Author Topic: Glutenboy's crust....  (Read 4212 times)

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Offline Jackitup

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Glutenboy's crust....
« on: March 23, 2009, 09:07:06 AM »
Well, I almost thought of tossing it after a 5-6 day fridge proof. The reason was, I expected it to do something....it did not, nothing except spread out a little in the container. I thought I screwed something up and almost went with an emergency dough and though what the heck, may as well try it out. Even after a few hours at room temp....nothing. Rolled out by hand quite easily and felt very nice, now my hopes are lifting some and company is on the way. Slid into a 500 deg oven and "then" the dough finally moved. Nice oven spring and then LOOK...those little blisters on the edge started sprouting up. I took one cell phone pic and we dove in. A very good pizza and now 2 of my favorites are this one and MWTC's crust, both very good. Still a fan of the cracker crusts as #1, but for NY style, Glutenboys and MWTC's are on my recipe file.
Thanks Guys,
Jon
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 06:18:45 PM »
Thanks for the post. Good to know and what I can expect.   Will give MWTC's crust a try next.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 08:55:50 PM »
Do you mind telling us the exact composition of your dough?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 08:59:39 PM by hotsawce »

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2010, 11:35:24 AM »
Yes sir, GB's is the best in my book so far, all I really make.

I did a recent experiment based on dough ball size and time it lasts based on such. I made a 3 ball batch but then divided it unequally. Instead I did a 420 gram ball, a 350 gram and a 250 gram. The 420 gram blew up in container 1st and was eaten after 4 days. The 350 blew up after 5-6 days and was made then, and the 250 gram didn't move an inch by day 10! I took it out and let it rest for about 3 hours and it won the best taste and consistency test. That said Peter had a very valid point about the dough cooling fast on smaller size balls, and that was its secret to lasting so long.

I also froze a huge herb ball after is sat in the fridge for 2 days. After a couple weeks I let it thaw and rise and it had more bubbles than the same named clown. It was then slathered in garlic oil, loads of fresh cut sauteed cloves, for as garlic shrimp pizza that was finally like the ones I've had in fine parlors over the years.

Back to your pies, great looking blisters! Well done Jon!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:38:05 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 12:04:23 PM »
Jim,

By extrapolation, if you make a bunch of 14-gram dough balls and put them in your refrigerator, you should be able to use them for your next New Year's Eve party to make the following: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg18395.html#msg18395  :-D.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 12:12:53 PM »
 :-D

Those are great! Cool idea, especially for party trays, kids, etc.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 12:14:19 PM »
Good post NYPD. I have notice the same as well. If you keep the dough ball cool, it'll last much longer.  One trick to doing this is to let the dough autolyse in the fridge. It will cool some as you knead it. Once done kneading, I skip the rest period (riposo?) and go straight into deep sleep.  When this dough proofs at room temps it won't have as big a rise on the counter but will perform well in the oven.

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 12:18:06 PM »
Good post NYPD. I have notice the same as well. If you keep the dough ball cool, it'll last much longer.  One trick to doing this is to let the dough autolyse in the fridge. It will cool some as you knead it. Once done kneading, I skip the rest period (riposo?) and go straight into deep sleep.  When this dough proofs at room temps it won't have as big a rise on the counter but will perform well in the oven.

Interesting. The 2 hour covered rest at room temp in the fridge eh? Never would have thought of this as it would seem it needs that room temp time, but if you've had success it's worth a thought.

GB, or Peter, any thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 12:25:13 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 12:38:13 PM »
Do you mind telling us the exact composition of your dough?

This is the thread the recipe came from. I also finally replied to the PM you sent me.
Jon

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66628.html#msg66628
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Offline dms

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 02:30:54 PM »
Interesting. The 2 hour covered rest at room temp in the fridge eh? Never would have thought of this as it would seem it needs that room temp time, but if you've had success it's worth a thought.

GB, or Peter, any thoughts on this?

I put my  dough balls in the fridge immediately after mixing and shaping them.  Works fine. 


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 06:22:42 PM »
Interesting. The 2 hour covered rest at room temp in the fridge eh? Never would have thought of this as it would seem it needs that room temp time, but if you've had success it's worth a thought.

GB, or Peter, any thoughts on this?

Jim,

I assume you are referring to Tran's suggestion that you autolyse the dough in the refrigerator for a while before finishing the dough. If that is the case, then the finished dough temperature should be lower because of the cooler temperature of the autolysed dough. That looks to be a good idea because a dough autolysed at room temperature will generally warm up as it autolyses (I am assuming, of course, that the room temperature is higher than the temperature of the autolysed dough). Absent an autolyse, then you will perhaps want to get the dough into the refrigerator as soon as possible if the objective is to prolong the window of usability of the dough, just as dms noted.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 10:33:05 PM »
Pete, I think he was referring to me skipping the 2 hour riposo (rest period) as noted in GB's original recipe.   I'll be doing 2 pies sometime this weekend.  One with the 2 hour rest at room temps and 1 that went straight into deep sleep, skipping the room temp rest.  I'll post pics to show whether the 2 hour rest period makes a difference or not.  I have skipped the rest period before and it still had good oven spring and made a good pie, but I'll be doing a side by side comparison this weekend.   

Autolysing cold was just something I came up with to negate the heat generated by kneading with a food processor.   When I do a cold autolyse, kneading with the food processor will give me a finishing temp of 72-74 deg.  If I don't do this, then my finishing temps can exceed 85 deg. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 10:57:47 PM »
Tran,

Maybe Jim can clarify what he means. As you will note from Evelyne Slomon's post at Reply 455 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773/topicseen.html#msg28773, riposo apparently is a term that is sometimes also applied to an autolyse rest period (even though I have not seen the riposo term associated with autolyse in anything that I have read). She also discusses the idea of using a period of rest at room temperature prior to cold fermenting dough balls. That is a fermentation time management technique and is quite common among pizza operators, many of whom believe that it is a good idea to kick-start the fermentation of the dough balls before placing them into the refrigerator.

Although I am not a big user of autolyse, I like your idea of refrigerating the autolysed dough before kneading the final dough in a food processor.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 11:32:18 PM »
Peter I'm curious why you are not a fan of autolysing?  Do you find that it isn't necessary or does it give some sort of an undesirable affect?

I see autolysing as a shorten version of no knead techniques.  Apparently you can develop gluten very well without kneading, but rather just folding and stirring of the dough.  I made a great no knead ciabatta bread tonight with using 24hours of fermentation and stirring a couple of times. 

When I use to hand knead, I noticed a difference in how long it took to get the dough to the proper consistency depending on if I did an autolyse or not.  I know a lot has been said about this topic, but I was just curious as to why you don't do it.

I think I've read that you feel it is more of a technique for making breads rather than pizza, but I'll let you refresh my memory.

BTW, with enough or too much yeast (as you know I use to have that problem), a rest period to kick start the dough prior to cold fermentation is not needed.  I have had doughs blow up and go flat in my fridge at 40F.   The cold temp just slows down the yeast but if there's a lot of yeast in the dough, it doesn't need any help. 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 08:39:39 AM by Tranman »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2010, 07:44:50 AM »
Tran,

When I use the term "autolyse", it is a classic autolyse as conceived by Professor Raymond Calvel in which only the flour and water are combined and allowed to rest, without any influence of salt or yeast. Glutenboy's dough preparation, which is patterned at least in part on the methods used by Jeff Varasano, does not utilize autolyse. Glutenboy would have to alter his dough preparation methods to incorporate it.

When I use autolyse, I use it mainly for technical purposes, for example, where I find it advisable to better hydrate a dough, to reduce physical gluten development, or to shorten the total mix time so as to reduce oxidation of the dough and protect the carotenoids. It doesn't matter the type of dough I am trying to make. If I want the benefits of autolyse I use it. In my experience, I have had the best results using autolyse in the context of doughs leavened with natural yeast. When using commercial yeast, such as IDY and ADY, I have found that my finished crusts are too bread-like. When I once noted that result, a member asked me what I meant by "bread-like". My reply can be read at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62715/topicseen.html#msg62715.

You are correct that I view autolyse as being more of a bread dough making technique rather than a pizza dough making technique. Professional pizza operators almost never use autolyse and I would venture to say that, apart from a few artisan pizza makers, they don't even know what autolyse is or how to use it. But that doesn't mean that autolyse can't or shouldn't be used to make pizza dough. We have many members who regularly use it and praise its use and effects. They also incorporate other techniques from the bread side into the pizza realm. However, as I noted in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10160.msg88866/topicseen.html#msg88866, I am somewhat selective about the use of bread dough making methods in my own pizza making. I use such methods when I need them to accomplish a particular result but do not generally make them part of my basic pizza making methods. Having approached pizza from the pizza making side some time ago and not from the bread side, I guess I am more aligned with the pizza side than the bread side. Clearly, I don't shy away from the bread making techniques. I try to understand them and to learn how to use them.

Peter


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 09:23:24 AM »
Tran,

Maybe Jim can clarify what he means.

Yes indeed, and Tran has it right. I speak of the 2 hour covered room temp bulk rise before you divide, oil, and put the balls to sleep. Though this would indeed cause the dough to rise in temp it seems to be a critical part of the process. I would never have thought of doing this at cold temps as it would have a halting affect on the yeast, what little there is needs that time to do something before deep cold slows it to a crawl, all that. I am interested to see results of Tran's side to side comparison.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2010, 09:29:55 AM »
Peter I'm curious why you are not a fan of autolysing?  Do you find that it isn't necessary or does it give some sort of an undesirable affect?

I see autolysing as a shorten version of no knead techniques.  Apparently you can develop gluten very well without kneading, but rather just folding and stirring of the dough.  I made a great no knead ciabatta bread tonight with using 24hours of fermentation and stirring a couple of times. 

When I use to hand knead, I noticed a difference in how long it took to get the dough to the proper consistency depending on if I did an autolyse or not.  I know a lot has been said about this topic, but I was just curious as to why you don't do it.
 

Yeah this is the classsic definition issue, as in what you call autolyse is really just a rest period. No yeast is added yet for true autolyse.

Let's not let that take away from the fact that the deconstruction still takes place during a rest period. This is why when hand kneading, as I'm also quite familiar with, I would love rests too. It makes it softer, far more workable, and easy to finish off to perfect consistency as you mention. So the affects are indeed like kneading without kneading.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2010, 10:04:01 AM »
Jim,

It is true that there will be improved hydration and other benefits from just about any rest period. In fact, if the rest period is short, one might be able to add either a natural yeast or a commercial yeast without experiencing material acidification of the dough during the brief rest period.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2010, 12:35:00 PM »
Hey Peter,  I thought that I read in one of your posts (somewhere - sorry I can't recall exactly), that later Dr. Calvel modified his autolyse technique or said that it was ok to add ADY/IDY upfront as it normally takes some time for it to become activated. 

Jim, so far both doughballs have been cold fermenting for 4 days.  I will either bake tonight or tomorrow night.  Of course the one with the 2 hour rest period before cold fermenting is bigger.  Being that I use clear see through containers, I took a peek at the bottom of the dough balls and noted that BOTH balls have airbubbles in them.  The one that was rested prior has bigger bubbles of course.  I say this just to say that there is some yeast activity going on with the ball that wasn't rested. 

My suspicion is that skipping this rest period will not have an affect on the end pie as long as the cold fermentation period is within a reasonable time frame (say 10 days?).  At some point of cold fermentation (beyond 2 weeks?) there probably is a point of no return.   Skipping this 2 hour rest will just allow you to cold ferment longer with more yeast/starter in your dough.  Even more importantly, if someone wanted a long cold rest, I would suggest trying the cold autolyse technique (letting the dough autolyse in the fridge).

This weekend, I will start yet another test/experiment.   I'll do a side by side comparison of pies with and without the initial autolyse period.  Unless this has been done already, Peter can you point me in the right direction?  I'm curious to see if the autolyse is neede or not, if it's important or not, and if it makes much difference in the end product. 

I plan on making 2 dough balls, and only autolyzing one for 30m at room temperature prior to kneading.  The other will have all the ingredients mixed and kneaded immediately. 

My suspicion is that the autolyse ball will be easier to knead and require less kneading, but both will turn out a very similar pie.  Why?  B/c I suspect that during a relative long rest period of 4-5 days, gluten will continue to develop fully in both balls and equalize any differences that may have been there from the beginning.   

This effect would be (in my mind) similar to what occurs when dough is left undisturbed at room temps for 24 hours (no knead breads/pizza technique).  Only difference is that it's happening much slower at lower temps, but it's still happening. 

Anyways, sorry for taking this thread off topic. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Glutenboy's crust....
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2010, 12:53:21 PM »
Tran,

In his book, Professor Calvel does not put either salt or yeast in with the autolysed dough. I read elsewhere that he came to accept the addition of a starter or commercial yeast, but not salt, if the rest period was short--and would not permit fermentation to commence.

Although someone might want to try Glutenboy's dough recipe with autolyse, which could be a useful experiment, I agree that we are going off the track on this subject. You might start a new thread to discuss the results of your autolyse experiment.

Peter


 

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