Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 98270 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #250 on: September 24, 2012, 08:26:34 AM »
These picture of the cold fermenting Papa Ginoís dough ball were just taken.  The Papaís Ginoís dough ball hasnít fermented a lot since Saturday.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #251 on: September 24, 2012, 09:01:40 AM »
The Papaís Ginoís dough ball hasnít fermented a lot since Saturday.

Norma,

How much IDY did you end up using? The dough does appear to be fermenting, judging from the bubbling at the bottom of your container.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #252 on: September 24, 2012, 10:21:16 AM »
Norma,

How much IDY did you end up using? The dough does appear to be fermenting, judging from the bubbling at the bottom of your container.

Peter

Peter,

I used 0.133% IDY (0.37 grams) in your Papa Ginoís Clone Dough Formulation with oil.  The dough ball also looks like it is fermenting to me, but I didnít think the dough ball would be doubled until I am ready to make the pizza at 72 hrs. tomorrow.  I will wait until tomorrow to see what happens.

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #253 on: September 24, 2012, 10:31:47 AM »
I used 0.133% IDY (0.37 grams) in your Papa Ginoís Clone Dough Formulation with oil.  The dough ball also looks like it is fermenting to me, but I didnít think the dough ball would be doubled until I am ready to make the pizza at 72 hrs. tomorrow.  I will wait until tomorrow to see what happens.

Norma,

You might recall this statement from the previously referenced Reply 280 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956:

After about 72 hours in the refrigerator, the dough had risen by about 50 percent. Prior to this, the dough had slumped (as the gluten structure relaxed) but was still very firm and had hardly risen at all. The dough started to rise noticeably between 48 and 72 hours.

Under the circumstances, I wouldn't expect your dough to double by tomorrow. I would be looking more for a 50% increase (as the dough comes out of your cooler). But even that will depend on all of the temperatures to which the dough is subjected. Plus, there is the temper time and temperature to take into account that can make up for a slow rise.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #254 on: September 24, 2012, 05:20:16 PM »
Norma,

You might recall this statement from the previously referenced Reply 280 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956:

After about 72 hours in the refrigerator, the dough had risen by about 50 percent. Prior to this, the dough had slumped (as the gluten structure relaxed) but was still very firm and had hardly risen at all. The dough started to rise noticeably between 48 and 72 hours.

Under the circumstances, I wouldn't expect your dough to double by tomorrow. I would be looking more for a 50% increase (as the dough comes out of your cooler). But even that will depend on all of the temperatures to which the dough is subjected. Plus, there is the temper time and temperature to take into account that can make up for a slow rise.

Peter


Peter,

I guess I didnít recall you posting about the dough ball started to rise noticeably between 48 hrs. to 72 hrs.  My dough ball is only about 48 hrs. old now.  It is supposed to be cooler in my area tomorrow, so the warm-up time will probably produce a slower fermentation than usual.

Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #255 on: September 25, 2012, 06:46:06 AM »
The Papa Gino's clone dough ball has fermented a little bit more until this morning.  There are a few soft bubbles on the top, but they really canít be seen.  They only can be felt by touching the top of the dough ball.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 09:26:28 PM by norma427 »

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #256 on: September 25, 2012, 09:46:01 AM »
Norma, that is exactly how my dough ball was behaving There wasnt much signs of fermentation until day 3 and espcially on day 4 I used the dough on day 5. The bran was oxidizing it looked just like a PG dough. Im interested in your results. I want to see how a PG dough comes out with full strength
Jamie

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #257 on: September 25, 2012, 09:32:16 PM »
Norma, that is exactly how my dough ball was behaving There wasn't much signs of fermentation until day 3 and espcially on day 4 I used the dough on day 5. The bran was oxidizing it looked just like a PG dough. Im interested in your results. I want to see how a PG dough comes out with full strength

Jamie,

My Papa Gino's clone dough ball was oxidizing when I got to market today.  I don't know how that happened so fast, unless there wasn't enough light and I didn't see the speckles this morning.  I don't understand how that happened so fast. 

The pizza turned out good, but I am not sure if it is anything like a Papa Gino's pizza.  I will post the pictures tomorrow sometime.

Norma   

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #258 on: September 26, 2012, 07:12:23 AM »
I really donít know how the attempt went with the Papa Ginoís clone pizza yesterday, because I havenít really seen a lot of pictures of Papa Ginoís pizzas and also never ate one.

Steve and I weighed the cheese blend, sauce and cornmeal.  I donít recall seeing on this thread of how much oregano to add to the cheese blend.  We used Greek oregano and added it to the cheese blend.  I used Nasonville cheddar that I had purchased at Bova because I didnít want to open a new loaf of AMPI mild cheddar I got from my distributor yesterday just for one pizza.   

The dough balled was warmed-up for a little over an hour.  I think it could have been warmed-up longer, but we were busy yesterday and figured I better try to make the pizza while we had time.  The pizza was made about after 72 hrs. after mixing the dough.  I tried to form a small rim, but I donít think the rim is as small as a rim on a Papa Ginoís pizza.  I also donít know why the rim wanted to bubble some.  The crust under the cheese wanted to bubble some too.  The skin didnít want to stretch back and I had planned to measure the pizza to see if it was 14Ē right out of the oven, but forgot because I had a customer to wait on.   

Steve and I were also surprised that there were speckles in the dough ball after such a short fermentation at lower temperatures.  I donít recall seeing speckles in a dough ball before in this short of a fermentation time.  The added VWG couldnít be tasted in the crust.

Norma


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #259 on: September 26, 2012, 07:13:45 AM »
Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #260 on: September 26, 2012, 07:14:59 AM »
Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #261 on: September 26, 2012, 07:15:53 AM »
Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #262 on: September 26, 2012, 07:16:53 AM »
Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #263 on: September 26, 2012, 07:17:51 AM »
Norma

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #264 on: September 26, 2012, 07:18:52 AM »
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #265 on: September 26, 2012, 08:54:23 AM »
Norma,

I did a Google image search this morning looking for examples of PG pizzas and, as you might imagine, there were several different looks from the various PG stores. I thought that your pizza looked most closely like the one from Slice at http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/2011/11/20111116-chain-reaction-papa-ginos-1_C.jpg. Also, I thought that your pizza looked better than most of the PG pizzas I looked at this morning.

It sounds like you used all cheddar cheese for your latest PG clone. Is that right and, if so, how did the pizza taste? Also, do you have any other observations to pass on?

From your photos of the dough ball, I estimate that the dough rose by about 60%. That is close to what I estimated (an eyeball estimate of around 50%). That is good news from the standpoint of confirming my experience using a similar formulation, including the small amount of yeast. Your dough could have held up at least two more days in my opinion, up to about a tripling in volume, and would have produced more flavorful results had you decided to ferment the dough longer.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #266 on: September 26, 2012, 11:08:33 AM »
Norma,

I did a Google image search this morning looking for examples of PG pizzas and, as you might imagine, there were several different looks from the various PG stores. I thought that your pizza looked most closely like the one from Slice at http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/2011/11/20111116-chain-reaction-papa-ginos-1_C.jpg. Also, I thought that your pizza looked better than most of the PG pizzas I looked at this morning.

It sounds like you used all cheddar cheese for your latest PG clone. Is that right and, if so, how did the pizza taste? Also, do you have any other observations to pass on?

From your photos of the dough ball, I estimate that the dough rose by about 60%. That is close to what I estimated (an eyeball estimate of around 50%). That is good news from the standpoint of confirming my experience using a similar formulation, including the small amount of yeast. Your dough could have held up at least two more days in my opinion, up to about a tripling in volume, and would have produced more flavorful results had you decided to ferment the dough longer.

Peter

Peter,

I also did a Google image search this morning for PG pizza and it sure confused me what they are supposed to look like.  Thanks for finding the one on Slice and posting a link to it.

I didnít used all cheddar in the blend.  I used your recommended blend of mozzarella, cheddar and Romano cheeses.  We had a little hard time trying to figure how exactly how much of each cheese to use from your post, but at least I had Steve and a neighboring stand holder that was good with math when we went to weight out the cheese blend (I didnĎt have time to get out my cell with the calculator).  I only have a couple of recommendations to pass on in that the pizza was good, but I think I like a thinner pizza.  I really liked the three cheese blend with oregano.  I liked the bottom crust also.  I think your formulation produces a very good pizza and like how the dough ferments.  Do you know how much oregano PG uses in the 3 cheese blend?

Thanks for posting how much you estimate the dough ball rose by the pictures.  I purchased two little measuring tapes in the variety store, (for only .15 and they were to measure dogs) to be able to measure the spacing of the poppy seeds yesterday.  You sure are good at estimating how much my dough ball would have risen by doing your calculations.  ;D  Since you posted that my dough ball could have gone to 5 days for more flavorful results, do you think I should try that for next week?  Also, do you think I should try the same clone PG formulation, or try the one without oil? 

I donít know if I would have given the dough ball more warm-up time if the bubbles wouldnít have not appeared or not, but guess they might not have.


Norma   


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #267 on: September 26, 2012, 12:41:35 PM »
Norma,

Unfortunately, there is no way to determine how much oregano is used in the Papa Gino's cheese blend since it does not show up anywhere in the PG Nutrition Facts. And my recollection is that the oregano did not jump out at me when I last had a real PG pizza. So, if you can taste it, you perhaps used too much. To this, I would add that when I saw the PG three-cheese blend in one of the PG stores in Massachusetts, I could not detect the presence of the oregano visually from where I stood, as by seeing little dark spots in the blend.

While I was awaiting your reply, I went back to my notes to revisit what I did there in relation to the PG clone formulation I last gave you. My file on this project, going back to 2009, now comes to around 52 pages. A good part of my files is devoted to calculations related to the three cheeses used in the PG cheese blend. It would have been nice if we knew what amount of the cheese blend was used to do the Nutrition Facts calculations, by weight, but that information is not available to us. Also, in the PG stores, the workers use portioning cups to measure out the cheese blend. So, the amount of cheese blend that goes onto a pizza will depend on compaction factors and the hand of the worker making the pizza.

In my work, I felt that a cheese blend weight of around 8.5-8.75 ounces, with typical ratios of the three cheeses mentioned earlier, provided the best fit with the PG Nutrition Facts for a 14" cheese pizza. It was from my calculations for multiple possible cheese scenarios that I arrived at the amount of oil and salt to use in the PG clone formulations. These calculations were quite treacherous since there are so many brands of the three cheeses and because sodium is in just about every part of a typical PG pizza--in each of the three cheeses, in the sauce and in the dough (there are even trace amounts in water and in yeast). One of the few saving graces is the fact that the three cheeses have values of fats (total fat and sat fat), values of cholesterol, and sodium values that fall within fairly narrow ranges when you leave out low-fat or reduced-fat versions. That makes the particular brands less important. I also discovered that using say, 8.75 ounces of the cheese blend instead of 8.5 ounces did not move the needle enough on the amounts of oil and salt to pose a concern. I also discovered that small variations in the ratios of the three cheeses did not change the numbers much either.

With the above as background, I have tweaked the last PG clone dough formulation to move it a bit closer to the numbers that I came up with through all of my calculations. Obviously, I can't be certain of all of the percents of ingredients used but I feel comfortable that they will produce a pretty good pizza. So, the version of the PG clone formulation I have set forth below is the one I would suggest that you try next. In that dough formulation, I assumed that the flour is the Spring King flour since it was the numbers for that flour that I used to do the calculations. I also rounded out the salt value to 2%, since I believe that a round number like 2% may be what one would use in a central commissary rather than, say, 1.92%. The 1.92% value would apply to a dough made in a PG store. The amount of yeast shown in the formulation below, 0.35% IDY, was chosen to correlate with three days of cold fermentation and about a doubling of the dough. However, the actual volume expansion will depend on all of the temperatures to which the dough is subjected. But, going to a tripling in volume, if such were to occur, should also work. The reason I picked three days is because I believe that is the time period that Jamie came up with as a result of his conversations with PG workers. In due course, it should be possible to use other fermentation periods with different amounts of yeast to correlate with such time periods. It should also be possible to come up with an ADY version, using the ADY either dry or rehydrated. However, I would want to know more about how the PG workers in the NH PG stores use that form of yeast before spending time to come up with an ADY version.

I also decided to apportion the total amount of the formula oil in the dough formulation between the amount of oil that goes into the dough and the amount of oil that is used to coat the dough ball. Otherwise, the total amount of oil would exceed the baker's percent for that ingredient. To do the apportionment, I used the expression given by member November at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40104.html#msg40104. Since the calculation using that expression requires a cube root calculator, I used one I found online at http://www.calculatorpro.com/cube-root-calculator. I have set forth the allocation of the soybean oil in the notes to the dough formulation set forth below. I also indicated how much yellow cornmeal to use, at a rate of 2.5% of the total formula flour. That is the amount you want to end up with in and on the dough and skin. I also used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. As before, you want to trim the final dough ball weight back to 16 ounces.

As simple and innocuous as it may appear, with no bells and whistles, here is the latest recommended PG clone dough formulation:

Spring King Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.35%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.9%):
Total (163.25%):
282.02 g  |  9.95 oz | 0.62 lbs
166.39 g  |  5.87 oz | 0.37 lbs
0.99 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.64 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
5.36 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; the soybean oil should be allocated as follows: 3.9 grams of the soybean oil in the dough and 1.4 grams of the soybean oil to coat the final dough ball; about 7 grams (about 2 teaspoons) of yellow cornmeal should be used on and in the final dough ball/skin; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Since you do not have the Spring King flour, I will leave to you to decide what flour, or flour blend, to use. For example, one possibility that comes to mind is to use a bromated flour such as the Kyrol high-gluten flour (or other comparable bromated high-gluten flour) and dilute it with an all-purpose flour or a bread flour to get to a total protein content of 13.2%. You would use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to do the calculations.

If things turn out satisfactorily, at some point you have the option of making the skins thinner, as by using a lower thickness factor value.

Peter


« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 02:26:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #268 on: September 26, 2012, 05:31:35 PM »
Norma,

Unfortunately, there is no way to determine how much oregano is used in the Papa Gino's cheese blend since it does not show up anywhere in the PG Nutrition Facts. And my recollection is that the oregano did not jump out at me when I last had a real PG pizza. So, if you can taste it, you perhaps used too much. To this, I would add that when I saw the PG three-cheese blend in one of the PG stores in Massachusetts, I could not detect the presence of the oregano visually from where I stood, as by seeing little dark spots in the blend.

While I was awaiting your reply, I went back to my notes to revisit what I did there in relation to the PG clone formulation I last gave you. My file on this project, going back to 2009, now comes to around 52 pages. A good part of my files is devoted to calculations related to the three cheeses used in the PG cheese blend. It would have been nice if we knew what amount of the cheese blend was used to do the Nutrition Facts calculations, by weight, but that information is not available to us. Also, in the PG stores, the workers use portioning cups to measure out the cheese blend. So, the amount of cheese blend that goes onto a pizza will depend on compaction factors and the hand of the worker making the pizza.

In my work, I felt that a cheese blend weight of around 8.5-8.75 ounces, with typical ratios of the three cheeses mentioned earlier, provided the best fit with the PG Nutrition Facts for a 14" cheese pizza. It was from my calculations for multiple possible cheese scenarios that I arrived at the amount of oil and salt to use in the PG clone formulations. These calculations were quite treacherous since there are so many brands of the three cheeses and because sodium is in just about every part of a typical PG pizza--in each of the three cheeses, in the sauce and in the dough (there are even trace amounts in water and in yeast). One of the few saving graces is the fact that the three cheeses have values of fats (total fat and sat fat), values of cholesterol, and sodium values that fall within fairly narrow ranges when you leave out low-fat or reduced-fat versions. That makes the particular brands less important. I also discovered that using say, 8.75 ounces of the cheese blend instead of 8.5 ounces did not move the needle enough on the amounts of oil and salt to pose a concern. I also discovered that small variations in the ratios of the three cheeses did not change the numbers much either.

With the above as background, I have tweaked the last PG clone dough formulation to move it a bit closer to the numbers that I came up with through all of my calculations. Obviously, I can't be certain of all of the percents of ingredients used but I feel comfortable that they will produce a pretty good pizza. So, the version of the PG clone formulation I have set forth below is the one I would suggest that you try next. In that dough formulation, I assumed that the flour is the Spring King flour since it was the numbers for that flour that I used to do the calculations. I also rounded out the salt value to 2%, since I believe that a round number like 2% may be what one would use in a central commissary rather than, say, 1.92%. The 1.92% value would apply to a dough made in a PG store. The amount of yeast shown in the formulation below, 0.35% IDY, was chosen to correlate with three days of cold fermentation and about a doubling of the dough. However, the actual volume expansion will depend on all of the temperatures to which the dough is subjected. But, going to a tripling in volume, if such were to occur, should also work. The reason I picked three days is because I believe that is the time period that Jamie came up with as a result of his conversations with PG workers. In due course, it should be possible to use other fermentation periods with different amounts of yeast to correlate with such time periods. It should also be possible to come up with an ADY version, using the ADY either dry or rehydrated. However, I would want to know more about how the PG workers in the NH PG stores use that form of yeast before spending time to come up with an ADY version.

I also decided to apportion the total amount of the formula oil in the dough formulation between the amount of oil that goes into the dough and the amount of oil that is used to coat the dough ball. Otherwise, the total amount of oil would exceed the baker's percent for that ingredient. To do the apportionment, I used the expression given by member November at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40104.html#msg40104. Since the calculation using that expression requires a cube root calculator, I used one I found online at http://www.calculatorpro.com/cube-root-calculator. I have set forth the allocation of the soybean oil in the notes to the dough formulation set forth below. I also indicated how much yellow cornmeal to use, at a rate of 2.5% of the total formula flour. That is the amount you want to end up with in and on the dough and skin. I also used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. As before, you want to trim the final dough ball weight back to 16 ounces.

As simple and innocuous as it may appear, with no bells and whistles, here is the latest recommended PG clone dough formulation:

Spring King Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.35%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.9%):
Total (163.25%):
282.02 g  |  9.95 oz | 0.62 lbs
166.39 g  |  5.87 oz | 0.37 lbs
0.99 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.64 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
5.36 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; the soybean oil should be allocated as follows: 3.9 grams of the soybean oil in the dough and 1.4 grams of the soybean oil to coat the final dough ball; about 7 grams (about 2 teaspoons) of yellow cornmeal should be used on and in the final dough ball/skin; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Since you do not have the Spring King flour, I will leave to you to decide what flour, or flour blend, to use. For example, one possibility that comes to mind is to use a bromated flour such as the Kyrol high-gluten flour (or other comparable bromated high-gluten flour) and dilute it with an all-purpose flour or a bread flour to get to a total protein content of 13.2%. You would use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to do the calculations.

If things turn out satisfactorily, at some point you have the option of making the skins thinner, as by using a lower thickness factor value.

Peter




Peter,

I understand there is no way to determine actually how much oregano is used in Papa Ginoís cheese blend, since oregano wouldnít show up anywhere in the PG Nutrition Facts.  I donít think Steve and I really could taste the oregano a lot, but as you can see it can be seen in the cheese blend I did with the oregano.

Wow, 52 pages of notes and calculations on a Papa Ginoís clone and a good part of them are devoted to the PG cheese blend.  That sure is a lot of notes a calculations. 

I didnít know that by having a cheese blend of around 8.5-8.75 ounces is how you arrived at the amount of oil and salt to use in the PG clone formulations.

Thanks for tweaking the last PG clone formulation to move it a little bit closer to the numbers you came up with though all of your calculations. 

Since you have now posted to use 0.35 IDY in the current formulation I guess I should try to achieve a normal final dough temperature, or a little lower.  It is good to know that Jamie found out about the 3 day cold fermentation from his conversions with PG workers. 

I see you  apportioned the total amount of formula oil between the amount of dough and the oil that is used to coat the crust. 

I never would be able to use the cube root calculator to do the apportionment.

I will think over what flour or flour blend I might try next.  It still might be the GM Full Strength with VWG added.  I do have Kyrol and KAAP at home though. 

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #269 on: September 26, 2012, 06:14:33 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I wondered how the PG clone dough formulation I gave you in that post compared with those that I worked on earlier in this project. The answer is not much. For example, see the PG clone formulation at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11101.msg99983.html#msg99983. That formulation did not include any oil because at the time PG was not using any oil in its doughs. I never did get around to trying the formulation myself inasmuch as I was waiting for member Sal to try it and report back on his results, which never happened.

For further similarities in the dough formulations, see Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70637.html#msg70637. That post was the first one in which I proposed PG clone formulations, way back in 2009. Note, also, the PG clone flour/semolina dough formulation at Reply 96 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg73960.html#msg73960. Interestingly, the protein content of the flour/semolina blend for that formulation was 13.22%. That was completely fortuitous since at the time I did not know that PG was using a flour (the Spring King flour) with a protein content of 13.2%. 

As you can see, there have not been material changes in the various PG clone formulations. Adding oil to those formulations and adjusting the formula hydration to compensate for the addition of the oil pretty much takes us to where we are today. The major changes have been in the amount of the cheese blend and its composition.

When you make your next PG clone pizza, it would help if you weigh the dough (with the cornmeal added to it), the cheese blend and the pizza sauce. That will give us the unbaked weight of the pizza. Then, if you can weigh the baked pizza, that should give us an idea as to the losses incurred during baking and possibly give us some clues as to whether the amounts of the cheese blend and sauce are correct or at least in the ballpark.

I think a Kyrol/KAAP blend might be a good choice but that is entirely up to you. The difference between the Kyrol/KAAP blend and a Kyrol/Full Strength blend is that the Kyrol/Full Strength blend would be completely bromated.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #270 on: September 26, 2012, 07:46:54 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I wondered how the PG clone dough formulation I gave you in that post compared with those that I worked on earlier in this project. The answer is not much. For example, see the PG clone formulation at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11101.msg99983.html#msg99983. That formulation did not include any oil because at the time PG was not using any oil in its doughs. I never did get around to trying the formulation myself inasmuch as I was waiting for member Sal to try it and report back on his results, which never happened.

For further similarities in the dough formulations, see Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70637.html#msg70637. That post was the first one in which I proposed PG clone formulations, way back in 2009. Note, also, the PG clone flour/semolina dough formulation at Reply 96 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg73960.html#msg73960. Interestingly, the protein content of the flour/semolina blend for that formulation was 13.22%. That was completely fortuitous since at the time I did not know that PG was using a flour (the Spring King flour) with a protein content of 13.2%. 

As you can see, there have not been material changes in the various PG clone formulations. Adding oil to those formulations and adjusting the formula hydration to compensate for the addition of the oil pretty much takes us to where we are today. The major changes have been in the amount of the cheese blend and its composition.

When you make your next PG clone pizza, it would help if you weigh the dough (with the cornmeal added to it), the cheese blend and the pizza sauce. That will give us the unbaked weight of the pizza. Then, if you can weigh the baked pizza, that should give us an idea as to the losses incurred during baking and possibly give us some clues as to whether the amounts of the cheese blend and sauce are correct or at least in the ballpark.

I think a Kyrol/KAAP blend might be a good choice but that is entirely up to you. The difference between the Kyrol/KAAP blend and a Kyrol/Full Strength blend is that the Kyrol/Full Strength blend would be completely bromated.

Peter

Peter,

I see the PG clone dough formulation you set-forth for Sal is very similar to what I am trying.  I wonder if it doesnít get to you some when you go to all the bother of posting in detail a formulation for someone and they never report back.  It sure would get to me if I did all that work.  I looked at Salís profile and saw he never was on the forum again, after his last post to you.

Do you think I should only use my Foremost Farms 1950 brand of part-skim mozzarella and not use my blend of mozzarellas on my next attempt?  I am trying to think of a way to grate the cheese so it looks more like the cheeses PG uses.  I also have a small can of 6-in-1s if you think I should use them.  I am baking at a higher temperature than scott r previously noted.  Do you think that also makes a big difference? 

I read though the links you gave me and saw there have not been material changes to the various PG clone formulations. 

I can weigh the dough with the cornmeal added to it and also the cheese blend and pizza sauce.  I also can weigh the baked pizza to give us an idea of the losses that happen during baking. 

I will use the Kyrol/KAAP blend in my next attempt.

Norma 

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #271 on: September 26, 2012, 09:24:59 PM »
Norma,

No, it didn't bother me that Sal never returned. As you know, we have had many members who have asked for help to reverse engineer a favorite pizza but never stuck around long enough to see the results. For example, where is fredyk82 who started this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.0.html)? My objective is to get the job done and to learn something useful in the process. That's good enough for me.

I don't think it matters what brand of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese you use. I also do not think that using a blend of mozzarella cheeses shouldn't matter so long as you use the other two cheeses. The 6-in-1s should also work so long as you use the other ingredients used to make the sauce. As for the bake time, I have learned to respect what scott r says about these kinds of matters. But since I don't work with commercial ovens, I can't say what is the best way to proceed.

If you need help with the numbers for the Kyrol/KAAP blend, let me know.

Peter

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #272 on: September 26, 2012, 09:57:08 PM »
My objective is to get the job done and to learn something useful in the process. That's good enough for me.



Peter
And in doing so....everyone else here benefits.
As always Peter, thanks for your generosity.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #273 on: September 27, 2012, 06:10:46 AM »
Norma,

No, it didn't bother me that Sal never returned. As you know, we have had many members who have asked for help to reverse engineer a favorite pizza but never stuck around long enough to see the results. For example, where is fredyk82 who started this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.0.html)? My objective is to get the job done and to learn something useful in the process. That's good enough for me.

I don't think it matters what brand of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese you use. I also do not think that using a blend of mozzarella cheeses shouldn't matter so long as you use the other two cheeses. The 6-in-1s should also work so long as you use the other ingredients used to make the sauce. As for the bake time, I have learned to respect what scott r says about these kinds of matters. But since I don't work with commercial ovens, I can't say what is the best way to proceed.

If you need help with the numbers for the Kyrol/KAAP blend, let me know.

Peter

Peter,

I see scott r posted at Reply 9 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70556.html#msg70556 that Papa Ginoís used to use deck ovens and also knew a lot about what kind of cheeses, sauce, hydration and flour PG were using back in 2009. 

He posted that Papa Ginoís straddles the line between a typical Boston style pizza in a greased pan and a NY style.  I guess he meant the typical Boston style pizza was a Greek style pizza.

I meant the blend of mozzarellas I usually use have one cheese that is low moisture whole milk mozzarella.  That is why I asked if I should just used the part skim mozzarella in my PG next attempt.

I sure donít know what happened to fredyk82, but he didnít stay on the forum for very long. I also know many members donít come back, or either they donít post much after they want to try and clone a pizza.   dscoleri was one of those members on the boardwalk thread.  I find it interesting that your objective is to get the job done and learn something useful in the process.  I have too many problems with math to think like you do.   

Let me know if figured the Kyrol/KAAP blend right.  I got 201.4429 for the Kyrol flour and 80.5771 for the KAAP.  Novemberís mixed mass percentage calculator still gets me confused.   :-D

Norma 

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #274 on: September 27, 2012, 07:36:34 AM »
Norma,

I agree with scott r about his characterization of the Papa Gino's style of pizza except that I would add that I have never seen Papa Gino's characterize its pizza in any of its literature or advertising or promotional and advertising materials as being a NY style. From a crust thickness standpoint, I would put the PG pizza between a NY style and an American style. On the matter of the cheddar cheese, I have often wondered whether PG intentionally added cheddar cheese to its cheese blend in order to appeal to customers who like the Greek style pizza. The problem with that theory is that the amount of cheddar cheese in the PG cheese blend is not high enough to be readily detectable on the finished pizza, even though the blend is still quite good in my opinion, with a buttery flavor that is different than what you would get using only mozzarella cheese.

For your next PG clone pizza, you might want to use only low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese since that is the type of mozzarella cheese that PG uses in its cheese blend.

You did use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator correctly except that I would use 14% as the protein content of the Kyrol high-gluten flour. That is the value given in the ConAgra brochure at page 5 at http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf.

Peter


 

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