Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 91928 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #175 on: May 17, 2012, 01:23:01 PM »
I also forgot to add in my last post I also tried out two “Old Faithful” doughs and pizzas with a low hydration of only 51% hydration and those pizzas didn’t turn out bad.  The one pizza I made using the “Old Faithful” formulation was at Reply 106 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg144939.html#msg144939

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #176 on: May 17, 2012, 02:28:17 PM »
Im using it for ny style. trying to reverse engineer papa ginos dough with Peter and Normas help. This is why I like reverse engineering things it always shows me new things.

Papa Gino's, really? Oh well, I guess nobody's perfect  ;D

Seriously, though, when you get a chance. try a thin thickness factor (.07), 62% hydration Spring King, 3% oil, 1% sugar 48 hour fermented dough bake in 4 minutes.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #177 on: May 18, 2012, 01:22:45 PM »
Jamie,

Following up on my recent cheese blend tests, I recently conducted an additional experiment in which I compared the tastes of uncooked and cooked versions of a cheese blend using the cheeses discussed before. Specifically, the cheese blend comprised shredded low-moisture, part skim (LMPS) mozzarella cheese (Crystal Farms brand), shredded mild cheddar cheese (Crystal Farms brand), and crumbled deli Romano cheese (Safeway brand). The ratio of the three cheeses was 88/10/2.

Before conducting the test, I compared the taste of the deli Romano cheese against freshly shredded Pecorino Romano cheese to see if they differed. The answer was not much. The tastes were very similar except that the deli brand had a slightly chemical taste, no doubt because of the inclusion of a preservative.

When I sampled the cheese blend uncooked, I could clearly detect the flavor of the cheddar cheese but I could not detect the flavor of the Romano cheese. For the cooked cheese part of the experiment, I cooked a sample of the 88/10/2 cheese blend and also samples of the LMPS mozzarella cheese and the mild cheddar cheese, which I used for control purposes. All samples were of the same weight. After cooking the three samples until they melted and after letting them cool down a bit, I tasted them. I was able obviously to tell the difference between the LMPS mozzarella cheese and the cheddar cheese but, even then, they tasted different than the same cheeses in the uncooked state. What came through most clearly was the saltiness of the cheeses. As for the cooked 88/10/2 cheese blend, I could not detect the cheddar cheese (or the Romano cheese). The blend had a rich, full and buttery taste that I thought was quite nice and better than either of the two cheeses alone but I could not identify the cheddar cheese. So, it appears that the kinds of experiments I conducted earlier to balance the blend to the point where I could not detect the cheddar cheese, in its uncooked state, are not particularly reliable.

Unfortunately, once we rule out simple taste tests, we are pretty much left with having to analyze the Papa Gino's Nutrition Facts. Doing so would be much easier if we were talking about only one cheese, but doing so with a three-cheese blend with endless combinations of the three cheeses is considerably more difficult. However, I still believe that we are perhaps still talking about a three-cheese blend combination that is high in the LMPS mozzarella cheese and low on the cheddar and Romano cheeses. It would be a big help if we knew how much of the three-cheese blend PG uses for a basic 14" cheese pizza. Even now, I believe that I can come up with a combination of cheeses that satisfies the Cholesterol part of the PG Nutrition Facts, however I have not been able to meet the Total Fats numbers (56 grams for a 14" PG cheese pizza). That is why it would help to know how much of the three-cheese blend PG actually uses for a basic 14" cheese pizza. At one time I thought that perhaps PG was using a fat-reduced cheddar cheese but I no longer believe that PG is using such a cheese or, for that matter, a fat-reduced mozzarella cheese. They would be more expensive than necessary and they would add more salt (sodium), which is how cheesemakers compensate for the reduced fats in the cheeses.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #178 on: May 21, 2012, 11:22:36 PM »
Peter,

  Sorry for the late reply.
 
 I stopped at Papa Ginos after work tonight and bought a large dough ball, I also asked to buy exactly the amount of cheese used to make a large pizza as well. The worker filled a small cup with the cheese blend then leveled it off. he did this twice.
 When I got home I weighed it, the cheese blend for a large PG pizza is 8.5oz.

I tasted the blend and could not detect cheddar cheese in the blend.
 
I ended up making the pizza tonight I wish I could take credit for more than just the sauce because this pizza was fantastic! heres some pics
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #179 on: May 22, 2012, 08:46:21 AM »
Jamie,

Thank you for the cheese weight information. That is great information.

Interestingly, if you go back to Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70637.html#msg70637, where I first proposed a cheese blend weight for a PG clone, I recommended 8.75 ounces. Later, when I made my first PG clone pizza, as discussed at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404, I actually used 8.5 ounces of the cheese blend. In a subsequent PG clone, as discussed at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71789.html#msg71789, I used 9 ounces for the cheese blend. For a product that is measured out volumetrically--and one with compaction dynamics--all three of the values I suggested and tried are credible numbers.

I plan to be out of town for the rest of the week so I won't be able to re-do the numbers until I return. However, I feel quite confident that the numbers, and especially the cholesterol and total fat numbers, will work out better. It was especially the total fat number that had me stymied, no matter what I tried to come up with a value that fit the PG Nutrition Facts. And that is why I suggested that you try to get the information on the amount of cheese blend that PG uses, particularly since I couldn't convince myself that PG was using only reduced-fat cheeses (I didn't mention it earlier but there is even a fat-reduced grated Romano cheese). It just didn't make good business sense to me. In the back of my mind was the nagging possibility that PG was using less cheese, or else their Nutrition Facts were suspect. Your confirming the amount of the cheese blend makes me feel a lot better.

It is also good to have you report that you couldn't taste the cheddar cheese in the raw PG cheese blend. I assume that you also did not detect the taste of the Romano cheese. Our taste sensors are bound to be different but I think that we may be talking about a cheese blend of around 90% low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese with the rest being mostly cheddar cheese and a small amount of Romano cheese.

Now I wouldn't be surprised to learn that PG uses less sauce than I imagined (around 6 fluid ounces, or a little bit more by weight). My recollection is that the PG sauce was on the thin side and not much of it was used. I know from my own experience that 6 ounces of sauce on a 14" pizza is quite a bit. I'm sure that I came up with 6 ounces for the sauce, as well as the weights of the dough balls, cheese blend and pepperoni slices, so that the numbers would line up with the Nutrition Facts that PG was using at the time. Maybe sometime you can buy an amount of sauce from PG that they use on a 14" pizza :-D. You seem to be very good at that sort of thing. Do you have a secret handshake that you use since you are all part of the brotherhood?

I think the next order of business is to get the hydration matter resolved. The only way I know of to get a handle on that is to try a PG clone dough along the lines I discussed in my last post. We can always modify the hydration in case it is clear that the hydration value I came up with is not correct.

BTW, when you have been baking your pizzas based on the dough balls you have purchased from PG's, what oven have you been using--your home oven or the one at work?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 03:25:58 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #180 on: May 22, 2012, 03:13:22 PM »
Peter,

 I will try to get the sauce amount from Papa Ginos next time I go there ;D.

Its not a secret handshake :-D I think its because I always go 10 minutes before they close because I get out at 9:40, they close at 10:00. So when I walk in they're thankful Im getting something really easy for them they just grab a dough ball and put it in a container and Im done. plus I make sure I let them know Im thankful.

I will try the bake test with the proposed hydration from earlier. I did try it a few days ago however I want to try using less yeast to ferment it longer like 3 days maybe, because the dough was stiff and I noticed with long fermented doughs they seem to all of a sudden gain hydration after several days.
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #181 on: May 22, 2012, 03:50:51 PM »
Jamie,

Since you have been doing all kinds of tests, you might want to try another. I call it the poppy seed trick. You can read about it at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. All you have to do is place two poppy seeds in the middle of the top of the dough ball once you place the dough ball into a round storage container before covering the container and placing it into the refrigerator. The poppy seeds should be spaced exactly one inch apart. Once the spacing between the two poppy seeds increases by about 1/4", to about 1 1/4", that should represent the point where the dough has just about doubled in volume. That is usually a convenient point to use the dough to make a pizza.

You can use seeds other then poppy seeds so long as you measure from the mid-points of the two seeds. Poppy seeds are good for this test because they are so small and easily embed into the surface of the dough ball. The movement of the dough is what increases the spacing of the poppy seeds during fermentation. You can see a recent example where Norma used the poppy seed trick, at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg185089.html#msg185089.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #182 on: May 22, 2012, 04:01:23 PM »
Peter,

ive been meaning to use the poppy seed trick to get a feel for what a dough ball that has doubled in volume looked like from the top side because right now I rely on my translucent plastic glad ware containers to show me fermentation bubbles on the underside so i wanted to move away from relying on that method too much because they don't make translucent dough boxes :)

Im going to the grocery store now ill pick some up.

I forgot to answer your question about ovens I use my home oven I have a steel plate scot123 suggested.
Ive used my uncles deck oven in his restaurant but got terrible results his oven says its running at 550 but the way my pizza baked it seemed more like 350 like a 10+ minute bake and barely any oven spring with a 62% hydrated dough. his oven is like 30 years old and Ive never seen anybody give it a tune up when I worked there a few years back.



Jamie

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #183 on: May 23, 2012, 02:06:54 PM »
Peter,

 Just wanted to let you know I made a pizza dough today following your formula you presented earlier.

50.3 hydration
2.3 salt
2.25 oil
.35 idy
finshed dough temp 80 degrees

I made a 16oz dough ball. It was more difficult to mix then normal but nothing was unexpected. However I wanted to let you know about something Ive observed when handling PG dough. There is usually a skin in some places on the dough usually on the sides of the dough ball its not overly dry but I notice it often. Im reporting this because Im not sure if thats a sign of a lower range hydration dough or maybe they just left the cover of for a while.

BTW, I made the dough around 11:00 am today and I checked on it a few minutes ago, its already showing signs of fermentation, do you think this will hinder our results bc were pretty sure its a 3day ferment right?
should I try to achieve a lower finished dough temp?
Jamie


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #184 on: May 23, 2012, 02:35:06 PM »
Jamie,

In a home setting, I try to shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F for cold fermented doughs. However, when making a fairly low hydration dough using typical home equipment (such as stand mixers and/or food processors), that can be a challenge because the dough can build up quite a bit of heat by the time the dough reaches the desired finished condition. That heat, even for a low hydration dough, can cause the dough to start fermenting more quickly than normal or desired. The best way to counteract that heat is to use colder water. In your case, your dough seems to be fermenting faster than I would have expected.

I have speculated that the PG dough balls at the Manchester PG store are usable in the 3-5 day range. So, unless your test dough ball was very warm, I think it should make it out to 3 days. Even if it is somewhat overfermented by that time, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. It might even be closer to the fermentation stage of some of the dough balls that you have purchased from PG's.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #185 on: May 27, 2012, 09:54:48 AM »
Peter,

 I used the dough ball following the formula I posted earlier. Heres what happened, Like I said the dough ball fermented very fast, probably bc I used of my finished dough temp of about 80 degrees.

 -When the dough was fermenting it "rose" instead of spreading out like the Papa Ginos dough does.

-The dough wasn't as extensible as PG dough it gave me some trouble I had to be more aggressive with it.

-However I got decent oven spring with the lower hydration.

 I think it was a good dough but not quite there, The doughs didn't behave the same nor look or feel the same.

As a little test I took home a small dough ball from work that has a hydration of 50% I did a hydration bake test on it to see if I got different results I used a 10.0g sample and did what I did before with the PG dough.
my result was 6.4g after the bake for a loss of 36%.

You had hinted earlier in the thread about a higher hydration formula that you had come up with. I would quote it but I don't know how to quote from previous replys. I would like to try out that formula.

Thanks for all the help Peter.

Jamie

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #186 on: May 27, 2012, 12:09:35 PM »
Peter,

 
 
 I would quote it but I don't know how to quote from previous replys.


Norma made it very easy for me here ....      http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19042.0.html
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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #187 on: May 28, 2012, 09:46:22 AM »
Chicago Bob,

 Thanks for that tip ill start using quotes to make posting easier I couldnt figure it out myself.
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #188 on: May 28, 2012, 10:12:29 AM »
Jamie,

While I was away from home, and while I was waiting for my plane back to Dallas, I found time to do a fair amount of number crunching in my efforts to come up with a cheese blend that will comply with the Papa Gino's Nutrition Facts. Unfortunately, the cheese blend sits in the middle of everything even though it has nothing to do per se with the dough. But you can't get the numbers for the dough until the numbers for the cheese blend are right. The same applies to the Papa Gino's pizza sauce but to a much lesser degree. We at least know from my past work on this project that the amount of sauce for a basic PG 14" pizza is said to be 6 ounces (fluid ounces).

I also did a search for a pizza sauce with the exact same ingredients and pecking order given at the PG website for PG's pizza sauce and the closest match I could find is the Pizzaiolo sauce at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Pizzaiolo-Autentico-Pizza-Sauce.pdf. That sauce contains oils but they do not affect the numbers I have been working with. Until we can get more information on the PG pizza sauce, I may use the Pizzaiolo sauce as a proxy for that sauce.

I also now believe that 8.5 ounces of the PG cheese blend may not yield the best match with the PG Nutrition Facts. You indicated that the worker in your Manchester PG store leveled the cheese blend that you purchased in the measuring cup. I did not see that when I visited the PG store in Massachusetts and saw the worker up close making pizzas. Leveling the cheese blend is a common practice to keep cheese costs under control but it will have the effect of yielding a lower weight when put on the scale. I am still playing around with the numbers, so it may be a while before I can suggest a new dough formulation. I would also like to see if the last PG clone formulation was correct. It is hard to say since we don't really know how PG manages its dough in its commissary and in transit to their stores, and also what dough management takes place in the stores themselves. If the PG dough in fact has a low hydration, more fermentation time could be given to the dough at the commissary so that the dough is more easily handled in the stores.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #189 on: May 29, 2012, 04:35:04 PM »
Jamie,

I have pretty much concluded my number crunching, at least for now, and hope to have a new PG clone dough formulation to share with you in a day or two. In the meantime, I thought I would report on the results of my study of the PG cheese blend in relation to the PG Nutrition Facts, and also on the PG pizza sauce.

At the outset, I should say that it is hard to be precise in the analysis of nutrition information for cheeses. There are so many suppliers and so many versions of cheeses, including the three types of cheeses used by Papa Gino’s, that it only takes a small change in any one piece of nutrition information--for example, the cholesterol numbers--to put you into a gray zone from the standpoint of analysis. Also, cheese products can and do change over the course of a year, based on what the cows and sheep eat, the quality of the feed grains, the time of year, and a host of other factors. I mentioned earlier that I do not think that 8.5 ounces of the PG cheese blend offers the best match with the PG Nutrition Facts. I still think that that is so although there is no way to say that absolutely without knowing the actual cheeses PG uses and from whom. The above said, at the moment, I think that a cheese blend weighing 8.75-9 ounces offers a better match with the PG Nutrition Facts.

In order to do my analysis, I had to find proxies for the three PG cheeses and also the PG pizza sauce. For the low-moisture part-skim (LMPS) mozzarella cheese, I used the Grande shredded LMPS mozzarella cheese (http://www.grandecheese.com/products/Pages/Product_Spec.aspx?ProductMasterID=18) as a proxy. Other LMPS mozzarella cheeses that also look to be reasonable proxies are the retail products produced by Saputo, including the Dragone LMPS mozzarella cheese (http://www.dragonecheese.com/OurCheeses/PrintCheese.aspx?id=43) and the Frigo LMPS mozzarella cheese (http://www.frigocheese.com/OurCheeses/PrintCheese.aspx?id=225).

For the cheddar cheese, I used generic mild cheddar cheese as a proxy for the PG cheddar cheese. As it so happens, the Crystal Farms mild cheddar cheese I have used for my testing has the same general Nutrition Facts as the generic data. For a proxy for the PG Romano cheese, I used a grated Pecorino Romano cheese from Colonna Brothers, at http://www.colonnabrothers.com/grated_cheese.html#. I picked that product because, like the PG Romano cheese, it is made entirely from sheep’s milk, not cow’s milk or a blend of sheep’s milk and cow’s milk, as are so many brands.

After running all kinds of cheese tests (as previously reported), and after considering everything else I know about the PG three-cheese blend, and what you also reported for the sample of the PG cheese blend you purchased, I believe that the following percents for the three cheeses are workable values:

LMPS mozzarella cheese: 88-91%
Mild cheddar cheese: 7-9%
Romano cheese: 2-3%

Of course, the three percents for the three cheeses should add up to 100%. To give some specific examples, for a cheese blend weighing 8.5 ounces, I found an 89/9/2 blend to work best from the standpoint of the PG Nutrition Facts; for an 8.75-ounce blend, I found a 91/7/2 blend to work best; for a 9-ounce blend, I found a 91/7/2 blend to work best. But, to be honest, I doubt that you would be able to distinguish between these three examples from a finished pizza. You are more likely to be able to detect the three different weights.

For the record, the factors I examined with respect to the cheeses and their compliance with the PG Nutrition Facts were Cholesterol, Total Fat and Saturated Fat. As noted below, I also looked at sodium (salt) values for the three cheeses. The above percent ranges mentioned above seem to fit the PG Nutrition Facts although some were closer than others.

With respect to the PG pizza sauce, as I previously mentioned, I found that the Stanislaus Pizzaiolo sauce, as noted at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Pizzaiolo-Autentico-Pizza-Sauce.pdf, to be a reasonable proxy for the PG pizza sauce. However, since I found that sauce, I found another Stanislaus product, the Full Red Fully Prepared Pizza Sauce, at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Fully-Prepared-Pizza-Sauce.pdf, that would also serve as a reasonable proxy for the PG pizza sauce. I chose these two products because their ingredients are in the same pecking order as the ingredients for the PG pizza sauce as given at the PG website (http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition/) but for the inclusion of an oil blend in the two Stanislaus products. I was not able to find the supplier of the PG pizza sauce through my searches but if PG is using Stanislaus as the source of its pizza sauce, it would be an easy matter to have Stanislaus leave the oil blend out of their sauces. Stanislaus routinely does that sort of thing for custom blends.

At some point, I will be studying the Nutrition Facts for the two Stanislaus products mentioned above to see which product comes closest to satisfying the Sugars component of the PG Nutrition Facts. To come up with an answer, I will have to estimate the Sugars in the Spring King flour. Another component of the pizza sauces that I have been analyzing is the Dietary Fiber. The only other source of Dietary Fiber under consideration is the Spring King flour. At this point, I believe that my numbers for Dietary Fiber comply with the PG Nutrition Facts.

As mentioned above, I also did a Sodium (salt) analysis. That can be a tough analysis because salt is in just about everything in a basic pizza. For example, for a basic PG cheese pizza, salt is in each of the three cheeses, the pizza sauce, and in the dough. However, I did a sodium analysis as best I could, using the amounts of cheeses and pizza sauce that I used for the rest of my analysis, and, surprisingly, I came up with a value that represents about 2.5% of the flour weight that I plan to use in the PG clone dough formulation that I will be giving you soon. I don't know if that was as a result of luck or just good analysis, but I will accept either for now.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #190 on: May 30, 2012, 07:50:24 AM »
Peter,

 Great job on those cheese blend work!

Im going to PG tonight after work are there any questions you'd want me to try to get info on?


With respect to the PG pizza sauce, as I previously mentioned, I found that the Stanislaus Pizzaiolo sauce, as noted at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Pizzaiolo-Autentico-Pizza-Sauce.pdf, to be a reasonable proxy for the PG pizza sauce. However, since I found that sauce, I found another Stanislaus product, the Full Red Fully Prepared Pizza Sauce, at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Fully-Prepared-Pizza-Sauce.pdf, that would also serve as a reasonable proxy for the PG pizza sauce. I chose these two products because their ingredients are in the same pecking order as the ingredients for the PG pizza sauce as given at the PG website (http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition/) but for the inclusion of an oil blend in the two Stanislaus products. I was not able to find the supplier of the PG pizza sauce through my searches but if PG is using Stanislaus as the source of its pizza sauce, it would be an easy matter to have Stanislaus leave the oil blend out of their sauces. Stanislaus routinely does that sort of thing for custom blends.



Peter

 I have tried the full red fully prepared and it doesn't taste like PG sauce. I was wondering if you knew if Escalon products are available in the Boston area on a commercial level. I had never heard of them until I joined this forum. Do they make custom blends? I ask because when I first tried classico and learned the classico brand canned crushed tomatoes were Escalon, I thought they tasted really close to what PG is using. Any thoughts on that. I know we are shoulders deep in the dough and cheese aspect but I wanted to bring that up.
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #191 on: May 30, 2012, 09:33:06 AM »
Jamie,

Yes, it did occur to me to look for an Escalon counterpart to the Stanislaus products I mentioned. For this purpose, I used the cross-reference chart that Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, put up several years ago at http://www.pizzamaking.com/escalon_stanislaus.html. As you will see from that chart, there appear to be two Escalon products that are considered to be the counterparts to the Stanislaus Full Red Fully Prepared Pizza Sauce--the BR (Bella Rossa?) Fully Prepared Pizza Sauce and the Allegro Classic Italian Pizza Sauce. I did not find the Stanislaus Pizzaiolo sauce on the Stanislaus side of the chart, so maybe that product did not exist as of the time of the creation of the chart. If you look at the Escalon brochure at http://www.escalon.net/common/pdfs/product_guide.pdf, at pages 7 and 8 (pages 9 and 10 of the pdf document), you will see brief descriptions of the two Escalon pizza sauces. Escalon does not provide Nutrition Facts on their website but I believe they will send them to interested parties upon request.

As far as getting more information from your visit to your local PG store tonight, I would be interested in knowing how the workers handle the dough balls from the time they receive them and the time they use them. I have read before that some stores that use commissary dough have special procedures for handling the dough at the store level. I'd also be interested in knowing how long the dough balls are usable from the time they receive them. Of course, if you can get more information on the source of the PG sauce or cheese blend, that information could also prove useful, if only to get a better fix on the numbers I have been studying. If you are able to purchase an amount of sauce used by PG on a 14" pizza, and then weigh that sauce, that information would also be helpful. You would also then be able to taste the sauce. I did this sort of thing when I did my reverse engineering and cloning of the Papa John's pizza sauce. I also froze some of the sauce sample for future reference and tests. I realize that it isn't always easy to get the above type of information, so I wouldn't be concerned if you come up empty.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #192 on: May 30, 2012, 11:31:40 AM »
Yesterday I noticed that Papa Gino's upgraded its website (at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition/). For a while, the former links to that website, including those listed at Google search, did not even work (although it looks like they are now OK). When I first saw the upgrade, I started to have palpitations because I thought that maybe Papa Gino's had changed its dough formulation again, and maybe other parts of its pizzas as well. The last thing I wanted to do was to re-do all of my calculations. Needless to say, I was relieved when I checked the Nutrition Facts and ingredients list and found that they appear not to have changed.

I neglected to mention earlier that when I did Google searches using the keywords "Tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid" and "Italian plum tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid", in parentheses, surprisingly the only hits I got were to Papa Gino's sources. Along the way, PG dropped the "Italian plum" part of its description of its pizza sauce so it is possible that they are now using a domestic tomato product in their pizza sauce.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 06:02:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #193 on: May 30, 2012, 10:21:56 PM »
Peter,



As far as getting more information from your visit to your local PG store tonight, I would be interested in knowing how the workers handle the dough balls from the time they receive them and the time they use them. I have read before that some stores that use commissary dough have special procedures for handling the dough at the store level. I'd also be interested in knowing how long the dough balls are usable from the time they receive them. Of course, if you can get more information on the source of the PG sauce or cheese blend, that information could also prove useful, if only to get a better fix on the numbers I have been studying. If you are able to purchase an amount of sauce used by PG on a 14" pizza, and then weigh that sauce, that information would also be helpful. You would also then be able to taste the sauce. I did this sort of thing when I did my reverse engineering and cloning of the Papa John's pizza sauce. I also froze some of the sauce sample for future reference and tests. I realize that it isn't always easy to get the above type of information, so I wouldn't be concerned if you come up empty.

Peter

  I went to Papa Ginos after work to night like I said I would. My efforts to obtain new info came up empty handed. They had no idea how long the dough balls were usable on a count of they only order what they need so they never have to throw away dough.

  I asked about the sauce(i.e. how much they use for a large pizza) They showed me a ladle and said 1 ladle for a large. There was no marker for the ounces on the ladle.

  I asked if the pizza sauce says Papa Ginos on the can, she said no it actually comes in a box and there are pouches in the box. I thought that was interesting.

All in all not much new info. I came across as a weirdo that asks a lot of odd questions lol :-D
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #194 on: May 31, 2012, 09:44:18 AM »
Jamie,

After I posted in Reply 135, I sent an email to Escalon in which I requested the Nutrition Facts and ingredients lists for the Bella Rossa Fully Prepared Pizza Sauce and the Allegro Classic Italian Pizza Sauce. Late yesterday afternoon, the requested information arrived. Here are the ingredients lists for those two products:

Bella Rossa Fully Prepared Pizza Sauce: Fresh Vine-Ripened Tomatoes, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Salt, Spices and Garlic Powder
Allegro Classic Italian Pizza Sauce: Tomato Puree, Sugar, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Spices, Garlic Powder

From the above, I would say that those products also appear to be reasonable proxies for the Papa Gino's pizza sauce, although I note that the Allegro pizza sauce contains added sugar and the tomatoes are not specified as being fresh vine-ripened tomatoes (maybe the added sugar is to sweeten tomatoes that are not naturally sweet). Also, both products contain oil. However, after you told me that the pizza sauce that PG uses comes in pouches, I did some further research and found this list of Heinz foodservice tomato products, http://kcs.heinzfoodservice.com/Product/ProductCategory.aspx?PROCAT=TO. As you may know, Heinz is the parent company of Escalon. If you go down the list of products, you will see a Heinz fully prepared pizza sauce that is sold in pouches. If you click on that product, you will see the related Nutrition Facts at http://kcs.heinzfoodservice.com/Product/productdetail.aspx?PROID=560400. I was unable to find what the ingredients list is for that product but the Nutrition Facts suggest that the Heinz pouch product is a reasonable proxy for the PG pizza sauce. I don't know if PG actually uses the Heinz pouch product but Agar, PG's foodservice/distributor, carries Heinz products (see the Heinz logo at http://www.agarsupply.com/food.htm).

What is not clear at this point is whether the Heinz pizza sauce pouch product contains any oil. The Nutrition Facts for that product say that there is zero Total Fat for a 60-gram serving, but that can simply mean that the amount of Total Fat for that serving is less than 0.5 grams. Under FDA regulations, when the amount of Total Fat for a serving is less than 0.5 grams, it is reported in the Nutrition Facts as zero. As it so happens, the Allegro Classic Italian Pizza Sauce also shows zero Total Fat for a 60-gram serving, but other nutrition information I received from Heinz shows Total Fat greater than zero for a 100-gram serving. In either case, the amount of oil in the Heinz pouch product or the Allegro product is very low. I should also note that the amount of Sodium in a 60-gram serving of the Heinz pouch product, 320mg, is the same as for a 60-gram serving of the Allegro product. There are other similarities but we can't say that the two products are the same. We would need to see the ingredients for the Heinz pouch product.

Since the Heinz pouch product is not a retail product, or unless you are able to get a sample of that product, for our purposes I think it is safe to go with one of the Classico tomato products (either the peeled ground tomatoes or the crushed tomatoes) or even the 6-IN-1 ground tomatoes, and supplement them with a bit more salt, oregano, and garlic powder. The numbers for those products are good enough for proxy purposes. As I have previously mentioned, since I was told that PG uses 6 fluid ounces of pizza sauce for a 14" pizza, I would go with that amount, or the corresponding weight.

For purposes of the new PG clone dough formulation that I plan to prepare is there a particular window of usability that you would like to use?

Peter


Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #195 on: May 31, 2012, 11:43:21 AM »
Peter,
Jamie,

For purposes of the new PG clone dough formulation that I plan to prepare is there a particular window of usability that you would like to use?

Peter


I would like the dough to be able to go 3-5 days without being over proofed in fridge from my experience the test amount I use to do that is .1% idy  but that was using refrigerated spring water(I thought I wasn't getting top crust color because of chlorine in city water)
Jamie

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #196 on: May 31, 2012, 12:52:07 PM »
Just a pizza I wanted to share :D

18 hour cold ferment 2 hour warm up

wouldn't have been my best cheese pizza needed more fermentation for crust taste, but the toppings(pepperoni,hamburg,sausage,onion,pepper,oregano) made it taste good.
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #197 on: May 31, 2012, 01:01:15 PM »
Just a pizza I wanted to share :D


Looks very tasty, I'd hit it. :chef: :pizza:
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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #198 on: May 31, 2012, 02:54:30 PM »
Jamie,

I have set forth below a proposed Papa Gino's clone dough formulation for your consideration. In my refrigerator, which is currently at around 47 degrees F, and assuming a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, I estimate that I would need about 0.133% IDY to have the dough double after 72 hours (3 days). I arrived at this number based on a reference standard in which a dough ball with a dough formulation similar to that shown below, but with considerably more yeast, and with the refrigerator at the abovementioned temperature (about 47 degrees F), about doubled after 24 hours. That scenario was modified to come up with the 3-day version. To have the dough double after 120 hours (5 days), under the same conditions mentioned above, I estimate that I would need about 0.08% IDY.

You will also note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. To the extent that the actual finished dough weight exceeds 16 ounces, or 453.6 grams, the dough should be trimmed back to 16 ounces/453.5 grams. To the finished dough, to the extent possible, you might also add about 7 grams of cornmeal when forming the skin. That quantity is based on the ingredients lists that Papa Gino's used for the school pizzas as previously discussed, and where the amount of cornmeal was above the salt in the pecking order. You might not be able to incorporate the full amount of the cornmeal as you form the skin, but that is what the PG school data suggests if my numbers are otherwise correct.

For now, I have used the abovementioned IDY quantity (0.133%) in the dough formulation below but since you know your operating environment better than I, you should feel free to make any adjustment to the IDY quantity as you see fit.

If I assume that a bit over 6 ounces of sauce (by weight) and around 7.75 ounces of three-cheese blend is used, the total weight of the 14" unbaked pizza (cheese pizza), including the cornmeal, will be a bit over 31 ounces. That is about an ounce less than the PG Nutrition Facts suggest (31.89 ounces). If you decide to make a basic cheese pizza, you might weigh the pizza before and after baking so that we can calculate the weight loss during baking.

Here is the dough formulation:

Spring King Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.133%):
Salt (2.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.4%):
Total (165.033%):
278.98 g  |  9.84 oz | 0.62 lbs
167.39 g  |  5.9 oz | 0.37 lbs
0.37 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.12 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
6.97 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
6.7 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.47 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation: 1.5%

Your last pizza looks good. If you have a chance, you might tell me what the dough formulation was.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 04:16:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #199 on: May 31, 2012, 03:29:17 PM »
Peter,

 I can't wait to try this dough formula, ill try it tonight after work. It looks promising!


You last pizza looks good. If you have a chance, you might tell me what the dough formulation was.

Peter

My dough formula was this:
56% hydration warm water
2.5% salt
2.0% oil
.13%idy

I chose this formula because I know a lot of commercial pizzerias use 58% hydration.
The pizza looks pretty good but I didn't like it much. Way too much salty toppings. I like to stick to only one topping but I wanted to make a house special pizza just for kicks :)
Jamie


 

pizzapan