Author Topic: Papa Gino's Recipe  (Read 74684 times)

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Offline JConk007

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2009, 12:47:10 PM »
I agree Peter,
The second one I made completely cover and draped over the edge of the peel so I was close very close to 14" you can see by the picture how it ended up on the peel just before the trip into the oven. I would say It shrunk 1-1.5 inches minimum. and it was to room temp. I remember the ones from the 70s seemed bigger than the ones from the 90s or maybe I was that much smaller so they looked bigger?
The 2 day dough was very active a lot of gas bubbles when resting prior to stretch and during stretch in the rim, What exactly causes that? It was much different than say the Reinhart I have done that spreads right out, and can be tossed about. Still not sure about the sauce. I am used to the 6-1 on the deep dish so I think I was looking for something different tasting with the sauce. Citric acid? maybe a bit smoother/ thinner (not quant)? regardless you still cant buy anything as good as these tasted, at least around here, and it sure is fun trying! :chef:
oh I did plan to weigh the second one after blowing it on the first but oh no slice and dice everybody's hungry! sorry
John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:50:41 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2009, 01:13:03 PM »
John,

A longer fermentation time will affect the handling qualities of a pizza dough, and a long warm-up time can produce a lot of bubbles in the dough. The Reinhart NY style dough is a substantially different formulation and has a lot of oil in it, which will also help in shaping and stretching out the dough. As you know, there is no oil in the Papa Gino's dough, just flour, water, salt and yeast. It is mainly the water in the dough and the enzyme activity and its effect on the gluten that gives the dough its fluidity. I don't know what delivery cycle PG uses in delivering dough balls to their stores (Papa John's does twice a week deliveries) but maybe using less yeast and a lower hydration is something worth considering for a two-day (or longer) cold fermented dough. Using the dough with a shorter warm-up time, or perhaps none at all if the dough is amenable, might also be something worth considering.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2009, 01:16:54 PM »
John,

I forgot to ask but did you use cornmeal on the board when shaping and stretching the dough out to size?

Peter
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 05:40:46 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2009, 08:09:32 PM »
Peter,
Yes I did use the recommended amount of cornmeal for stretching the dough a touch of flour on the peel as the excess cornmeal burns on the stone. You can see a bit of the ground cornmeal on the peel in some of the pictures.
John
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 08:11:31 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline zalicious

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2009, 01:04:12 AM »
Well, I made my dough & sauce this morning before work. I put a 2 pie batch in my breadmaker for 5 minutes, (so I could enjoy my morning coffee while it did some of the work ;)). I let it sit for a little bit, & then I hand kneaded it for an additional 5 min.
For the sauce, I used the Pastene that Scottr recommended. To it, I added 1t oregano, 1/8t garlic, & 1/8t freshly ground black pepper. I have reservations about the sauce, as I usually use a bit more than this for seasonings. I came up with these numbers after going through my numerous cookbooks, & seeing what was generally used for a simple/not highly seasoned, sauce. Hope to have at least 1 of these pies cooked tomorrow.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2009, 12:39:20 PM »
Boy Za You have great taste in garlic powder!
So I too was a bit confused by the sauce ??? and not able to get the taste I was looking for with the 6 in 1s or the ingredients for the PG taste I remember Maybe I did not add enough of one or each? so please measure what you put in. As I told you I wung it and wish I measured totals of each. Dont forget the Oregano in the cheese too. are you dicing or shredding and what kind? Thanks, and glad your feeling better!
JC
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Offline zalicious

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2009, 01:40:22 PM »
Boy Za You have great taste in garlic powder!
So I too was a bit confused by the sauce ??? and not able to get the taste I was looking for with the 6 in 1s or the ingredients for the PG taste I remember Maybe I did not add enough of one or each? so please measure what you put in. As I told you I wung it and wish I measured totals of each. Dont forget the Oregano in the cheese too. are you dicing or shredding and what kind? Thanks, and glad your feeling better!
JC

I chuckled, too, when I saw we used the same garlic.
As far as the sauce goes, I carefully measured, (cause I didn't think it was going to be enough, but scott had said to just use a little; so that's why I started my cookbook search to see what a little might be). Can you make a guess on how much you put in?
I used, per 28 oz can:
1t oregano
1/8t garlic
1/8t freshly ground bl pepper

Quite a while ago, when I was trying to get a Boston area flavor to my sauce, scott had said that a lot of the pizzerias in that area used Stanislaus 7/11, he also suggested the Pastene as an alternative. I've been much happier with my sauces in general since switching to that brand.

As far as the cheese goes, my mozz is shredded. The cheddar, unfortunately, is slices I just bought at the deli, as I forgot to buy the white cheddar >:(. I will crumble them, & put them under the mozz to hide the fact that they are yellow ;D. I'll be using shredded Parmesan instead of the Romano.

I'm going to toss the oregano into my mozz right now, so I don't forget it. The sight of the oregano on your cheese pizza had made me drool ;).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2009, 02:21:06 PM »
zalicious,

As I noted earlier in Reply 37, the ingredients listing for the Papa Gino's pizza sauce is tomatoes, salt, black pepper, oregano, garlic powder, citric acid. It is hard to say whether the pecking order is right, by weight, because the ingredients listing for the dough are not correctly presented at the PG website. It is also hard to tell whether any salt is added to the tomatoes beyond the sodium already contained in the tomatoes used in the PG sauce (a typical 28-ounce can of crushed tomatoes will have sodium equivalent to about 1/2 teaspoon of salt). However, if we assume that the pecking order for the PG tomato sauce given above is correct, then that would say that there is more black pepper by weight than oregano and more oregano (by weight) than garlic powder. I recently had occasion to study weights of ingredients like oregano (1 t. = 2g.), ground black pepper (1 t. = 2g.), and garlic powder (1 t. = 2.67g.), and, on the basis of the amounts of those ingredients you will be using, your pecking order would be oregano, garlic powder and black pepper. I don't want to bias your results, but you might want to take note of the prominence of the oregano in the sauce in relation to what you remember about the flavors of the PG pizzas you had.

Peter


Offline zalicious

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2009, 03:00:16 PM »
Yes, I did note the pecking order of the seasonings, but didn't know how to use that info for amounts to put in. I left out the salt because it was already in the can, & I figured that might be enough. Unfortunately, I'm flying blind because I don't remember what PG tasted like; I only know that I liked it. Would these amounts be more appropriate?
1/2t salt
3/8t pepper
1/4t oregano
1/8t garlic
I'm really at a loss here. Advice more than welcome :).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2009, 03:26:50 PM »
zalicious,

That pecking order would work. You won't need to add any salt to the tomatoes unless you think that it is needed.

Since you will be using freshly ground black pepper, I think I would add it gradually and taste it as you do so to be sure that the sauce doesn't become too peppery. About the best we can do is to get the order of ingredients right. There are too many possible combinations to get the amounts of the ingredients right.

It will be interesting to see how the Pastene tomatoes work out.

Peter


Offline JConk007

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2009, 03:38:14 PM »
Thats probably close to what I used about 4 shakes of that special Garlic, a good pinch of salt, 5 turns on the pepper mill. and not too much 1/4 t  2 pinches/shakes of the large container of the oregano as there is some in the cheese. Hows that for technical? I could taste the prevalence of the oregano in my pies,  but I do not remember that flavor so much in the PGs I ate? I think the Pastenes may make some difference.  Hope  that helps (doubt it)
John
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Offline zalicious

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2009, 09:14:47 PM »
Got one of the pies cooked, & devoured, tonight.
After fretting over the seasoning amounts in the sauce, I opened up another can of Pastenes Kitchen Ready & added:
1/2t salt ( this can was salt free )
3/8t  fresh ground bl pepper
1/4t oregano
1/8t garlic

I let it sit for awhile, & then did a taste test of the 2 sauces. I liked the first one better (1t oregano, 1/8t fresh ground bl pepper, & 1/8t garlic with the approx 1/2t salt that Peter said would be in the can already).
When my husband came home, I had him taste the 2 sauces also. He choose the first one, too. What can I say, we like oregano ;).

I stretched the dough, with a bit of difficulty, to 14". When it was done, it measured 13".

We both loved the pie; crust, sauce, cheese blend ( with 4 healthy shakes of oregano added to the mozz ), everything. I will do this recipe again. The only problem is that it's been so long since we've had PG, we don't know how this compares.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2009, 09:29:13 PM »
zalicious,

Very nice job. Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the effort. I hope that fredyk82 returns to see the very good work that you, John and scott r did in trying to recreate the Papa Gino's pizzas. When I am next up in the Boston area, I will certainly have to check out the PG pizzas for myself. I will plan to make my own PG clone just before such a trip so that is firmly in my memory by the time I try a real PG pizza. Hopefully, in the meantime, more intelligence will emerge on their pizzas that will fill in some of the remaining blanks.

I plan soon to move this thread to the General Pizza Making board since it no longer falls in the Newbie category.

Peter

Offline zalicious

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2009, 09:41:48 PM »
"Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the effort."

( Pats satisfied belly ) No problem, Peter. ;D

Offline scott r

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2009, 01:17:41 AM »
I went to PG today to do some research.

There was LOTS of cornmeal on the pizza. No dough molds were used, even with some younger pizza makers.  There was very little cheese on the pizza,  certainly less than I see here in the pictures.  Maybe they have reduced their amounts with the recession like everyone else seems to be doing.   Cheese was very mild...... not much bite from the cheddar in there.   Also, the pies were almost raw inside.  very undercooked.  Still, somehow, it was a good pizza!

Offline JConk007

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2009, 08:50:36 AM »
Scott,
I  think Its the sauce we are stuggling with here, and I think you were hungry!

I agree there is alot less cheese than we are using even my second effort Had too much in my opinion too.

Also stretching to a real 14" after spring back? Were the pies you saw 14" ? 16" ?
Wish you would have put a slice picture up scott, being we all have nothing to go by? (my 30 year old PG memory cells are rapidly depleting :) )

Zalicious,
Also very tasty looking Nice job! How was the sauce?
Looks as though you ended up with about the same thickness I did, again not as thin as I remember, andas scott also mentions.
Thanks everybody
John

May try Sbrarro next I think I can, I think I can.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 08:56:59 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline zalicious

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2009, 11:28:04 AM »
I very much enjoyed the sauce. It had a nice bright, fresh taste to it. It contains less ingredients, & also lesser amounts than my usual sauce. It now has a home in my pizza file, as it's quick, easy, & tasty.
 Hopefully, I'll be able to cook my second dough ball tomorrow night. I'm eager to see how it handles & tastes. It will be 3 days old vs 30 hrs.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2009, 02:37:10 PM »
I recently alluded to the pizza shrinkage problem. Shortly thereafter, a forum member who is a skilled pizza professional sent me a PM to tell me that the shrinkage problem often occurs when the pizza maker makes a wrong move/motion while transferring the pizza from the peel. I was told that this can happen because of lack of skill or even loss of confidence. I have a 14" x 16" pizza stone and I can tell you that I am tentative when tying to deposit a 14" pizza squarely onto that stone so that it doesn't overlap the edge. Maybe that is because I don't do this sort of thing often enough to have developed the proper skills and total confidence. I was told that if the skin is made big enough without overstretching it, one can account/make up for the shrinkage. This is something that might be possible when using a deck oven with very large stones but, unfortunately, that won't work with my 14" peel and my stone size. I don't know if the PG pizza makers make their skins larger to compensate for shrinkage, but if so that might help explain why their pizzas seem to use less cheese. For example, 8.5 ounces of cheese on a 13" pizza is 0.0640387 ounces per square inch; for a 14" pizza, it is 0.055217 ounces per square inch (I have ignored the rims in both cases). The difference might be enough to create a perception that less cheese is used on one pizza than the other. The same disparity will exist for the sauce and cornmeal also.

The only reason the above issue matters is because of the weight factor. That is, for recreation/reverse engineering purposes, the total weight of the pizza (unbaked) has to be a bit more than the value specified in the Papa Gino's nutrition data for that type and size of pizza. We should also be mindful of the possibility that the pizza makers at Papa Gino's may not be making the "regulation" pizzas that the management at PG's believes is the case. Unless the pizza makers weight the cheeses and toppings, the finished pizza can be underweight or overweight. Also, as scott r noted, they may be intentionally cutting back on the amount of cheese and possibly the toppings. This is something that happens quite often, as noted in the PMQ Think Tank post by the poster "perfect pizzas" at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=13127#13127.

Peter


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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2009, 06:50:25 PM »
I recently alluded to the pizza shrinkage problem. Shortly thereafter, a forum member who is a skilled pizza professional sent me a PM to tell me that the shrinkage problem often occurs when the pizza maker makes a wrong move/motion while transferring the pizza from the peel. I was told that this can happen because of lack of skill or even loss of confidence. I have a 14" x 16" pizza stone and I can tell you that I am tentative when tying to deposit a 14" pizza squarely onto that stone so that it doesn't overlap the edge. Maybe that is because I don't do this sort of thing often enough to have developed the proper skills and total confidence. I was told that if the skin is made big enough without overstretching it, one can account/make up for the shrinkage. This is something that might be possible when using a deck oven with very large stones but, unfortunately, that won't work with my 14" peel and my stone size. I don't know if the PG pizza makers make their skins larger to compensate for shrinkage, but if so that might help explain why their pizzas seem to use less cheese. For example, 8.5 ounces of cheese on a 13" pizza is 0.0640387 ounces per square inch; for a 14" pizza, it is 0.055217 ounces per square inch (I have ignored the rims in both cases). The difference might be enough to create a perception that less cheese is used on one pizza than the other. The same disparity will exist for the sauce and cornmeal also.

The only reason the above issue matters is because of the weight factor. That is, for recreation/reverse engineering purposes, the total weight of the pizza (unbaked) has to be a bit more than the value specified in the Papa Gino's nutrition data for that type and size of pizza. We should also be mindful of the possibility that the pizza makers at Papa Gino's may not be making the "regulation" pizzas that the management at PG's believes is the case. Unless the pizza makers weight the cheeses and toppings, the finished pizza can be underweight or overweight. Also, as scott r noted, they may be intentionally cutting back on the amount of cheese and possibly the toppings. This is something that happens quite often, as noted in the PMQ Think Tank post by the poster "perfect pizzas" at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=13127#13127.

Peter




You'll find that some store managers from large pizza chains will cut back on cheese and/or toppings just to "correct" their food costs and get a monthly bonus.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Gino's Recipe
« Reply #79 on: March 29, 2009, 12:04:40 PM »
After considering all of the contributions to the Papa Gino’s clone effort by John, zalicious and scott r, I decided to take a stab at a PG clone in which I would incorporate what I learned from John, zalicious and scott r into my own version, specifically, a pepperoni PG clone pizza. This entailed making a few changes.

The first change was the flour. Originally, I thought to use King Arthur bread flour and supplement it with vital wheat gluten to raise the protein content of the flour blend to around 14%, which is a typical value for a high-gluten flour. As I was contemplating that possibility, I found a post dated October 2008 by a former employee of Papa Gino’s who said that she believed that semolina flour was part of the Papa Gino’s pizza flour blend (see http://recipesfromrestaurants.com/mf/8/19016). Whether this is accurate or not is hard to know but semolina flour has always been part of the Italian culinary tradition and possibly found its way into the “secret” dough formulation that started the pizzeria that was later to become Papa Gino’s. In my case, I decided to use 15% semolina in the flour blend. The rest, 85%, was King Arthur bread flour. Because of the unique hydration characteristics of the semolina flour, I increased the hydration of the dough formulation by almost 1%, from 60% to almost 61%, as noted below. The protein content of the flour blend was about 12.75%.

A second change was to use a pizza screen/pizza stone combination to assemble and bake the pizza. This combination was used to see if I could reduce the shrinkage of a pizza that is normally dressed on a peel and loaded into the oven. In my case, I used a 16” screen and shaped and stretched the skin out to 15” and placed it onto the screen. The 15” size was very convenient because I could shape the skin right up to the ½”-wide metal band at the perimeter of the 16” screen. After the pizza was dressed, the screen was placed onto the pizza stone, which I had placed on the lowest oven rack position of my oven. Because of the use of the screen and the need to raise its temperature before the pizza could start to bake, I decided to bake the pizza at 475 degrees F rather than at 450 degrees F. The stone was preheated for about an hour at the 475 degree F temperature. Once the pizza set up on the stone, which took about 4 minutes, I removed the screen from the oven and let the pizza finish baking directly on the stone. It took about another 3-4 minutes to finish the bake.

In terms of the sauce, cheese and toppings, I used 8.5 ounces (240.98 grams) of the three-cheese blend, 6 ounces (170.1 grams) of pizza sauce, and 3 ounces (85.1 grams) of Hormel pepperoni slices. I apportioned the cheese blend so that 75% was a low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (6.28 ounces, or 180.73 grams), 23% white cheddar cheese (1.96 ounces, or 55.4 grams), 2% grated Romano cheese (0.17 ounces, or 4.82 grams), and about a half-teaspoon of oregano leaves that I crumbled between my fingers. The white cheddar cheese was a NY sharp cheddar cheese. That was not my first choice but I was unable to find a fat-reduced white cheddar cheese in the stores near where I live. The grated Romano cheese came to one tablespoon. All three cheeses and the oregano were put into my food processor and pulsed to dice the mozzarella and cheddar cheeses. The Hormel pepperoni slices were the ones in the packets rather than the pouch. Because those slices are a bit smaller than the slices in the pouch, I used weight rather than number of slices. I also microwaved the pepperoni slices between paper towels for several seconds to render some of the fat. As it turned out, there was still a fair amount of fat rendered during the bake.

The sauce was prepared by pureeing a 28-ounce can of Redpack whole peeled tomatoes in thick puree. I used a hand-held immersion blender to do this, and I completed the sauce by adding about 3/8 teaspoon of freshly ground black pepper, about 3/8 teaspoon of oregano leaves that I had crumbled between my finger, 3/16 teaspoon of garlic powder, and two teaspoons of sugar. I did not drain any water from the sauce. I let the sauce marinate for several hours before using. I believe overnight would have been even better from a flavor enhancement standpoint.

The dough formulation I ended up with using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html was as follows:

KABF/Semolina Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (60.7%):
IDY (0.375%):
Salt (1.5%):
Total (162.575%):
283.19 g  |  9.99 oz | 0.62 lbs
171.9 g  |  6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs
1.06 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.25 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = N/A
* The KABF/Semolina Flour Blend includes 240.7g. (8.49 oz.) KABF and 42.48g. (1.50 oz. ) semolina flour
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The preparation of the PG clone dough was straightforward. I started by combining the KABF, semolina flour and the IDY in a bowl. I then added the formula water, at around 75 degrees F, to the bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. The salt was then stirred into the formula water to dissolve, about 30 seconds. I then gradually added the flour blend to the water, a few tablespoons at a time, and mixed using the flat beater attachment with the mixer at stir speed. Once the bulk of the dough aggregated around the flat beater, which took about 2-3 minutes, plus a bit of manual assist on my part to help incorporate some of the loose flour into the dough ball, I switched to the C-hook. I added the rest of the flour blend and kneaded the dough mass, at speed 2, until it formed a smooth, cohesive dough ball, around 6-7 minutes. It is important to note that using semolina flour has a tendency to produce a dryer dough ball than when only bread flour is used, with a further tendency to collect around the dough hook and to spin with it. So, more human intervention may be needed to get the finished dough to the proper condition. If needed, one should add additional water, about a quarter-teaspoon at a time.

The finished dough temperature in my case was 71.4 degrees F. After trimming back the dough weight to 16 ounces, I hand kneaded it for about 30 seconds, shaped it into a round ball, oiled it lightly with a bit of soybean oil, and placed it into a lidded transparent plastic container. As is my practice, I also placed two poppy seeds at the center of the dough ball spaced apart by one inch. This is the method that is described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. By monitoring the increase in spacing between the two poppy seeds during the fermentation of the dough, I was able to monitor the extent of the expansion of the dough. In my case, the dough just about doubled after two days and six hours of fermentation. This period seemed to me to be consistent with what I imagine a real PG dough ball would be subjected to in a PG store. From the feel and appearance of the dough, I’m sure that it could have lasted even longer, maybe an extra day or two.

When I decided to make the pizza, I removed the dough ball from the refrigerator and let it warm up at room temperature (about 68 degrees F) for about 1 ½ hours. It was then shaped and stretched to size using a healthy amount of cornmeal on the bench. The dough itself was very easy to work with. It had a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility, and I had no problems opening it up to 15”. I was even able to toss the skin with ease. As I assembled the skin on the pizza screen, I weighed the individual ingredients (sauce, cheese blend and pepperoni slices) and the final dressed pizza. Surprisingly, very little of the cornmeal was taken up into the dough—a small fraction of an ounce. The unbaked pizza weight was 958 grams, or 33.79 ounces. After the pizza was done baking, I weighed it again. It was 822 grams, or just under 29 ounces. That represented a loss during baking of about 14%, which I consider to be on the high side. According to the PG nutrition data, a baked (and cooled) 14” pepperoni pizza should weight 34.71 ounces. However, because the finished pizza was around 14.5”, and because the amount of sauce and cheese blend did not seem excessive to me, I believe that the shortfall can be made up for, at least in part, by using a bit more dough, sauce and cheese blend. However, this is just conjecture on my part. I will have to wait to sample a real 14” pepperoni pizza at Papa Gino’s for a more accurate assessment of the relative amounts of everything that goes into the pizza.

The photos below show the finished product. I thought the pizza was very tasty. The crust was chewy and a bit crispy at the rim but soft in the center. As one of the slice photos shows, the rim was not particularly large. This was intentional based on photos of PG pizzas that I had seen and was achieved by shaping the dough skin at the perimeter so that it was raised slightly and narrow. The color of the crust was light, as scott r said it should be. I liked the three-cheese blend although I think I would be inclined to increase the amount of white cheddar cheese in the blend. I will have to await a sample of a real PG pepperoni pizza to determine what other changes might be needed to get the clone pizza closer to the real thing.

Peter


 

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