Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation  (Read 27242 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2009, 03:47:41 PM »
Norma,

There are trade-offs when using sugar in a NY style dough. Sugar is not an essential ingredient for pizza dough, so when it is used there is usually some reason for doing so. For example, sugar, because it is a hygroscopic ingredient and attracts water, leads to a more tender finished crust. The sugar also helps retain moisture in the crust even while the baked crust cools. Oil also helps produce a more tender crust because it slows down the rate at which moisture in the dough evaporates during baking. The result in both cases is a less crispy crust. The crust might be even more tender and soft--and less crispy--than usual if there is a need to pull the pizzas before the bottom crust overbrowns or burns, as previously discussed. I am not sure how much the sugar increases the openness of a finished crust. However, I have made many pizzas with doughs containing high levels of both sugar and oil (e.g., the Papa John's clones) and the finished crusts were not as open an airy as other types of doughs made without sugar. I found that I could get a more open and airy crust with the Papa John's clone doughs by increasing the hydration but the finished crust and crumb were more breadlike.

If you are using 0.22 pounds of sugar, that is 3.5% of the weight of flour based on the middle formulation at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71978.html#msg71978 (assuming that you did not change the amount of flour, which will have the effect of increasing the total dough weight by the weight of the sugar). The use of 3.5% sugar is sort of on the cusp of being detectable as sweetness in the finished crust. Some people will notice it, and like it or not, and others will not notice its presence at all. If the dough works and your customers like the product, that is fine but you will be sacrificing some crispiness in the finished crust. Maybe sometime you can post a photo of the bottom of a slice right out of the oven so that we can see if the pizza screen is helping cut down on the browning of the bottom of the crust.

In general, I think you are getting more knowledgeable and better at making the pizza dough. Successful pizza operators almost always reach the "aha" point where they know that they have mastered the process of making a good pizza dough. From that point forward, they can produce a reliable dough on a consistent basis. That is also the time that they leave our forum never to return. Their problems then become on how to run a pizza business and make a profit.

I was able to find the Lehmann (and Zeak) video that shows the process of making a commercial pizza dough. It is at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/videos/id_181/title_How-to-Make-Pizza-Dough/. There are also two other parts I believe, which you may find at the same website.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2009, 05:02:18 PM »
John,
I use Pillsbury Balancer Flour.  I forgot to add I use Parmesan cheese and saute in olive oil.  I do have access to Grande cheese though my local pizza man.  I can get it though a wholesaler near me if I get busier.  Do you use Grande cheese?  I have tried Mozzarella Wisconsin mixed with Mozzarella Part Skim 1959 with good results, too.  Of course the Grande cheese is better.  Your oven is amazing.  I will have to look further to see pictures of your pies.
Thanks, Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2009, 05:16:25 PM »
Peter,
I am going back to square one this week and make the pizza without sugar.  The video was very informative and I will watch it more over the weekend.  I will take some pictures on Tuesday so you can see what the bottom is like.  I won't leave this forum after I have learned to make a good dough.  There are so many ideas and many things to learn on here, that and all the posts and information are great.  I can never learn enough.  How many years have you been on this forum, if you don't mind me asking?  In my old business I still was learning after many years of making the caramel popcorn.  There were so many things to try and learn all the time.  Our sugar (which we always used light brown Domino's) wasn't always the same.  The corn syrup wasn't always the same either.  I had to learn to adjust by sight for that. We never used a thermometer and could tell when it was finished by smell and the bubbles.  Maybe eventually I will learn about pizza, too.  I want to go to New York next month and see if I can watch other people making pizza.  There is always something to be learned by watching.  I think it if fun learning and trying to do your best.  Thank you for your help. :)
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2009, 06:19:25 PM »
Norma,

I don't want you to think that I was trying to discourage you from using sugar in your dough. That is why I asked about the effects of the pizza screen on bottom crust coloration. However, I think it is a good idea to try a batch of dough without the sugar to see if that helps in any way. You might also solicit customer feedback, especially the regulars who work in your area, to see if they have a preference or can even tell a difference.

As for my tenure on the forum, I officially became a member on August 6, 2004, at 7:50:08 AM. However, back at that time people were allowed to post as Guests without registering. I believe my first post was as a Guest on July 22, 2004 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4159.html#msg4159. That was a case involving problems a member was having using a defrosted frozen dough ball. My thought at the time was to quit while I was ahead. However, Steve, the owner and administrator of this forum, convinced me to register and become a full-fledged member. The fact that I had heard of Steve from my research on pizza before becoming a member, at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/pizzabas.htm, was the main reason I joined the forum.

Peter




Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2009, 10:50:37 PM »
Peter,
That was interesting how you became a member and Steve convinced you to stay. With your backround in physics and chemistry, I can see why you are so good in diagnosing problems.  I am happy you stayed, because without your help I wouldn't be learning what I know.  I made my dough today the same as Tom made it on the video, with the same forumlation you gave me.  I also used the dough test to see when the dough had enough gluten structure.  The dough seemed so much more workable when I formed the skins.  I had to adjust the water.  I first started the water at 85 degrees and the first batch turned out to be 88 degrees.  Then I put the water in the cooler and after that the dough temperature was 83 and 84 degrees when finished. The real test will be tomorrow when I make the pizzas.  I also liked the way Tom showed on the video how to open the skins.  I am more of a visual person, so that really helped me.  Will let you know, hopefully with pictures how the pizza looks tomorrow.
Thanks, Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2009, 07:27:07 AM »
Peter,
The dough was much more manageable yesterday, thanks to you. :) Here are some pictures of the dough, pizza, and bottom of the crust.  I am still putting the pizza on the screen and now am taking it off the screen about a half a minute before it is finished.  If I don't then the bottom crust isn't finished.  My oven is about 600 degrees.  Do you suggest any changes in the oven temperature?  I can go up or down.  It takes about 4 minutes to finish the pizza.  Yesterday was our best day selling pizzas.  People are still saying our pizza is great. We are getting more repeat customers each week.  I still want to improve in any way I can. With you help I have come a long way in making the pizza better.  The bottom crust is still puzzling me. :o Thanks for all your help!
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2009, 07:35:35 AM »
Peter,
I can seem to post more than one picture, because it says file size to large.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2009, 07:36:55 AM »
Peter,
More pictures

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2009, 07:39:27 AM »
Peter,
Another picture.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2009, 11:15:03 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for the photos. It looks like you are making good progress.

There are many possibilities with your oven depending on whether you use sugar in the dough and whether you use screens. There are also other possibilities, including changing the dough's hydration. Ultimately, you want to achieve the proper relationship between the dough formulation and the oven (your Bakers Pride GP-61) and the bake temperature and time. Before proceeding further, have you decided whether you want to use any sugar in the dough? I assume that your latest dough did not include sugar. Previously you used about 3.5%. What you decide to do with the sugar will dictate whether you need to use screens and also the oven bake temperature and time.

I might add that it is quite common to use screens in a deck oven. There are quite a few pizza operators who do that. Even the description I found for your GP-61 oven at http://www.jeansrestaurantsupply.com/Pizza-Baking-Oven-Gas-2-Deck-2-Chambers-Bakers-Pride-GP-61-P168C457.aspx says that screens can be used. Many operators use screens to adapt their pizzas to their ovens, often to overcome problems that arise when trying to bake the pizzas directly on the stone surface. Others prefer screens because it is easier to train workers to use screens than peels. There are fewer loading mishaps with screens than with peels. Some operators use screens in the reverse manner to that which you use. That is, they will bake a pizza directly on the stone surface and when the bottom starts to get too dark, they will slip a pizza screen under the pizza to lift it off of the stone surface and slow down the browning process. One of the advantages of this method is that the finished crust is likely to have larger holes/voids because the oven spring is better without the screen.

It appears that your oven can get up to 650 degrees F. That is higher than what most operators use, although it might work for a fairly high hydration dough, perhaps something closer to 65%. A more typical range might be 500-525 degrees F, as Tom noted at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=43698#43698. You will also note in that post that Tom talks about getting the top of the pizza done and then using sugar if needed to get the bottom to where you want it to be. Tom will also sometimes suggest using lower bake temperatures and longer bake times to get increased crispiness in the finished crust but that will depend on the dough formulation, whether there is sugar in the dough, and other factors.

As you can see, there are many possibilities that you can consider. Ideally, in your case, you want to find the specific combination of factors that works best for you under your particular circumstances.

Peter

Offline JConk007

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2009, 11:19:53 AM »
Norma,
Could you send me a slice? It really looks tasty  like a great NY Slice.
. So How many Pies per day are you selling now? when you sell the slices do you reheat on stone or just serve from the warmer? Keep up the good work

John
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Offline smarttowers

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2009, 12:10:35 PM »
Norma,
Could you send me a slice? It really looks tasty  like a great NY Slice.
. So How many Pies per day are you selling now? when you sell the slices do you reheat on stone or just serve from the warmer? Keep up the good work

John

Norma Pies look really good, though I thought the last batch with such a puffy dough at the edge looked even better but I like my crust be large :D.

On another note I may have to turn off images when browsing this forum.... its just too hard to see all these wonderful pies and not get hungry.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2009, 02:19:00 PM »
Hi John,
Thanks for saying the pies look tasty.  I am making about 25-38 pies a day.  It all depends on the day.  Each week seems to be getting better.  Since I only make the pies one day a week at our farmer's market, you never know what to prepare.  Only time and how my pizza tastes will tell how business will go.  I have a merchandiser I got really cheap on ebay that keeps the temperature and humidity up.  We ask customers if they want the pizza slices heated on the deck.  Surprisingly most people don't want their pizza really hot.  If you ever get around here stop and I will give you a slice.
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2009, 02:22:39 PM »
Smarttowers,
I also like to look at other people pizza and see how I might be able to improve on mine. I wish I could try each one. The pizzas all look great and give me inspiration.  All the posts also really help me. 
Thanks, Norma

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2009, 02:42:20 PM »
Peter,
I didn't use sugar this week.  I used the original formulation you gave me to start with.  Thanks for the information about my oven.  I got it off ebay and didn't see all the information about it.  I will adjust my temperature back down to 500-525 this coming week and see what happens.  I only have a thermomether that I got from my local restaurant store.  Do you think it would be better to get a grill thermometer to see where my hearth temperature really is? 
I have tried to put the pizza in the oven with a peel and sometimes I have problems.  That is why I went with a screen for now.  First I started out with regular mesh screens, that I seasoned.  I had to many problems with the dough sticking on some places.  After I looked on posts on here, I decided to try some Lloyd hearth disks.  I am using the round disks and only have two.  Do you think the cloud would be a better fit for my pizza?  Are there any posts about which disks are better to use?
I would eventually like to use just the peel to put the pizzas in the oven, but that takes some practice. 
I also wanted to ask you a question about the video you sent me with Zeak and the Dough Doctor.  They are shown using a docker to close the dock.  Although I have a docker, I never used it.  Do you recommend using the docker before putting the pizza on the screen to close the dough?  ???
As you said, there are many possibilities to try in making the dough.  I think I will try one step at a time and see what happens before I go to the next step so I can see the results.  I never knew pizza making could be such fun.  Before I decided to open up this small pizza stand, I never appreciated what went into making a good pizza and how each pizza maker decides what to do with their pizzas. 
Thanks again, Peter
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2009, 03:57:20 PM »
Norma,

If you'd like, you can see the manual for your Bakers Pride GP-61 oven at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Instal%20ops/Counter%20Top/GP-51-61%20Inst-Op%20U4128A%201-08.pdf. Page 7, for example, offers several useful tips, and page 9 has a troubleshooting chart.

I have a pretty good Taylor oven thermometer that gets up to 600 degrees F but I no longer use it since I got an infrared thermometer. For now, a good oven thermometer may be good enough for your purposes.

When I use a pizza screen and have a concern that the dough skin will stick to the screen, I spray the screen with a light oil spray, like a Pam or equivalent spray, before placing the skin on the screen. I rarely have to do this with a dough with a hydration below about 65%. Your dough is at 58%, which shouldn't pose a sticking problem. However, if it is a problem, a disk may be a reasonably good alternative but you may have to test whether the greater mass of the disk impedes bottom crust browning too much.

As you will see at http://www.lloydpans.com/C-1000033/Hearth+Bake+Disks, the "hearth bake" disks you have been using are intended to produce a hearth style bake, including a NY style bake, when using a conveyor oven, not a deck oven. I know that there are some pizza operators who use the regular disks in deck ovens, but most do not because the costs are too high for the volume of disks required. They would rather use the much less costly pizza screens and replace them as they are damaged, get clogged up, etc. I have read about the cloud disks and understand that they don't reveal the typical spots on the bottom of the crust, but, again, they are intended to be used in conveyor ovens. In your case, you might be able to get away with using a standard disk. To find the disk that works best for you, I would call Lloyd Industries and speak to one of their experts on disks who should be able to properly advise you. It doesn't sound like you would need many.

On the matter of docking, I do not use docking unless I am practicing a particular dough recipe that calls for docking, like a cracker style crust or a Papa John's clone crust. If I ever docked a Lehmann NY style dough, I don't remember it. Tom's NY style dough recipe and instructions do not call for docking. Unless your dough becomes overly elastic ("bucky") or you end up with crusts filled with large bubbles and you or your customers find them annoying, I see no need for you to dock the skins.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 04:49:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2009, 05:09:06 PM »
Peter,
I did read the Lloyd's disks are to be used in a conveyor oven.  I had purchased them because I did season the mesh disks and sprayed them with Pam, but they still had some problems with sticking.  Maybe now that my dough is more consistent and manageable I will try the mesh ones again before I got more from Lloyd's. 
Thanks for the information about my oven.  I printed it out.
I will keep you posted on what happens next week.
Norma


Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2009, 10:16:15 AM »
Hi guys

Norma, that picture of the pizza in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8341.0;attach=14657 looks delicious. My taste buds are dancing here. I would love to try and replicate something like it.

Would you mind giving me some info on your recipe, technique and any other information.
Pete-zza if its not too much trouble please also advice.

Much appreciated

Regards
PizzaManic
Regards Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2009, 10:44:10 AM »
Pizza Manic,

Norma will be the best one to tell you the dough formulation she is now using. I believe she started with the middle dough formulation at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71978.html#msg71978, but she may have modified it some since it was posted. Remember, also, that Norma has a commercial mixer and deck oven, which might make it difficult to exactly replicate her pizzas if you are using a home mixer and oven. If you start at the beginning of this thread, you will be able to pretty much track what Norma has done to date. As you will see, she is essentially using a basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation and standard dough preparation and management techniques but in a commercial environment.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2009, 04:34:01 PM »
Hi Pizza Manic and Peter,
Yes, Peter you are right, that is the formula exactly like I am using.  I also watched the video Peter posted and am following that exactly.  at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/videos/id_181/title_How-to-Make-Pizza-Dough/  I don't know how to post this so you can click on it, but maybe Peter can help you.  I was having problems with getting the finished dough at the right temperature.  Also having many other problems, until Peter helped me.  If you read my other posts and Peter's you can see all the problems I was having.  I still am not a professional pizza maker, just learning.  If there are any other questions you want to ask me, I will try and help you. Peter is the professional that can answer many questions. Thanks you for saying you like the looks of my pizza.  I appreciate that. 
Norma

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2009, 09:07:10 AM »
Peter,
I would like to ask your opinion on using a dough sheeter.  I have read Tom Lehmann's posts on using a sheeter and a dough press.  I might be able to purchase one locally for a good price.  It is a two pass sheeter.  Do you think the formulation I am using would create a good pizza with the sheeter?  Also do many pizzeria's use dough sheeters for NY Style pizza?
I wanted to ask you another question if you think Kyrol flour is a good flour for making NY Style pizzas.  I had used that flour in making zeppoles at my funnel cake stand in the past.  I can't make zeppoles now because I don't have a fryer.  I am using the Pillsbury Balancer now because that is what my local supplier that gets all my pizza ingredients has.  Another local flour miller here carries most brands of flour.  In your opinion, what is the best flour for making NY Style pizza.  After I hear from you I can check the prices around here.
Thanks,
Norma

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2009, 11:24:28 AM »
Norma,

On the matter of the sheeter and its use for a NY style dough, I suggest that you pose that question over at the PMQ Think Tank where you are more likely to get a better answer from professionals who may be using sheeters. You might want to note the model of the sheeter you are considering and that you are using a deck oven to bake the pizzas. If you target your question to Tom Lehmann, you will be more likely to catch his attention, especially since you are using his NY style dough formulation.

From what I have read and been told, the most popular high-gluten flour for the NY style appears to be the All Trumps. Kyrol is also a very good high-gluten flour. Some even prefer it over the All Trumps. However, both of these flours are bromated. There is a nonbromated All Trumps, but it may be harder to get. The King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour is also a good flour and is nonbromated, but your foodservice company may not carry it. There are also some very good professional flours with protein at the bread flour level, but I have not had personal experience with them because they are not retail level flours. You could also seek advice on flours if you decide to post your sheeter question at the PMQ Think Tank forum. 

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2009, 06:15:54 PM »
Peter,
Thank you, I did post on PMQ about a sheeter and I asked Tom Lehmann about the flour. 
I looked on the website of C.O. Nolt and Sons and they have All Trumps, King Arthur Sir Gallahad, Sir Lancelot high gluten, King Arthur Special Blend, All Trumps and Kyrol Flour.  I will wait and see if Tom answers me about what the best flour would be to use.  Are there different kinds of All Trumps flour?
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2009, 08:03:02 PM »
Norma,

I know that a sheeter will "work" but the question is what kind of skin and finished crust will you get? You could open up the skin part way with the sheeter and stretch it out by hand the rest of the way to the final desired size, which is a common recommendation from Tom Lehmann, or you could let the skin proof for about an hour to let it rise again to regain the volume that was lost because the dough was run through the sheeter. A few years ago, we had a member, Tim Wurtz, also a pizza operator, who used a sheeter to form skins. He was using a Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation ("Old Faithful") that I would best describe as a "medium thickness" NY style. When I saw the photo of Tim's pizza at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3066.msg26131.html#msg26131, I gently suggested that he might want to try shaping the skins out by hand. As you will see in the succeeding posts, he stopped using the sheeter and had his workers slap out the skins by hand. You can see a photo of a pizza slice made without the sheeter at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3066.msg26153.html#msg26153. If you read more of the thread, you will see that Tim still had some problems but, between Tom and me, we were able to resolve the remaining issues that Tim had with his dough.

With respect to the All Trumps flour, yes, there are a few forms of it. You might want to look at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Espring, where you can get additional details on the AT flours available from General Mills. You can see some of the specs on the King Arthur Sir Gallahad, Sir Lancelot and Special flours at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/BFS-Specs-Customer-Copy.pdf. However, only the Sir Lancelot flour is equivalent protein/gluten-wise to the All Trumps and Kyrol flours. The Kyrol flour is a ConAgra flour (http://www.conagramills.com/our_products/bakery_flours.jsp). If Tom responds to your post at the PMQ Think Tank, he may suggest flours that are a bit lower in protein/gluten than the flours mentioned above, consistent with the protein range (13.5-14%+) given for his NY style dough formulation at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. Some of our members actually prefer using lower protein/gluten flours, specifically, bread flours, to high-gluten flours for the NY style. But, if you are not selling whole pizzas for your customers to take home with them, or delivering whole pizzas to customers, I would say that the high-gluten flours may be your best option for a slices-only operation.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/

EDIT (4/15/14): For the most recent links to the GM All Trumps flours, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/search-results?search=all trumps

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2009, 09:03:45 PM »
Peter,
Thank you, again for your wealth of information.  I will study over all the information you gave me.  It's so many decisions to make with the flour.  I will check on prices, too.  Most are for 50 or 100 lb. bags, but Kyrol has smaller bags.  I think the lady that bought my other stand still has the Kyrol flour.  I will check and if she does, I might make a batch out of it to see what happens.  I will keep you posted.
Norma


 

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