Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 74990 times)

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Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #160 on: May 04, 2012, 11:08:42 PM »
peter,

After work tonight I went to PG and asked for an XL dough ball. The cashier told me dough is made in deadem I've heard of it but don't know where it is. Dough is delivered 3x a week. The cheese blend is already blended for them they just shake it up to evenly distribute the romano.

XL dough ball weight is 21.0oz

does this mean we are close to finding the hydration?
Jamie


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #161 on: May 05, 2012, 08:03:34 AM »
peter,

After work tonight I went to PG and asked for an XL dough ball. The cashier told me dough is made in deadem I've heard of it but don't know where it is. Dough is delivered 3x a week. The cheese blend is already blended for them they just shake it up to evenly distribute the romano.

XL dough ball weight is 21.0oz

does this mean we are close to finding the hydration?


Jamie,

Thank you for the additional information. I think we are at the point where I can start playing around more seriously with some numbers for a PG clone dough formulation, starting with the 17" version, where we have the best information, and going from there to the 14" version. However, in the meantime can you confirm that the extra-large dough ball that you purchased from PG is just raw dough without any cornmeal? Also, if you get a chance sometime, can you ask the folks at the Manchester Papa Gino's what days they receive their dough balls? That should help us determine what amount of yeast is likely to fit that timetable, and possibly one that is based on a twice a week delivery cycle. It's hard to imagine that PG would make different dough balls for the different sets of delivery days.

It looks like Papa Gino's uses the "round number" approach to dough ball weights. If the 17" dough ball weighs 21 ounces, the thickness factor is 21/(3.14159 x 8.5 x 8.5) = 0.09252. The corresponding thickness factor for the 14" size pizza is 16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.103938. That means that the 17" PG pizzas have slightly thinner crusts. If I had to guess, I would say that PG uses an 8-ounce dough ball for the 10" size. That would translate into a thickness factor of 8/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.10186.

Dedham, MA is where Papa Gino's corporate headquarters is located. According to an article that was published in September, 2006 in Pizza Today, at http://www.papaginos.com/corporate/docs/Article-Pizza%20Today-%20Sept.%202006.pdf, the PG commissary is located in Walpole, MA, or at least it was in 2006. Walpole is about 12 miles and 20 minutes away from Dedham. That article also mentions that the PG dough balls are not frozen. Another article, at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_15_39/ai_n13649013/, indicates that the PG dough is made daily. Interestingly, the aggressive expansion plans mentioned in both articles apparently never materialized. 2006 was the year that residential home values peaked. Not long after, that market collapsed, along with the banking system. Real (inflation adjusted) disposable incomes have been in a steady decline since then, which has negatively impacted the restaurant business and even driven several chains out of business. Fortunately, as a privately-held company, PG has the luxury of being able to manage its businesses without having to deal with public shareholders and, for the most part, the SEC.

Peter

EDIT (8/10/12): For a substitute link for the Pizza Today article referenced above, see http://web.archive.org/web/20110329145320/http://www.papaginos.com/corporate/docs/Article-Pizza%20Today-%20Sept.%202006.pdf.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 06:52:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2012, 08:17:29 AM »
Peter,

The XL dough had no cornmeal on it.

I will ask about their delivery schedule too.
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2012, 09:40:04 AM »
I will ask about their delivery schedule too.

Jamie,

If you can, you might also ask about their dough management. For example, how soon after taking delivery of a new batch of dough balls are they able to use them, and how long do they let the dough balls warm up (presumably at room temperature or maybe in a commercial proofing unit) after removal from the cooler to make pizzas? If Papa Gino's is operating on both a twice and three times a week delivery schedules, and assuming that the dough balls are all the same, that can mean that those on the three-days-a-week delivery schedule may have to manage their dough balls somewhat differently than those who are on a two-days-a-week delivery schedule.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #164 on: May 14, 2012, 11:26:35 AM »
Jamie,

Recently, I decided to conduct some tests to attempt to decipher the three-cheese blend that Papa Gino’s uses on its pizzas. As previously mentioned, the few times that I had Papa Gino’s pizzas, I could not detect the flavor of the cheddar cheese or the Romano cheese. Later, after analyzing the PG Nutrition Facts, I came to the conclusion (previously noted) that it was likely that PG was using mainly mozzarella cheese for the blend, with considerably lower amounts of cheddar cheese and Romano cheese. It is also possible that PG is using a low- or reduced-fat version of its cheddar cheese. Whereas a typical low-moisture part skin (LMPS) mozzarella cheese (which is the type of mozzarella cheese that PG says it uses) has a total fat content of about 6 grams per ounce, it is about 9 grams for regular cheddar cheese (and around 7.5 grams per ounce for grated Romano cheese). Similarly, the cholesterol value of one ounce of a typical LMPS mozzarella cheese is about 15-20 mg, whereas it is around 25-30 mg for regular cheddar cheese (and around 30 mg for a typical grated Romano cheese). If I am right in my analysis, to satisfy the PG Nutrition Facts, the fat and cholesterol values can’t be too high.

For my analysis, I assumed that PG uses 10 ounces of the cheese blend for a basic 14” cheese pizza. To arrive at the 10-ounce figure, I calculated the weight of such a pizza from the PG Nutrition facts and then factored in what else we know about weights of dough and sauce for that size pizza. In so doing, I relied on what I was told by PG (via an email exchange) about the weights of their pizzas, specifically, that the weights of their pizzas are unbaked pizza weights. On that basis, an unbaked PG cheese pizza weighs 8 x 113 grams = 904 grams, or about 32 ounces. We know that the dough ball weight for a 14” PG pizza is 16 ounces, and I was previously told by a PG worker that the amount of sauce for a 14” PG pizza is 6 ounces. That is by volume but 6 ounces of sauce by volume will not weigh much more than 6 ounces, maybe around 6.1 ounces. So, if we do the math, 32-16-6.1 = 9.9 ounces, or about 10 ounces for the cheese blend. There may be some slight variations in this number because of variations in the weights of the dough balls made at the PG commissary for the 14” PG pizzas. Also, there is cornmeal that ends up in the dough balls (about a fraction of an ounce). 

For purposes of my tests, I made up several (five) samples of cheese blends with different ratios of LMPS mozzarella cheese and cheddar cheese. I did not attempt to factor in the Romano cheese for these tests since adding a third variable would unduly complicate the tests. For my purposes, I used the Crystal Farms brand of LMPS mozzarella cheese and cheddar cheese. I was hoping to find a mild cheddar cheese but the closest I could find at my local supermarket was the medium cheddar cheese. Also, it was orange. That is because of the addition of annatto color. However, nutritionally and from a taste standpoint, a cheddar cheese with the annatto orange color is the same as one without the annatto orange color.

There was nothing overly scientific about my tests. There are many different brands of LMPS mozzarella cheeses and cheddar cheeses (and also Romano cheeses) with different price points, different nutritional compositions, and different flavor profiles. Also, the overall tastes of the cheese blends might be different without the Romano cheese than with it. What I was trying to divine is a ballpark ratio of the LMPS and cheddar cheese. So, with this objective in mind, I made up the following samples of LMPS mozzarella-medium cheddar cheese blends, each weighing 2 ounces. To measure out the two-ounce samples, I used my large digital scale to weigh out to full grams and my small digital scale to weigh out the fractional grams (with 0.1 gram accuracy):

50/50 = 1oz LMPS* + 1oz cheddar** = 28.35g LMPS + 28.35g cheddar
60/40 = 1.2oz LMPS + 0.8oz cheddar = 34g LMPS + 22.7g cheddar
70/30 = 1.4oz LMPS + 0.6oz cheddar = 39.7g LMPS + 17g cheddar
80/20 = 1.6oz LMPS + 0.4oz cheddar =  45.4g LMPS + 11.34g cheddar
90/10 = 1.8oz LMPS + 0.2oz cheddar = 51g LMPS + 5.7g cheddar
* Crystal Farms LMPS: 1oz contains 6g Total Fat, 4g Sat Fat, 20mg Cholesterol and 180mg Sodium
** Crystal Farms medium cheddar (with annatto color): 1oz contains 9g Total Fat, 4g Sat fat, 30mg Cholesterol and 180mg Sodium

I conducted several taste tests of the above blends, rinsing my mouth out with water after each tasting. When I was done, I concluded that the blend that was the closest match was the 90/10 blend. By “closest match”, I mean that I could no longer taste the cheddar cheese. In all the other samples, I could still taste the cheddar cheese. It did occur to me that maybe a cooked blend of the two cheeses would have a different taste profile than the raw cheese blend, but I assumed (correctly or incorrectly) that if I could not taste the cheddar cheese in a cooked cheese blend I would be unlikely to taste it in a raw cheese blend. I also acknowledged that a medium cheddar cheese has a more pronounced flavor than a mild version of cheddar cheese. At some point, I should be able to find a mild cheddar cheese to test out along the same lines as above. However, such a test should be easier to conduct since I now have a pretty good idea of what test ratio to start with. I might also purchase a grated Romano cheese or else use my Pecorino Romano cheese even if it is likely to have a much more pronounced taste than a commercial supermarket bottled grated Romano cheese. But, whatever comes out of my tests, a 90/10 ratio with a little Romano cheese makes sense to me, mainly because I have discovered that cheddar cheeses oil off considerably more than mozzarella cheeses, even whole-milk mozzarella cheeses. Since PG touts its concern over the fat content of its pizzas (see the first question and answer in the PG FAQ at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=faq), it is unlikely that PG wants to have a fatty looking oily film over its pizzas.

After arriving at the above conclusion on the 90/10 blend, I then ran some numbers on the Total Fat, Sat Fat and Cholesterol for that blend, using the values for these components from the labels of the two Crystal Farms cheeses. I also then added a Romano cheese component so that I could compare the final numbers with the PG Nutrition Facts. I concluded that I was somewhat higher with my numbers than the PG Nutrition Facts, but could get closer to the PG numbers by assuming a LMPS mozzarella cheese with lower fat and cholesterol values than those I used, and which is widely available both at retail and at the foodservice level. Using a reduced-fat cheddar cheese would help along those lines. I might add that when I was in my local supermarket, I saw two reduced-fat cheddar cheeses from Cabot, one with 50% fat reduction and another with 75% fat reduction. Of course, if I am wrong in my assumption and calculation of the amount of the cheese blend that PG uses, I would have to recalculate the numbers should we learn how much of the cheese blend PG actually uses on a 14” cheese pizza. All I know, from what I was told by the aforementioned PG worker, is that two portion cups scoops (he didn’t know the size of the portion cup) of the cheese blend are used for that size pizza.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #165 on: May 14, 2012, 12:12:34 PM »
Jamie,

After I conducted the tests reported in my last reply, I went back to my local supermarket to revisit the cheddar cheese section to see whether I could find a mild cheddar cheese. To my surprise, I found that they had apparently restocked their cheddar cheese section and I was able to find a Crystal Farms mild cheddar cheese (or maybe I just missed the mild cheddar cheese in my prior visit). Again, it was an orange cheddar cheese with the annatto color. In checking the Nutrition Facts for that cheese, I found that they were identical to the Crystal Farms medium cheddar cheese. Maybe a shorter aging period is used for the milder version. Both cheeses were of the same color.

Before testing the mild Crystal Farms cheddar cheese, I tasted it in comparison with the Crystal Farms medium cheddar cheese. It was obviously milder but not dramatically so. I then proceeded to make two blends, with ratios of 85/15 and 90/10. Again, I concluded that the 90/10 ratio was the closer match. That is, I could still taste the cheddar cheese in the 85/15 sample.

While I was at it, I decided to grate some of my Pecorino Romano cheese and to use it for some more tests. I used it with the two samples mentioned above, at rates of 0.5% and 1%. In both cases, I could taste it in the two sample blends. No doubt PG is using a foodservice grade of Romano cheese that is milder and less costly than the Pecorino Romano cheese that I use. In due course, I plan to buy a supermarket grade of grated Romano cheese to test in the 90/10 blend.

Since I had not used the earlier cheese samples (the five samples discussed earlier), I combined them and used them to make a pizza. I also added some of the grated Pecorino Romano cheese. I estimate that the total blend was around 70/30 plus a bit of the Romano cheese. I thought that that blend was very tasty one, even better than what I believe Papa Gino’s is using. In my area, the cheddar cheeses are more expensive than plain LMPS mozzarella cheeses so I suspect that Papa Gino’s is not trying to run up the cost of its cheese blend by using more of the cheddar cheese and, by using less of the cheddar cheese, it also avoids the oiling off of the cheddar cheese, as previously discussed.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #166 on: May 14, 2012, 04:59:00 PM »
Peter,

 Good work on those cheese blend tests!

 I would agree with everything that you said about 90/10 ratio because when I started paying attention to the cheese on the pizza I didn't even know there was any cheddar in the blend I can't really taste it I would have guessed 85/14/1 so that ratio makes perfect sense to what my taste buds are telling me.

 I asked a store manager about dough schedule, they receive dough on monday, wednesday, and friday.
he told me they get mondays shipment around 7:00pm tonight(monday). He said dough could be used right away if needed but they usually don't get into the new dough until the next day. He gave me a dough ball from the fridge and playing stupid I asked how long should I let the dough warm up before stretching/baking it. He said they try to take them out at least an hour before they are to be used and its a challenge trying to estimate how many trays they should take out for the upcoming business.

 Sorry the info took so long I was on vacation in Colombia. Also stopped in Miami south beach for a few days but now Im back home making pizzas again!
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2012, 07:04:44 PM »
Jamie,

Welcome back. Your vacation actually gave me more time to think about matters like the Papa Gino's cheese blend and possible PG clone dough formulations.

To give you an update on the cheese blend matter, today I picked up some Romano cheese from one of the supermarkets near me. I was hoping to find a bottled Romano cheese all by itself but I had no luck. I saw grated Parmesan cheese and cheese blends including Romano cheese but no Romano cheese by itself. I ended up buying a shredded Romano cheese in the deli department of the supermarket. I am in the process of devising some tests to conduct with that cheese.

My speculation on the PG cheese blend is that maybe PG decided to include the cheddar cheese in their blend because there are many Greek pizza places in their serving area that use cheddar cheese combined with mozzarella cheese. PG couldn't use too much cheddar cheese but putting some in might appeal to the same customer base as the Greek pizza places. As for the Romano cheese, when you have over 170 stores, the logical thing to do rather than have workers in the stores apply the Romano cheese to the pizzas, is to just include the Romano cheese in with the rest of the cheese blend. And, since the amount of grated Romano cheese typically applied to pizzas is small (a scattering), it would represent a very small percent of the cheese blend. I don't know if you noticed but in the answer to the PG fat question that I mentioned earlier (at http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=faq), the woman who answered that question (her name is at the bottom of the page) mentioned only the mozzarella cheese. She said nothing about the cheddar cheese or the Romano cheese. I could see how she might not mention the Romano cheese because its use is minimal at best, but if there were a lot of cheddar cheese I would have thought that she would have mentioned it.

Now that you have given me the delivery schedule at the Manchester Papa Gino's store, I will try to factor that information into my thinking on possible PG clone formulations for you to experiment with. What we don't know is how much age the Manchester dough balls have on them by the time they reach the Manchester store. A 7:00 PM delvery time suggests that the Manchester dough balls may be at the end of a daily run. I would imagine that older dough balls are used before going to the youngest dough balls. So, the fermentation window may be three or four days. I wonder whether the dough balls that you purchased that had the spotting were among the most geriatric of the Manchester dough balls. Evidence of that would be whether the skins formed from the dough balls were highly extensible and could not be tossed easily, if at all. Actually, those dough balls are almost always the best because of the extended fermentation. I know that some chain franchisees use dough balls when they are cold, even though their manuals may call for warming them up to at least 50-55 degrees F, but those dough balls make the worst crusts in my opinion.

As you ponder matters, I want you to know that the hydration value that I came up with as a result of your multiple hydration bake tests is somewhere between 50-51%. I should also say that such tests have previously been quite reliable. For example, when Norma, Chicago Bob and I performed hydration bake tests on samples of real Mellow Mushroom dough (in Norma's and Chicago Bob's case) and on one of my Mellow Mushroom clone doughs, in three different geographical locations, we all came up with the exact same numbers. Chicago Bob and Norma used the same model of digital scale, whereas mine was a different model. We all used different toaster ovens. Similarly, when Norma conducted a hydration bake test using a sample of a defrosted Pepe's pizza dough, the hydration value that I arrived at based on Norma's test was apparently so close to the actual hydration value for the Pepe's dough that Norma and her taste testers were hard pressed to note differences between the clone and the real deal. 

BTW, there is nothing per se wrong with a 50-51% formula hydration. As you know, that value is quite common for Greek style doughs that are so popular where you are in the Northeast. Also, there is a famous pizza dough that was devised by Big Dave Ostrander, a former pizza operator now an industry consultant, that has a formula hydration of around 50%. The original of that dough was called "Old Faithful". Eventually, other versions evolved, also called Old Faithful. I did a fair amount of work on the Old Faithful doughs and reported on that work in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.0.html. I have no idea as to whether the 50-51% hydration value is correct or not. It is mainly a matter that is material in determining how much yeast should be used to sustain a roughly three-day period of fermentation yet permit workers to work with the low-hydration doughs to make pizzas right after the dough balls are brought out of the cooler to room temperature, or shortly thereafter.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #168 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:39 AM »
Peter,

 I was wondering about how you came to the conclusion that its a 50-51% hydration. Could you explain your process to come to that figure?

 Also I Made dough with my spring king flour. It was the best dough, not too soft and not too chewy/leathery just right. However I was thinking of upping the salt level next time bc I think it might be a little higher here is the formula I used. ( I made this before your post on the 50-51% conclusion)

 56% water
 2.5% Salt
 2% oil



 .1% idy
 cold fermented 3 days
 
Jamie

Offline scott123

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #169 on: May 17, 2012, 10:59:46 AM »
Also I Made dough with my spring king flour. It was the best dough, not too soft and not too chewy/leathery just right.

I knew you'd like it  ;D


Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #170 on: May 17, 2012, 11:04:36 AM »
Scott123,

 I mean by far!! the absolute best ;D

 All Trumps- too tough like leather
 Full strenght- better too soft though
 pillsbury4x- same as full strength
 kasl- don't know what all the rage is about.

 Spring king far and away the best.
Jamie

Offline scott123

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #171 on: May 17, 2012, 11:33:38 AM »
Jamie, I'm glad you like it.  I haven't read the entire thread. Are you using it for Greek or NY?

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #172 on: May 17, 2012, 11:39:10 AM »
Scott 123,

Im using it for ny style. trying to reverse engineer papa ginos dough with Peter and Normas help. This is why I like reverse engineering things it always shows me new things.
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #173 on: May 17, 2012, 12:22:07 PM »
I was wondering about how you came to the conclusion that its a 50-51% hydration. Could you explain your process to come to that figure?


Jamie,

To answer your question, I took the 41% figure that came out of your hydration bake tests (see the calculation at Reply 81 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15978.msg184781.html#msg184781), along with the fact that a dough ball for a PG 14" pizza weighs 16 ounces (setting the cornmeal aside for the moment), and I then came up with estimates for the salt, oil and yeast (ADY) and played around with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html until I got a formula hydration that yielded the 41% figure mentioned above. Specifically, this is the formulation I came up with:

Spring King High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (50.3%):
ADY (0.35%):
Salt (2.3%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.25%):
Total (155.2%):
292.27 g  |  10.31 oz | 0.64 lbs
147.01 g  |  5.19 oz | 0.32 lbs
1.02 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
6.72 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
6.58 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A

I will show you the actual calculation in a moment, but the above formulation was predicated on the use of non-rehydrated ADY on the assumption that Papa Gino's dough balls are usable in a window of about 3-5 days, and maybe even a day or so longer. However, when you told me recently (after I came up with the above dough formulation) that the Manchester Papa Gino's has three deliveries per week, I would guess that PG may now be using IDY in its commissary and a shorter fermentation window. The amount of oil in the above formulation is based on my best estimates from comparing the two sets of PG Nutrition Facts that I examined, one for the year 2010 when no oil was used in the PG dough and the most recent PG Nutrition Facts that do show the use of oil (soybean oil). The amount of salt shown in the above formulation was based on my perception from eating PG pizzas that the salt level was above 2%, maybe even close to 2.5%.

As for the calculation itself, you should bear in mind that the Spring King flour has a roughly 14% moisture content. That is a standard industry figure that just about every miller uses. You can even see it in the Spring King spec sheet at http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/spring_king_spring_patent.html. So, if we multiply the 292.27 grams given in the above formulation by 14%, we get 40.0178 grams. Adding that to the formula hydration of 147.01 grams, we get a total water content for the dough of 187.9278 grams. If we divide that figure by 453.6 grams, which is the total weight of the dough ball, we get 41.43%. That is a bit higher than the 41% you got but I gave you the benefit of the higher number because your scale is only accurate to 0.1 gram. The only other water in the dough formulation is the water content of the ADY. But it is only 0.08 gram. There is no water in the salt or oil.

I can tell you that the above dough formulation should work for a three-day (or more) cold fermentation. Even with the 2.25% oil, the "effective" hydration of 50.3 + 2.25 = 52.55% will still be a low hydration dough. In fact, you might have a problem making the dough by hand. For doughs with low hydrations, I generally use my food processor to start the dough and finish kneading it in my standard home KitchenAid stand mixer.

The only way to know if the 41% figure you came up with is correct is to actually make a dough using the above dough formulation. If you'd like, you can use IDY instead of ADY. And you can also increase the salt to 2.5%, which I agree may be closer to what PG is using. In that case, I would boost the oil a bit to get it closer but still less than the 2.5% salt figure. As an example, the modified dough formulation might be like this:

Spring King High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (50.5%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (2.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.4%):
Total (155.7%):
291.33 g  |  10.28 oz | 0.64 lbs
147.12 g  |  5.19 oz | 0.32 lbs
0.87 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
7.28 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.3 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
6.99 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | TF = N/A

You will note that the slight changes in the salt and oil allow for a slightly higher formula hydration (and a slight increase in the "effective" hydration to 52.9%) while still staying with the approximately 41% figure. I did not use a bowl residue compensation figure in the above formulation but, in practice, I would do so. I would use about 1.5% if using a food processor or mixer (or combination) and maybe around 3% if the dough is made by hand. To get to the 16-ounce dough ball weight, I would scale back the finished dough to that weight.

I should also mention that as a fallback measure I came up with another dough formulation but using a considerably higher formula hydration, even though it would not meet the 41% test. I am willing to show it to you but I really would like to see if either of the above formulations will produce what you are looking for, especially with the Spring King flour that is bromated and likely to produce a crumb structure that is better than if you were to use another flour with a comparable gluten content, such as the unbromated King Arthur bread flour. Even then, the comparison may not be especially meaningful unless your dough ball is in the same condition as the ones you have been buying from Papa Gino's that have had the spotting that you observed and noted in earlier posts.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 12:23:46 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #174 on: May 17, 2012, 01:04:05 PM »
Jamie,

If you are interested when Peter asked me what I thought the hydration was of the Pepe’s dough at Reply 23
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171175.html#msg171175  I answered in the next post at Reply 24 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171183.html#msg171183 that I thought the dough was 62-63% hydration.  Then I did the hydration test and gluten mass test at Reply 40 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171520.html#msg171520  From my results Peter came up with the water content of Pepe’s dough ball at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg171580.html#msg171580  Peter came up with two formulations and the last one was at Reply 153 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17632.msg173159.html#msg173159 and that formulation made a pizza exactly like a Pepe’s pizza.

I am just posting this to show you how high of a hydration I thought the Pepe’s dough ball was, when really it wasn’t.

If you or Peter want me to also try the formulation he set-forth for the Papa Gino’s clone, I also can try it, but only have GM Full Strength flour to use.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #175 on: May 17, 2012, 01:23:01 PM »
I also forgot to add in my last post I also tried out two “Old Faithful” doughs and pizzas with a low hydration of only 51% hydration and those pizzas didn’t turn out bad.  The one pizza I made using the “Old Faithful” formulation was at Reply 106 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg144939.html#msg144939

Norma
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Offline scott123

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #176 on: May 17, 2012, 02:28:17 PM »
Im using it for ny style. trying to reverse engineer papa ginos dough with Peter and Normas help. This is why I like reverse engineering things it always shows me new things.

Papa Gino's, really? Oh well, I guess nobody's perfect  ;D

Seriously, though, when you get a chance. try a thin thickness factor (.07), 62% hydration Spring King, 3% oil, 1% sugar 48 hour fermented dough bake in 4 minutes.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #177 on: May 18, 2012, 01:22:45 PM »
Jamie,

Following up on my recent cheese blend tests, I recently conducted an additional experiment in which I compared the tastes of uncooked and cooked versions of a cheese blend using the cheeses discussed before. Specifically, the cheese blend comprised shredded low-moisture, part skim (LMPS) mozzarella cheese (Crystal Farms brand), shredded mild cheddar cheese (Crystal Farms brand), and crumbled deli Romano cheese (Safeway brand). The ratio of the three cheeses was 88/10/2.

Before conducting the test, I compared the taste of the deli Romano cheese against freshly shredded Pecorino Romano cheese to see if they differed. The answer was not much. The tastes were very similar except that the deli brand had a slightly chemical taste, no doubt because of the inclusion of a preservative.

When I sampled the cheese blend uncooked, I could clearly detect the flavor of the cheddar cheese but I could not detect the flavor of the Romano cheese. For the cooked cheese part of the experiment, I cooked a sample of the 88/10/2 cheese blend and also samples of the LMPS mozzarella cheese and the mild cheddar cheese, which I used for control purposes. All samples were of the same weight. After cooking the three samples until they melted and after letting them cool down a bit, I tasted them. I was able obviously to tell the difference between the LMPS mozzarella cheese and the cheddar cheese but, even then, they tasted different than the same cheeses in the uncooked state. What came through most clearly was the saltiness of the cheeses. As for the cooked 88/10/2 cheese blend, I could not detect the cheddar cheese (or the Romano cheese). The blend had a rich, full and buttery taste that I thought was quite nice and better than either of the two cheeses alone but I could not identify the cheddar cheese. So, it appears that the kinds of experiments I conducted earlier to balance the blend to the point where I could not detect the cheddar cheese, in its uncooked state, are not particularly reliable.

Unfortunately, once we rule out simple taste tests, we are pretty much left with having to analyze the Papa Gino's Nutrition Facts. Doing so would be much easier if we were talking about only one cheese, but doing so with a three-cheese blend with endless combinations of the three cheeses is considerably more difficult. However, I still believe that we are perhaps still talking about a three-cheese blend combination that is high in the LMPS mozzarella cheese and low on the cheddar and Romano cheeses. It would be a big help if we knew how much of the three-cheese blend PG uses for a basic 14" cheese pizza. Even now, I believe that I can come up with a combination of cheeses that satisfies the Cholesterol part of the PG Nutrition Facts, however I have not been able to meet the Total Fats numbers (56 grams for a 14" PG cheese pizza). That is why it would help to know how much of the three-cheese blend PG actually uses for a basic 14" cheese pizza. At one time I thought that perhaps PG was using a fat-reduced cheddar cheese but I no longer believe that PG is using such a cheese or, for that matter, a fat-reduced mozzarella cheese. They would be more expensive than necessary and they would add more salt (sodium), which is how cheesemakers compensate for the reduced fats in the cheeses.

Peter

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #178 on: May 21, 2012, 11:22:36 PM »
Peter,

  Sorry for the late reply.
 
 I stopped at Papa Ginos after work tonight and bought a large dough ball, I also asked to buy exactly the amount of cheese used to make a large pizza as well. The worker filled a small cup with the cheese blend then leveled it off. he did this twice.
 When I got home I weighed it, the cheese blend for a large PG pizza is 8.5oz.

I tasted the blend and could not detect cheddar cheese in the blend.
 
I ended up making the pizza tonight I wish I could take credit for more than just the sauce because this pizza was fantastic! heres some pics
Jamie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #179 on: May 22, 2012, 08:46:21 AM »
Jamie,

Thank you for the cheese weight information. That is great information.

Interestingly, if you go back to Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70637.html#msg70637, where I first proposed a cheese blend weight for a PG clone, I recommended 8.75 ounces. Later, when I made my first PG clone pizza, as discussed at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404, I actually used 8.5 ounces of the cheese blend. In a subsequent PG clone, as discussed at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71789.html#msg71789, I used 9 ounces for the cheese blend. For a product that is measured out volumetrically--and one with compaction dynamics--all three of the values I suggested and tried are credible numbers.

I plan to be out of town for the rest of the week so I won't be able to re-do the numbers until I return. However, I feel quite confident that the numbers, and especially the cholesterol and total fat numbers, will work out better. It was especially the total fat number that had me stymied, no matter what I tried to come up with a value that fit the PG Nutrition Facts. And that is why I suggested that you try to get the information on the amount of cheese blend that PG uses, particularly since I couldn't convince myself that PG was using only reduced-fat cheeses (I didn't mention it earlier but there is even a fat-reduced grated Romano cheese). It just didn't make good business sense to me. In the back of my mind was the nagging possibility that PG was using less cheese, or else their Nutrition Facts were suspect. Your confirming the amount of the cheese blend makes me feel a lot better.

It is also good to have you report that you couldn't taste the cheddar cheese in the raw PG cheese blend. I assume that you also did not detect the taste of the Romano cheese. Our taste sensors are bound to be different but I think that we may be talking about a cheese blend of around 90% low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese with the rest being mostly cheddar cheese and a small amount of Romano cheese.

Now I wouldn't be surprised to learn that PG uses less sauce than I imagined (around 6 fluid ounces, or a little bit more by weight). My recollection is that the PG sauce was on the thin side and not much of it was used. I know from my own experience that 6 ounces of sauce on a 14" pizza is quite a bit. I'm sure that I came up with 6 ounces for the sauce, as well as the weights of the dough balls, cheese blend and pepperoni slices, so that the numbers would line up with the Nutrition Facts that PG was using at the time. Maybe sometime you can buy an amount of sauce from PG that they use on a 14" pizza :-D. You seem to be very good at that sort of thing. Do you have a secret handshake that you use since you are all part of the brotherhood?

I think the next order of business is to get the hydration matter resolved. The only way I know of to get a handle on that is to try a PG clone dough along the lines I discussed in my last post. We can always modify the hydration in case it is clear that the hydration value I came up with is not correct.

BTW, when you have been baking your pizzas based on the dough balls you have purchased from PG's, what oven have you been using--your home oven or the one at work?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 03:25:58 PM by Pete-zza »