engineer and clone is to look for documents that the company is required to provide to schools where the pizzas are to be served. I did this today and found two interesting documents on two Papa Gino’s pizzas sold to schools, one for an extra-large cheese pizza and a second document for an extra-large pepperoni pizza. In both cases, there are detailed ingredients lists for the pizzas. I have provided the related links below, along with the ingredients lists from the documents.

http://sharepoint.naschools.net/highschool/foodservice/Food%20Service%20Important%20Documents/Papa%20Gino%20Elementary%20Nutritionals%20per%20slice.pdf

Papa Gino’s School Lunch - XL Cheese Pizza with 8 oz cheese
November 2010

INGREDIENTS: Flour, indust, white, 13% prot, bleached, enrich, Pizza Sauce {tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid}, Cheese Blend{Mozzarella cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enyzymes), Aged cheddar cheese(pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enzymes), romano cheese (sheeps milk, rennet, salt),oregano, natural flavors, salt, sodium citrate, sodium propionate}, Water, YellowCornmeal, Salt, Soybean Oil, Bakers Yeast.
Allergen: Wheat, Dairy, Soy


http://sharepoint.naschools.net/highschool/foodservice/Food%20Service%20Important%20Documents/Papa%20Gino%20Secondary%20Nutritionals%20per%20slice.doc

Papa Gino’s School Lunch - XL Pepperoni Pizza with 16 oz cheese
December 2010

INGREDIENTS: Flour, indust, white, 13% prot, bleached, enrich, Pizza Sauce {tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid}, Cheese Blend {Mozzarella cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enyzymes), Aged cheddar cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enzymes), romano cheese (sheeps milk, rennet, salt), oregano, natural flavors, salt, sodium citrate, sodium propionate}, Water, Pepperoni Pork, beef, natural flavorings, contains 2% or less of water, dextrose, lactic acid starter culture, oleoresin of paprika, dehydrated garlic, sodium nitrate, bha, bht, citric acid, Yellow Cornmeal, Salt, Soybean Oil, Bakers Yeast.
Allergen: Wheat, Dairy, Soy


There are several things to take away from the above ingredients lists:

First, the protein content of the flour is given as 13%. Unless Papa Gino’s has changed flours, I believe that the 13% figure is within the +/- 0.3% variation of the Spring King flour. Also, with the level of detail given for the flour, I think we can safely rule out the use of semolina.

Second, the amount of the cheese blend in each case is more, by weight, than the amount of water. As will be noted from the headings above, in one case the pizza has 8 ounces of the cheese blend and the other has 16 ounces of the cheese blend. So, for an extra-large cheese pizza, there must be less than 8 ounces of water.

Third, there is less soybean oil by weight than the amount of salt. So, if we assume 2.25% salt, there must be less than 2.25% soybean oil. Also, since cornmeal (yellow cornmeal) is listed as one of the ingredients, its weight should be more than 2.25%.

Finally, the total weights of the two pizzas, based on the Nutrition Facts given in the two referenced documents, do not comport with the weights given for extra-large cheese and pepperoni pizzas at Papa Gino’s website at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=pizza. I believe that the differences are because of the different amounts of cheese blends used for the two pizzas. It is quite possible, for example, that the school versions of PG pizzas can be different than the store versions. As you may already know, a PG extra-large pizza is 17” (I called three Papa Gino’s stores, one in MA and two in NH, and they all said 17”). That size pizza is usually cut into 8 slices. As I understand it, Papa Gino’s sells three sizes of pizzas: 10” (small), 14” (large) and 17” (extra-large).

Because we now have a better idea as to the pecking order of ingredients and some additional numbers, the above information should be a good guide to coming up with a test dough formulation. However, there is still some missing information. For example, is the 17” pizza made by simply stretching out the dough skin for the 14” pizza to 17” or is there a separate size dough ball for the 17” pizza size, and is it proportional to the other dough ball weights (e.g., the dough weight per square inch is the same for all size pizzas)? Also, is the cheese blend distributed proportionately over all pizza sizes (e.g., the amount of cheese blend per square inch is the same for all size pizzas)? I would expect that coming up with a dough formulation for the 17” size will be a precursor to coming up with a dough formulation for the 14” size.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #152 on: May 03, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »
Peter,  I think you could create a spreadsheet using nutritional information,  known variables,  flour characteristics, thickness factors etc,  that could easily help people reproduce the pizza they are looking for.  Just a thought,  but creating it may be the ultimate challenge for you.  I for one think you could do it!  Just a thought.  -marc

Marc,

Not long ago, another member privately shared some work that he had done somewhat along the lines you mention but using a specialized programming language instead of a spreadsheet format. His thinking was that maybe his tools could be supported on the forum. He asked me for my opinion, which I gave. One of the points that I mentioned is that people want simplicity and ease of use of any tools that relate to dough formulations. They are rarely versed in highly technical matters and they are likely to have little patience trying to figure out all of the intricacies of tools that are too elaborate. In that vein, I recalled the dough calculating tools that Mike (Boy Hits Car) designed. We started with the Lehmann dough calculating tool. That was a simple tool and when that seemed to work, we gradually expanded that effort to more complicated tools for deep-dish, natural preferments and a much wider selection of ingredients that were commonly used in pizza doughs. We beta tested the tools with several of our members who were most versed in the areas in which the tools would be used. To this day, I would say that the Lehmann dough calculating tool--the simplest and most basic of all of the dough calculating tools--has been the tool that has been most used by our members.

On the matter of nutritional information, for the past few years I have spent more time than I would like to admit studying and trying to understand Nutrition Facts. I actually have a love-hate relationship with Nutrition Facts. I love them when they support or confirm whatever else I have done and hate them when they do not. Nutrition Facts are an arcane and complex area that requires a level of training and understanding that few people are able to achieve. In fact, in practice just about all Nutrition Facts are arrived at using specialized software, databases and, in many cases, laboratory testing using specialized equipment that none of us would have in a home setting. There are so many ingredients and so many forms and so many sources and so many applicable FDA rules and regulations that I wouldn't know where to begin to incorporate nutritional information into any tool. And I honestly don't think that I could ever teach anyone how to reproduce someone else's pizza. Each case is different, and I approach them differently based on all of the information at hand and my own experiments and those of other members.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #153 on: May 03, 2012, 11:00:56 PM »
Jamie,

I know it probably won’t help in this thread, but if you want to see what a MM dough ball looked like in terms of hydration when Chicago Bob sent it to me for testing, it can be seen in the different pictures at Reply 1016 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg167954.html#msg167954

If you also are interested in when I did some hydration tests on the MM dough ball the pictures are at 1052 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168154.html#msg168154 You can see what Peter posted at Reply 1055 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168160.html#msg168160 about the hydration test.  I ran another hydration bake test at Reply 1060 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168194.html#msg168194 and you can also see the those numbers showed the hydration was about 50%. 

The reason I am posting is just to show you how wet or hydrated the MM dough ball looked when Chicago Bob sent it to me.  After the hydration test and Peter looking at the Nutritional Facts he figured out how much oil was in a MM dough ball.  Chicago Bob also did a hydration test on a MM dough ball.  I would have thought when Chicago Bob sent me the dough ball it would have been a more hydrated dough ball because it appeared so wet, but it took awhile for  the MM dough ball to get to me.  The dough balls Chicago Bob sent me didn’t have any specks in the dough but that could have been because the dough balls contained other ingredients, such as molasses.  I was at a MM location in DC and saw what their dough balls looked like and they didn’t look hydrated as much as when Chicago Bob sent me the dough balls.  I guess dough balls do become slack or wet looking after fermenting for a number of days.

Norma
   Yes Norma you are correct that after a few days those MM dough balls looked very slack and wet....so much so that I requested Peter for a definition of what a "blown" dough ball looks likeand as we know ...they were still very much still usable.

Bob
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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2012, 12:01:05 AM »
Peter,

All I can say is WOW!!. I mean what a great idea looking at the school info.

I have a few questions/hunches

-The crust had a very slight sweetness to the it and when I did the hydration bake test I tasted the baked dough. I thought about what it tasted like it was on the tip of my tongue then I realized it tasted like corn flakes cereal. Do you think cornmeal is part of the dough formula? does that sound ridiculous? or is that what you were trying to convey?

-Im not sure what you are trying to tell me about the water being less than the cheese amount so could you clarify that.

Cant wait to try some dough formulas!

I will try to find out how info on the cheese blend maybe its mixed in house. ill find out how much cheese is used and if they use a different dough ball size for the x-large pizza.
It might be difficult because Im pretty sure the teenagers that work there have no clue about the products they use and we probably know more info on the pizza they sell than they do :)
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #155 on: May 04, 2012, 08:07:43 AM »
Jamie,

It is hard to say whether Papa Gino's is using cornmeal in the dough as opposed to its use on the bench. At one time, Domino's used to list cornmeal in its hand tossed dough ingredients list but it was placed last in the list with the statement "(used in preparation)". In a similar fashion, sometimes a pizza operator might put oil in the ingredients list when the oil was used in the pan rather than in the dough itself (an example of this can be seen for the Jet's dough formulation set forth at page 35 of another school document at http://www.northville.k12.mi.us/district/foodservice/pdfs/MSIngred.pdf). Since Papa Gino's does not list cornmeal in the pizza "shell" ingredients list at its website, I would say that the cornmeal is used only on the bench. I don't know if the Manchester Papa Gino's uses the mold to form the skins but when such a mold is used, both sides of the skin end up with cornmeal pressed into it. Since you previously mentioned that a purchased PG dough ball for the 14" size weighs 16 ounces without the cornmeal and 16.44 ounces with it, the difference of 0.44 ounces sounds about right and would be in the right spot in the ingredients list I posted in my earlier reply.

With respect to the significance of the amount of Cheese Blend in relation to the amount of water, if we simplify the ingredients list for the extra-large cheese pizza, it looks like this:

Flour
Pizza Sauce
Cheese Blend (this is 8 ounces by weight)
Water
Yellow Cornmeal
Salt
Soybean Oil
Bakers Yeast

If Papa Gino's listed the above ingredients correctly, then the ingredients are rank ordered by weight. And since the Cheese Blend is higher in the list than the Water, that means that there is more Cheese Blend by weight than Water. So, for the 17" pizza size, there should be less than 8 ounces of Water. That is why I would like to know the weight of the dough ball that PG uses to make the 17" size. Some pizza operators are more technical and scientific than others and use dough ball weights that will produce the same crust thickness (with the same thickness factor) no matter the pizza size but others use dough balls that produce somewhat different crust thicknesses across the entire pizza line. Jet's, for example, uses the former method but Mellow Mushroom uses the latter, whether by design or some other logic. If you are able to purchase a PG dough ball for the 17" size, preferably without the cornmeal, and weigh it, that would tell us which method PG uses. Sometimes pizza operators want round numbers for their dough ball weights, not oddball numbers with fractions. In PG's case, there will unavoidably be variations in dough ball weights because of their commissary dough divider/rounding equipment.

I didn't mention it before, but the ingredients list for the school cheese pizza shows that there is more Pizza Sauce by weight than Cheese Blend. If we assume that Papa Gino's spreads the Pizza Sauce the same way across the 17" size as the 14" size, then a calculated amount of Pizza Sauce for the 17" size based on using 6 fluid ounces of Pizza Sauce for a 14" pizza would be [(6/(7 x 7) x (8.5 x 8.5)] = 8.85 fluid ounces. PG workers use volume measurements rather than weights but 8.85 fluid ounces of Pizza Sauce will convert to a weight that is close to 8.85 ounces. That is more than the 8 ounces of Cheese Blend so it is in the right order in the ingredients list.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2012, 08:57:13 AM »
Jamie,

It looks like I missed your question about the soybean oil when you edited your post to note the drying qualities of soybean oil as discussed at wikipedia, as follows;

Soybean oil is a drying oil, which means that it will slowly harden upon exposure to air, forming a flexible, transparent, and waterproof solid.

I don't think hardening of the oil from your oil test would be a matter to worry about. Seeing where the soybean oil is in the ingredients lists I posted yesterday, it looks like your oil "mass" might have had some water mixed in with it. That is something that I also seemed to have experienced when I did an oil test using a lot of oil. As I mentioned previously, once soybean oil is heated, it takes on the consistency and appearance of water, making it difficult to know how much of the liquid is oil and how much is water. In retrospect, I think if I were to repeat the oil experiment, I would try refreezing the oil mass to see if the water can be separated out of it. I might add that I never had very high hopes for the oil test in terms of accuracy. My objective was only to see if I got a lot of oil or only a small amount--enough to get me into the ballpark. From there, I would look at other things, like Nutrition Facts and ingredients lists.

Speaking of Nutrition Facts, it appears that Papa Gino's may have changed their Cheese Blend because of the increase in the Cholesterol quantity in the most recent PG Nutrition Facts. It's not a big deal and, in fact, it might only represent the results of the latest tests on their pizzas for purposes of the latest version of the PG Nutrition Facts. I think it is also clear that there is a fair amount of salt in the PG pizzas. There is salt in all of the cheeses that comprise the Cheese Blend, and also in the Pizza Sauce and in the dough. If pepperoni is added, there would also be a fair amount of salt from that source. It will be interesting to see if you are able to identify the source of the Cheese Blend. I personally believe that it is bagged cheeses, not cheeses that are shredded in the PG stores. Once you go to a commissary model, you want to streamline everything as much as possible, even the preparation of veggies if possible. It is possible, however, for the few PG stores that are not in the PG delivery range to do some in-store processing since they are likely to have mixers, like Hobart planetary mixers, that have attachments for shredding cheeses.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2012, 09:20:04 AM »
Peter,

I agree its probably bagged cheeses I was thinking that maybe they did something like 3bags mozzarella to 1 bag cheddar and 1lb romano. Now thinking about it its probably all blended for them as that would be the most efficient. I will find out about the dough ball weight later today and report back to the forum.

Last night I defrosted the oil test I had in my freezer and poured off the water, there was no cornmeal or semolina in the dough so you are right.

Another thing is on the documents for the schools is it says for a XL cheese pizza they use 8oz cheese, and for an XL pepperoni they use 16oz cheese. Do you think there is an error there because I know most operators including where I work if there are toppings on a pizza even if only 1 and especially more then 1 you cut back on the cheese. And if there is more than 2 toppings you cut back on the toppings as well.
What are your thoughts on that?
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #158 on: May 04, 2012, 10:00:22 AM »
Another thing is on the documents for the schools is it says for a XL cheese pizza they use 8oz cheese, and for an XL pepperoni they use 16oz cheese. Do you think there is an error there because I know most operators including where I work if there are toppings on a pizza even if only 1 and especially more then 1 you cut back on the cheese. And if there is more than 2 toppings you cut back on the toppings as well.
What are your thoughts on that?

Jamie,

I have never worked in the pizza (or other food) industry so I am not aware of how cheeses and toppings are handled quantitatively although I know that most places, and especially the chains, have charts and photos and the like at the work areas for the workers to use in assembling pizzas. However, in the case of schools, special rules might apply since school officials tend to be more sensitive about the nutritional aspects of the foods that they serve to children, especially fats and sugars and salt, all of which the government and food Nazis have been targeting for change. So, in the case of the school extra-large cheese pizza, it is possible that the school in question told Papa Gino's to use only 8 ounces of the Cheese Blend. It is even possible, I suppose, that Papa Gino's, knowing of such concerns, has several school versions of its extra-large pizzas that have different amounts of Cheese Blend from which the schools can select (and with Nutrition Facts also provided). But, this aside, if you assume that a 14" pizza uses 10 ounces of the Cheese Blend, and that the Cheese Blend is distributed on a 17" pizza in the same way as on a 14" pizza, the calculated weight of the Cheese Blend for the 17" pizza is [(10/(7 x 7) x (8.5 x 8.5)] = 14.75 ounces. That is pretty close to a pound of Cheese Blend. Papa Gino's perhaps actually weighs out the pound of cheese, whereas in its stores the Cheese Blend is free thrown (but first measured out in measuring cups by volume).

Peter
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 11:47:46 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #159 on: May 04, 2012, 10:35:42 AM »
In almost all cases of public school foodservice, the school district releases an annual or biannual bid which sets out in pretty fine detail the specifications of the products they want to buy. Food manufacturers bid their products that meet the given specs, and the best price wins. The contract for distribution of the food items is usually bid separately. Food manufacturer sales people spend a great deal of time working with the bureaucrats in the school districts in an attempt to influence how the individual specifications are written with a goal of getting a particular spec written so tight that they have the only product that meets the specs. For high volume items such as pizza, a manufacturer will often have a wide variety of items available to make this more difficult. There is also little coordination between districts - certainly not the larger districts, and as a result there is a large number of different products available.

The vast majority of school foodservice pizza is fully assembled. There is some amount of higher end product for special applications that is not, but it is the exception, not the rule.
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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #160 on: May 04, 2012, 11:08:42 PM »
peter,

After work tonight I went to PG and asked for an XL dough ball. The cashier told me dough is made in deadem I've heard of it but don't know where it is. Dough is delivered 3x a week. The cheese blend is already blended for them they just shake it up to evenly distribute the romano.

XL dough ball weight is 21.0oz

does this mean we are close to finding the hydration?
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #161 on: May 05, 2012, 08:03:34 AM »
peter,

After work tonight I went to PG and asked for an XL dough ball. The cashier told me dough is made in deadem I've heard of it but don't know where it is. Dough is delivered 3x a week. The cheese blend is already blended for them they just shake it up to evenly distribute the romano.

XL dough ball weight is 21.0oz

does this mean we are close to finding the hydration?

Jamie,

Thank you for the additional information. I think we are at the point where I can start playing around more seriously with some numbers for a PG clone dough formulation, starting with the 17" version, where we have the best information, and going from there to the 14" version. However, in the meantime can you confirm that the extra-large dough ball that you purchased from PG is just raw dough without any cornmeal? Also, if you get a chance sometime, can you ask the folks at the Manchester Papa Gino's what days they receive their dough balls? That should help us determine what amount of yeast is likely to fit that timetable, and possibly one that is based on a twice a week delivery cycle. It's hard to imagine that PG would make different dough balls for the different sets of delivery days.

It looks like Papa Gino's uses the "round number" approach to dough ball weights. If the 17" dough ball weighs 21 ounces, the thickness factor is 21/(3.14159 x 8.5 x 8.5) = 0.09252. The corresponding thickness factor for the 14" size pizza is 16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.103938. That means that the 17" PG pizzas have slightly thinner crusts. If I had to guess, I would say that PG uses an 8-ounce dough ball for the 10" size. That would translate into a thickness factor of 8/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.10186.

Dedham, MA is where Papa Gino's corporate headquarters is located. According to an article that was published in September, 2006 in Pizza Today, at http://www.papaginos.com/corporate/docs/Article-Pizza%20Today-%20Sept.%202006.pdf, the PG commissary is located in Walpole, MA, or at least it was in 2006. Walpole is about 12 miles and 20 minutes away from Dedham. That article also mentions that the PG dough balls are not frozen. Another article, at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_15_39/ai_n13649013/, indicates that the PG dough is made daily. Interestingly, the aggressive expansion plans mentioned in both articles apparently never materialized. 2006 was the year that residential home values peaked. Not long after, that market collapsed, along with the banking system. Real (inflation adjusted) disposable incomes have been in a steady decline since then, which has negatively impacted the restaurant business and even driven several chains out of business. Fortunately, as a privately-held company, PG has the luxury of being able to manage its businesses without having to deal with public shareholders and, for the most part, the SEC.

Peter

EDIT (8/10/12): For a substitute link for the Pizza Today article referenced above, see http://web.archive.org/web/20110329145320/http://www.papaginos.com/corporate/docs/Article-Pizza%20Today-%20Sept.%202006.pdf.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 06:52:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2012, 08:17:29 AM »
Peter,

The XL dough had no cornmeal on it.

I will ask about their delivery schedule too.
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2012, 09:40:04 AM »
I will ask about their delivery schedule too.

Jamie,

If you can, you might also ask about their dough management. For example, how soon after taking delivery of a new batch of dough balls are they able to use them, and how long do they let the dough balls warm up (presumably at room temperature or maybe in a commercial proofing unit) after removal from the cooler to make pizzas? If Papa Gino's is operating on both a twice and three times a week delivery schedules, and assuming that the dough balls are all the same, that can mean that those on the three-days-a-week delivery schedule may have to manage their dough balls somewhat differently than those who are on a two-days-a-week delivery schedule.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #164 on: May 14, 2012, 11:26:35 AM »
Jamie,

Recently, I decided to conduct some tests to attempt to decipher the three-cheese blend that Papa Gino’s uses on its pizzas. As previously mentioned, the few times that I had Papa Gino’s pizzas, I could not detect the flavor of the cheddar cheese or the Romano cheese. Later, after analyzing the PG Nutrition Facts, I came to the conclusion (previously noted) that it was likely that PG was using mainly mozzarella cheese for the blend, with considerably lower amounts of cheddar cheese and Romano cheese. It is also possible that PG is using a low- or reduced-fat version of its cheddar cheese. Whereas a typical low-moisture part skin (LMPS) mozzarella cheese (which is the type of mozzarella cheese that PG says it uses) has a total fat content of about 6 grams per ounce, it is about 9 grams for regular cheddar cheese (and around 7.5 grams per ounce for grated Romano cheese). Similarly, the cholesterol value of one ounce of a typical LMPS mozzarella cheese is about 15-20 mg, whereas it is around 25-30 mg for regular cheddar cheese (and around 30 mg for a typical grated Romano cheese). If I am right in my analysis, to satisfy the PG Nutrition Facts, the fat and cholesterol values can’t be too high.

For my analysis, I assumed that PG uses 10 ounces of the cheese blend for a basic 14” cheese pizza. To arrive at the 10-ounce figure, I calculated the weight of such a pizza from the PG Nutrition facts and then factored in what else we know about weights of dough and sauce for that size pizza. In so doing, I relied on what I was told by PG (via an email exchange) about the weights of their pizzas, specifically, that the weights of their pizzas are unbaked pizza weights. On that basis, an unbaked PG cheese pizza weighs 8 x 113 grams = 904 grams, or about 32 ounces. We know that the dough ball weight for a 14” PG pizza is 16 ounces, and I was previously told by a PG worker that the amount of sauce for a 14” PG pizza is 6 ounces. That is by volume but 6 ounces of sauce by volume will not weigh much more than 6 ounces, maybe around 6.1 ounces. So, if we do the math, 32-16-6.1 = 9.9 ounces, or about 10 ounces for the cheese blend. There may be some slight variations in this number because of variations in the weights of the dough balls made at the PG commissary for the 14” PG pizzas. Also, there is cornmeal that ends up in the dough balls (about a fraction of an ounce). 

For purposes of my tests, I made up several (five) samples of cheese blends with different ratios of LMPS mozzarella cheese and cheddar cheese. I did not attempt to factor in the Romano cheese for these tests since adding a third variable would unduly complicate the tests. For my purposes, I used the Crystal Farms brand of LMPS mozzarella cheese and cheddar cheese. I was hoping to find a mild cheddar cheese but the closest I could find at my local supermarket was the medium cheddar cheese. Also, it was orange. That is because of the addition of annatto color. However, nutritionally and from a taste standpoint, a cheddar cheese with the annatto orange color is the same as one without the annatto orange color.

There was nothing overly scientific about my tests. There are many different brands of LMPS mozzarella cheeses and cheddar cheeses (and also Romano cheeses) with different price points, different nutritional compositions, and different flavor profiles. Also, the overall tastes of the cheese blends might be different without the Romano cheese than with it. What I was trying to divine is a ballpark ratio of the LMPS and cheddar cheese. So, with this objective in mind, I made up the following samples of LMPS mozzarella-medium cheddar cheese blends, each weighing 2 ounces. To measure out the two-ounce samples, I used my large digital scale to weigh out to full grams and my small digital scale to weigh out the fractional grams (with 0.1 gram accuracy):

50/50 = 1oz LMPS* + 1oz cheddar** = 28.35g LMPS + 28.35g cheddar
60/40 = 1.2oz LMPS + 0.8oz cheddar = 34g LMPS + 22.7g cheddar
70/30 = 1.4oz LMPS + 0.6oz cheddar = 39.7g LMPS + 17g cheddar
80/20 = 1.6oz LMPS + 0.4oz cheddar =  45.4g LMPS + 11.34g cheddar
90/10 = 1.8oz LMPS + 0.2oz cheddar = 51g LMPS + 5.7g cheddar
* Crystal Farms LMPS: 1oz contains 6g Total Fat, 4g Sat Fat, 20mg Cholesterol and 180mg Sodium
** Crystal Farms medium cheddar (with annatto color): 1oz contains 9g Total Fat, 4g Sat fat, 30mg Cholesterol and 180mg Sodium

I conducted several taste tests of the above blends, rinsing my mouth out with water after each tasting. When I was done, I concluded that the blend that was the closest match was the 90/10 blend. By “closest match”, I mean that I could no longer taste the cheddar cheese. In all the other samples, I could still taste the cheddar cheese. It did occur to me that maybe a cooked blend of the two cheeses would have a different taste profile than the raw cheese blend, but I assumed (correctly or incorrectly) that if I could not taste the cheddar cheese in a cooked cheese blend I would be unlikely to taste it in a raw cheese blend. I also acknowledged that a medium cheddar cheese has a more pronounced flavor than a mild version of cheddar cheese. At some point, I should be able to find a mild cheddar cheese to test out along the same lines as above. However, such a test should be easier to conduct since I now have a pretty good idea of what test ratio to start with. I might also purchase a grated Romano cheese or else use my Pecorino Romano cheese even if it is likely to have a much more pronounced taste than a commercial supermarket bottled grated Romano cheese. But, whatever comes out of my tests, a 90/10 ratio with a little Romano cheese makes sense to me, mainly because I have discovered that cheddar cheeses oil off considerably more than mozzarella cheeses, even whole-milk mozzarella cheeses. Since PG touts its concern over the fat content of its pizzas (see the first question and answer in the PG FAQ at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=faq), it is unlikely that PG wants to have a fatty looking oily film over its pizzas.

After arriving at the above conclusion on the 90/10 blend, I then ran some numbers on the Total Fat, Sat Fat and Cholesterol for that blend, using the values for these components from the labels of the two Crystal Farms cheeses. I also then added a Romano cheese component so that I could compare the final numbers with the PG Nutrition Facts. I concluded that I was somewhat higher with my numbers than the PG Nutrition Facts, but could get closer to the PG numbers by assuming a LMPS mozzarella cheese with lower fat and cholesterol values than those I used, and which is widely available both at retail and at the foodservice level. Using a reduced-fat cheddar cheese would help along those lines. I might add that when I was in my local supermarket, I saw two reduced-fat cheddar cheeses from Cabot, one with 50% fat reduction and another with 75% fat reduction. Of course, if I am wrong in my assumption and calculation of the amount of the cheese blend that PG uses, I would have to recalculate the numbers should we learn how much of the cheese blend PG actually uses on a 14” cheese pizza. All I know, from what I was told by the aforementioned PG worker, is that two portion cups scoops (he didn’t know the size of the portion cup) of the cheese blend are used for that size pizza.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #165 on: May 14, 2012, 12:12:34 PM »
Jamie,

After I conducted the tests reported in my last reply, I went back to my local supermarket to revisit the cheddar cheese section to see whether I could find a mild cheddar cheese. To my surprise, I found that they had apparently restocked their cheddar cheese section and I was able to find a Crystal Farms mild cheddar cheese (or maybe I just missed the mild cheddar cheese in my prior visit). Again, it was an orange cheddar cheese with the annatto color. In checking the Nutrition Facts for that cheese, I found that they were identical to the Crystal Farms medium cheddar cheese. Maybe a shorter aging period is used for the milder version. Both cheeses were of the same color.

Before testing the mild Crystal Farms cheddar cheese, I tasted it in comparison with the Crystal Farms medium cheddar cheese. It was obviously milder but not dramatically so. I then proceeded to make two blends, with ratios of 85/15 and 90/10. Again, I concluded that the 90/10 ratio was the closer match. That is, I could still taste the cheddar cheese in the 85/15 sample.

While I was at it, I decided to grate some of my Pecorino Romano cheese and to use it for some more tests. I used it with the two samples mentioned above, at rates of 0.5% and 1%. In both cases, I could taste it in the two sample blends. No doubt PG is using a foodservice grade of Romano cheese that is milder and less costly than the Pecorino Romano cheese that I use. In due course, I plan to buy a supermarket grade of grated Romano cheese to test in the 90/10 blend.

Since I had not used the earlier cheese samples (the five samples discussed earlier), I combined them and used them to make a pizza. I also added some of the grated Pecorino Romano cheese. I estimate that the total blend was around 70/30 plus a bit of the Romano cheese. I thought that that blend was very tasty one, even better than what I believe Papa Gino’s is using. In my area, the cheddar cheeses are more expensive than plain LMPS mozzarella cheeses so I suspect that Papa Gino’s is not trying to run up the cost of its cheese blend by using more of the cheddar cheese and, by using less of the cheddar cheese, it also avoids the oiling off of the cheddar cheese, as previously discussed.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #166 on: May 14, 2012, 04:59:00 PM »
Peter,

 Good work on those cheese blend tests!

 I would agree with everything that you said about 90/10 ratio because when I started paying attention to the cheese on the pizza I didn't even know there was any cheddar in the blend I can't really taste it I would have guessed 85/14/1 so that ratio makes perfect sense to what my taste buds are telling me.

 I asked a store manager about dough schedule, they receive dough on monday, wednesday, and friday.
he told me they get mondays shipment around 7:00pm tonight(monday). He said dough could be used right away if needed but they usually don't get into the new dough until the next day. He gave me a dough ball from the fridge and playing stupid I asked how long should I let the dough warm up before stretching/baking it. He said they try to take them out at least an hour before they are to be used and its a challenge trying to estimate how many trays they should take out for the upcoming business.

 Sorry the info took so long I was on vacation in Colombia. Also stopped in Miami south beach for a few days but now Im back home making pizzas again!
Jamie


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2012, 07:04:44 PM »
Jamie,

Welcome back. Your vacation actually gave me more time to think about matters like the Papa Gino's cheese blend and possible PG clone dough formulations.

To give you an update on the cheese blend matter, today I picked up some Romano cheese from one of the supermarkets near me. I was hoping to find a bottled Romano cheese all by itself but I had no luck. I saw grated Parmesan cheese and cheese blends including Romano cheese but no Romano cheese by itself. I ended up buying a shredded Romano cheese in the deli department of the supermarket. I am in the process of devising some tests to conduct with that cheese.

My speculation on the PG cheese blend is that maybe PG decided to include the cheddar cheese in their blend because there are many Greek pizza places in their serving area that use cheddar cheese combined with mozzarella cheese. PG couldn't use too much cheddar cheese but putting some in might appeal to the same customer base as the Greek pizza places. As for the Romano cheese, when you have over 170 stores, the logical thing to do rather than have workers in the stores apply the Romano cheese to the pizzas, is to just include the Romano cheese in with the rest of the cheese blend. And, since the amount of grated Romano cheese typically applied to pizzas is small (a scattering), it would represent a very small percent of the cheese blend. I don't know if you noticed but in the answer to the PG fat question that I mentioned earlier (at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=faq), the woman who answered that question (her name is at the bottom of the page) mentioned only the mozzarella cheese. She said nothing about the cheddar cheese or the Romano cheese. I could see how she might not mention the Romano cheese because its use is minimal at best, but if there were a lot of cheddar cheese I would have thought that she would have mentioned it.

Now that you have given me the delivery schedule at the Manchester Papa Gino's store, I will try to factor that information into my thinking on possible PG clone formulations for you to experiment with. What we don't know is how much age the Manchester dough balls have on them by the time they reach the Manchester store. A 7:00 PM delvery time suggests that the Manchester dough balls may be at the end of a daily run. I would imagine that older dough balls are used before going to the youngest dough balls. So, the fermentation window may be three or four days. I wonder whether the dough balls that you purchased that had the spotting were among the most geriatric of the Manchester dough balls. Evidence of that would be whether the skins formed from the dough balls were highly extensible and could not be tossed easily, if at all. Actually, those dough balls are almost always the best because of the extended fermentation. I know that some chain franchisees use dough balls when they are cold, even though their manuals may call for warming them up to at least 50-55 degrees F, but those dough balls make the worst crusts in my opinion.

As you ponder matters, I want you to know that the hydration value that I came up with as a result of your multiple hydration bake tests is somewhere between 50-51%. I should also say that such tests have previously been quite reliable. For example, when Norma, Chicago Bob and I performed hydration bake tests on samples of real Mellow Mushroom dough (in Norma's and Chicago Bob's case) and on one of my Mellow Mushroom clone doughs, in three different geographical locations, we all came up with the exact same numbers. Chicago Bob and Norma used the same model of digital scale, whereas mine was a different model. We all used different toaster ovens. Similarly, when Norma conducted a hydration bake test using a sample of a defrosted Pepe's pizza dough, the hydration value that I arrived at based on Norma's test was apparently so close to the actual hydration value for the Pepe's dough that Norma and her taste testers were hard pressed to note differences between the clone and the real deal. 

BTW, there is nothing per se wrong with a 50-51% formula hydration. As you know, that value is quite common for Greek style doughs that are so popular where you are in the Northeast. Also, there is a famous pizza dough that was devised by Big Dave Ostrander, a former pizza operator now an industry consultant, that has a formula hydration of around 50%. The original of that dough was called "Old Faithful". Eventually, other versions evolved, also called Old Faithful. I did a fair amount of work on the Old Faithful doughs and reported on that work in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.0.html. I have no idea as to whether the 50-51% hydration value is correct or not. It is mainly a matter that is material in determining how much yeast should be used to sustain a roughly three-day period of fermentation yet permit workers to work with the low-hydration doughs to make pizzas right after the dough balls are brought out of the cooler to room temperature, or shortly thereafter.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #168 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:39 AM »
Peter,

 I was wondering about how you came to the conclusion that its a 50-51% hydration. Could you explain your process to come to that figure?

 Also I Made dough with my spring king flour. It was the best dough, not too soft and not too chewy/leathery just right. However I was thinking of upping the salt level next time bc I think it might be a little higher here is the formula I used. ( I made this before your post on the 50-51% conclusion)

 56% water
 2.5% Salt
 2% oil



 .1% idy
 cold fermented 3 days
 
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #169 on: May 17, 2012, 10:59:46 AM »
Also I Made dough with my spring king flour. It was the best dough, not too soft and not too chewy/leathery just right.

I knew you'd like it  ;D

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #170 on: May 17, 2012, 11:04:36 AM »
Scott123,

 I mean by far!! the absolute best ;D

 All Trumps- too tough like leather
 Full strenght- better too soft though
 pillsbury4x- same as full strength
 kasl- don't know what all the rage is about.

 Spring king far and away the best.
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #171 on: May 17, 2012, 11:33:38 AM »
Jamie, I'm glad you like it.  I haven't read the entire thread. Are you using it for Greek or NY?

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #172 on: May 17, 2012, 11:39:10 AM »
Scott 123,

Im using it for ny style. trying to reverse engineer papa ginos dough with Peter and Normas help. This is why I like reverse engineering things it always shows me new things.
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #173 on: May 17, 2012, 12:22:07 PM »
I was wondering about how you came to the conclusion that its a 50-51% hydration. Could you explain your process to come to that figure?

Jamie,

To answer your question, I took the 41% figure that came out of your hydration bake tests (see the calculation at Reply 81 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15978.msg184781.html#msg184781), along with the fact that a dough ball for a PG 14" pizza weighs 16 ounces (setting the cornmeal aside for the moment), and I then came up with estimates for the salt, oil and yeast (ADY) and played around with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html until I got a formula hydration that yielded the 41% figure mentioned above. Specifically, this is the formulation I came up with:

Spring King High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (50.3%):
ADY (0.35%):
Salt (2.3%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.25%):
Total (155.2%):
292.27 g  |  10.31 oz | 0.64 lbs
147.01 g  |  5.19 oz | 0.32 lbs
1.02 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
6.72 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
6.58 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A

I will show you the actual calculation in a moment, but the above formulation was predicated on the use of non-rehydrated ADY on the assumption that Papa Gino's dough balls are usable in a window of about 3-5 days, and maybe even a day or so longer. However, when you told me recently (after I came up with the above dough formulation) that the Manchester Papa Gino's has three deliveries per week, I would guess that PG may now be using IDY in its commissary and a shorter fermentation window. The amount of oil in the above formulation is based on my best estimates from comparing the two sets of PG Nutrition Facts that I examined, one for the year 2010 when no oil was used in the PG dough and the most recent PG Nutrition Facts that do show the use of oil (soybean oil). The amount of salt shown in the above formulation was based on my perception from eating PG pizzas that the salt level was above 2%, maybe even close to 2.5%.

As for the calculation itself, you should bear in mind that the Spring King flour has a roughly 14% moisture content. That is a standard industry figure that just about every miller uses. You can even see it in the Spring King spec sheet at http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/spring_king_spring_patent.html. So, if we multiply the 292.27 grams given in the above formulation by 14%, we get 40.0178 grams. Adding that to the formula hydration of 147.01 grams, we get a total water content for the dough of 187.9278 grams. If we divide that figure by 453.6 grams, which is the total weight of the dough ball, we get 41.43%. That is a bit higher than the 41% you got but I gave you the benefit of the higher number because your scale is only accurate to 0.1 gram. The only other water in the dough formulation is the water content of the ADY. But it is only 0.08 gram. There is no water in the salt or oil.

I can tell you that the above dough formulation should work for a three-day (or more) cold fermentation. Even with the 2.25% oil, the "effective" hydration of 50.3 + 2.25 = 52.55% will still be a low hydration dough. In fact, you might have a problem making the dough by hand. For doughs with low hydrations, I generally use my food processor to start the dough and finish kneading it in my standard home KitchenAid stand mixer.

The only way to know if the 41% figure you came up with is correct is to actually make a dough using the above dough formulation. If you'd like, you can use IDY instead of ADY. And you can also increase the salt to 2.5%, which I agree may be closer to what PG is using. In that case, I would boost the oil a bit to get it closer but still less than the 2.5% salt figure. As an example, the modified dough formulation might be like this:

Spring King High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (50.5%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (2.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.4%):
Total (155.7%):
291.33 g  |  10.28 oz | 0.64 lbs
147.12 g  |  5.19 oz | 0.32 lbs
0.87 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
7.28 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.3 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
6.99 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A

You will note that the slight changes in the salt and oil allow for a slightly higher formula hydration (and a slight increase in the "effective" hydration to 52.9%) while still staying with the approximately 41% figure. I did not use a bowl residue compensation figure in the above formulation but, in practice, I would do so. I would use about 1.5% if using a food processor or mixer (or combination) and maybe around 3% if the dough is made by hand. To get to the 16-ounce dough ball weight, I would scale back the finished dough to that weight.

I should also mention that as a fallback measure I came up with another dough formulation but using a considerably higher formula hydration, even though it would not meet the 41% test. I am willing to show it to you but I really would like to see if either of the above formulations will produce what you are looking for, especially with the Spring King flour that is bromated and likely to produce a crumb structure that is better than if you were to use another flour with a comparable gluten content, such as the unbromated King Arthur bread flour. Even then, the comparison may not be especially meaningful unless your dough ball is in the same condition as the ones you have been buying from Papa Gino's that have had the spotting that you observed and noted in earlier posts.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 12:23:46 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #174 on: May 17, 2012, 01:04:05 PM »
Jamie,

If you are interested when Peter asked me what I thought the hydration was of the Pepe’s dough at Reply 23
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171175.html#msg171175  I answered in the next post at Reply 24 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171183.html#msg171183 that I thought the dough was 62-63% hydration.  Then I did the hydration test and gluten mass test at Reply 40 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171520.html#msg171520  From my results Peter came up with the water content of Pepe’s dough ball at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171580.html#msg171580  Peter came up with two formulations and the last one was at Reply 153 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg173159.html#msg173159 and that formulation made a pizza exactly like a Pepe’s pizza.

I am just posting this to show you how high of a hydration I thought the Pepe’s dough ball was, when really it wasn’t.

If you or Peter want me to also try the formulation he set-forth for the Papa Gino’s clone, I also can try it, but only have GM Full Strength flour to use.

Norma
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