Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation (Read 19044 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #40 on:** May 01, 2009, 10:31:40 PM »

Peter,
I don't know exactly what the room temperature was, but I thought it was around 75 degrees. The last batch of finished dough was 83 degrees and the water temperature I used was 89 degrees. The one deli case was at 40 degrees and the pizza prep cooler was 38 degrees.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #41 on:** May 02, 2009, 10:26:28 AM »

Norma,

Based on your last two posts, I believe that your problem was temperature related rather than a yeast quantity issue. At some point you may want to adjust the amount of yeast but that would be more to lock in your dough formulation. For now, I would rather see you try to solve the problem from the water temperature standpoint.

Before proceeding further, did you remember to cross stack your dough boxes? Failure to do that is a common cause of dough balls exploding in volume.

In the instructions for the Lehmann dough formulation I referenced, Tom talks about achieving a desired finished dough temperature, but he does not say how to do it. However, in this article, http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml, he covers that subject. The calculations in that article are not a perfect solution but if you make the dough from beginning to end without major interruptions, I believe that with experience, and a tweak here or there, you should be able to determine the water temperature to use to achieve the desired finished dough temperature (80-85 degrees F) for each dough batch. In the article, Tom assumes a mixer friction factor of 40 degrees F. From the data you gave in the last couple of posts, it seems that your mixer's friction factor is less than 40. You might want to use your next batch of dough to actually calculate the friction factor of your particular Hobart mixer. To do this, just make a regular dough batch and note the water temperature you use, the room temperature, the flour temperature (which is usually about the same as room temperature if the flour is kept near the mixer), and the finished dough temperature. Then, calculate the friction factor (FF) from this expression:

FF = (3 x actual finished dough temperature) - Room temperature - Flour Temperature - actual Water Temperature used

Using the above expression with the data you provided in your last post, I get FF = (3 x 83) - 75 -75 - 89 = 10 degrees F. That value seems too low to me based on FF values that I have read about before for Hobart mixers. For example, one chart that I saw that is used to calculate water temperatures in the above types of situations uses a FF of 25. In a similar (but abbreviated) chart at page 6 of a General Mills brochure at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/Website%20A49104%20Just%20Crust%20Brochure.pdf, the FF value is 15 degrees F. I think it will be useful for you to nail down the specific FF value for your mixer.

Once you get the FF value, and assuming that you thereafter make the same size dough batches, you should be able to use that FF value to calculate the water temperature needed to achieve the desired finished dough temperature for future dough batches, along the lines discussed in Tom's article. You will also want to observe the behavior of your dough when using, or not using, a bench warm-up time for the dough balls before they go into the cooler so that you can determine whether it will be necessary to make further adjustments. For the next try, you might use the bench warm-up time for the dough balls since you are using only one day of cold fermentation.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13 and 2/4/2013): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20080121222646/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/article.php?story=tom_lehmann; for an updated like to the General Mills chart, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart

norma427 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 02, 2009, 05:58:40 PM »

Peter,
Thank you for all the information. I will study over it this weekend and try the adjustments you have guided me to. I never knew before how critical dough management would be. The FF factor it so critical, too. I need to look over that, too. I will let you know how it goes this week.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #43 on:** May 02, 2009, 06:27:07 PM »

Norma,

I take the finished dough temperature of just about every dough I make, even though it isn't nearly as critical in a home setting as it is in a commercial setting where you need consistency in the nature and quality of the dough. However, knowing the finished dough temperature tells me whether I may have to make water temperature adjustments the next time, especially as the seasons change, and also what I might expect the dough to do during its fermentation. I sometimes also adjust the amount of yeast but that is not something you usually want to do in a commercial setting, especially if you are using workers to make the dough who do not understand the chemistry of yeast and dough. Once you are able to achieve the desired finished dough temperature on a fairly consistent basis, that is when you might look at your dough formulation to see if changes in yeast quantity are needed or desirable. Adjusting the bench warm-up time before putting the dough balls in the cooler is another way of adjusting for temperature changes.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #44 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:20:20 PM »

Peter,
I have been trying different things to improve my dough. The dough seems easier to handle now, but I had one batch this week that had blown out. I think I might have let it sit out to long before forming the skins. The dough is more opened hole in the crust now. My pizza man suggested I try to use sugar in the recipe you gave me. He said to add another time the amount of salt. I have been using that with good results. I am now using dark screens to put my dough on before going to the oven. I can make the pizza on the peel, but feel more confident using the screen. I take the pizza off the peel about a minute before it is finished. I still don't get the sauce exactly right on the pizza because I am rushing to keep up with making the pizzas. I still am not fast, but getting better at stretching the skins. I am using semolina mixed with bench flour to start opening the skins and then use bench flour if needed. What do you think of using semolina mixed with bench flour first? I am working on the water temperature when I make my dough. It is getting more consistant. I have been reading posts from you and Tom and really want to know if the veil test is the best thing to use in finding out if the dough is mixed enough. I will try that this week. I didn't get much time this week to take any pictures, but here is one of a part of pizza. The pizza is finally getting like a New York Style pizza in that it folds in half and is really thin. I will keep working on the pizza and let you know how it goes. Thanks, again for your help.
Norma

smarttowers · « **Reply #45 on:** May 22, 2009, 12:07:14 AM »

Norma I have to say if that pizza was sitting out where I could see it I'd have to buy me at least a slice. That looks DELICIOUS.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #46 on:** May 22, 2009, 09:32:28 AM »

Norma,

I am not sure what you mean by the sentence "He said to add another time the amount of salt." Do you mean doubling the amount of salt or using the same amount of sugar by percent as the salt? Once you clarify the above statement, I can answer more fully.

On the matter of adding sugar to the dough formulation, Tom Lehmann does not ordinarily suggest doing that for a dough that is to be baked on a stone surface, such as used in a deck oven. The reason is that the sugar can cause the bottom of the pizza crust to brown prematurely, and even burn. Pulling the pizza from the oven once the bottom of the crust starts to turn dark might leave the top of the pizza underbaked. Tom does suggest using sugar in the dough formulation if the dough is to be held for more than about two to three days before using. In that case, the sugar is used to insure that the yeast is adequately fed and also to contribute to crust color development. In your case, since you are building your pizzas on pizza screens and baking the pizzas (on the screens) directly on the stone and then "decking" the pizzas onto the stone toward the end of the bake (one minute before the end), you might be able to get away with including some sugar in the dough. Did your pizza man say why you should add sugar to the dough?

With respect to the "veil" test you mentioned, I do not use that for the doughs that I make using my standard home KitchenAid mixer. I have learned through experience how to tell when the dough is "just right". The test that Tom prescribes is perhaps better suited to the much higher-quality doughs made using commercial mixers. I believe there is a video somewhere in which Tom shows this test. If you want me to try to find the video, let me know.

I'm not sure I fully understand your questions about the semolina/flour combination but I don't see any problems with using a semolina/flour blend on the bench when opening up the dough balls. That is what Papa John's does except that they also use some vegetable (soybean) oil in their blend (I believe the oil is used to keep the flours from going airborne too much and messing up their air-conditioning system). With semolina flour, you will also have to periodically clean out your oven to get rid of any burned semolina.

I agree with smarttowers that your pizza looks delicious. Have you been getting a good reception from the consumers of your pizzas?

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #47 on:** May 22, 2009, 10:18:17 AM »

Norma,

Further to my last post, to read more about using sugar in pizza dough, see the Tom Lehmann posts at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=30032#30032 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26890#26890. I think the latter thread is one of the best I have read anywhere on the subject of the role of sugar in a pizza dough.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #48 on:** May 22, 2009, 12:57:27 PM »

Peter and Smartowers,
Thanks for saying the pizza looks delicious. People are very receptive to our pizza. They are all saying it is very good. I watch people taste it and then they say, they really like the sauce and thin crust. Stand holders keep coming back each week to buy the pizza. They really like it, too. Before my pizza stand there was only frozen pizza at the market, so I guess it is a lot better than that. Each week our sales are going up. That is a good thing, unless I can't keep up making the pizzas. I still have the dough pro, which I am not using. I wanted to be able to open the skins by hand. I might have to use it in the future if I don't get fast enough. I have someone else putting the topping on and putting the pizza in and out of the oven. School will soon be over here and then many school children and tourists will come.
My pizza man told me to use twice the amount of sugar that I do of salt. So using .11 lbs of salt, I am now using .22 lb of sugar. I am still using the 10 lb. batches of dough. I now am up to 5 mixes or 50 lb. for a day. I can understand Tom's and your reasonings why not to use sugar, but I have to ask my pizza man why he uses sugar. I will the next time I see him. It seemed to make the dough more airy. Either it was that or now I am getting the formulation better. My pizza man has family that comes over from Italy to help him sometimes and I know he has worked at many pizza places before starting his own business. I will see what he has to say. Is it I am getting the formulation better now that I am getting the rim of the crust to be more airy? Even the rim now tastes great by itself. I still have much to learn and will keep on trying to get my pizza better.
Yes, I would like to see the video of the veil test that Tom did, if you can find it. Since I am new to making pizza, maybe that could help me know when my dough is mixed enough. When my mixer mixes the dough it usually doesn't leave any residue in the bowl. I just can't really understand when to stop mixing. I usually guess.
I am using a sauce combination of pizza sauce and 7/11 ground tomatoes. To that I add onions, garlic, fresh basil, fresh parsley, fresh oregano, kosher salt, sugar, ground pepper, crushed red peppers, oregano, and Italian seasoning. I put the first four ingredients in the food processor, and then saute them. The mix the rest into it with added water. Here is a picture of the 7/11 and the ground tomatoes I use.
Thanks, again for your help.
Norma

JConk007 · « **Reply #49 on:** May 22, 2009, 01:57:23 PM »

Norma,
Great choice of sauce ingredients, I love those Stanislaus products.
Are you able to get Grande cheese? and what type of flour are you using or did you mention that already somewher.
Tha pies sure are looking good!
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #50 on:** May 22, 2009, 03:47:41 PM »

Norma,

There are trade-offs when using sugar in a NY style dough. Sugar is not an essential ingredient for pizza dough, so when it is used there is usually some reason for doing so. For example, sugar, because it is a hygroscopic ingredient and attracts water, leads to a more tender finished crust. The sugar also helps retain moisture in the crust even while the baked crust cools. Oil also helps produce a more tender crust because it slows down the rate at which moisture in the dough evaporates during baking. The result in both cases is a less crispy crust. The crust might be even more tender and soft--and less crispy--than usual if there is a need to pull the pizzas before the bottom crust overbrowns or burns, as previously discussed. I am not sure how much the sugar increases the openness of a finished crust. However, I have made many pizzas with doughs containing high levels of both sugar and oil (e.g., the Papa John's clones) and the finished crusts were not as open an airy as other types of doughs made without sugar. I found that I could get a more open and airy crust with the Papa John's clone doughs by increasing the hydration but the finished crust and crumb were more breadlike.

If you are using 0.22 pounds of sugar, that is 3.5% of the weight of flour based on the middle formulation at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71978.html#msg71978 (assuming that you did not change the amount of flour, which will have the effect of increasing the total dough weight by the weight of the sugar). The use of 3.5% sugar is sort of on the cusp of being detectable as sweetness in the finished crust. Some people will notice it, and like it or not, and others will not notice its presence at all. If the dough works and your customers like the product, that is fine but you will be sacrificing some crispiness in the finished crust. Maybe sometime you can post a photo of the bottom of a slice right out of the oven so that we can see if the pizza screen is helping cut down on the browning of the bottom of the crust.

In general, I think you are getting more knowledgeable and better at making the pizza dough. Successful pizza operators almost always reach the "aha" point where they know that they have mastered the process of making a good pizza dough. From that point forward, they can produce a reliable dough on a consistent basis. That is also the time that they leave our forum never to return. Their problems then become on how to run a pizza business and make a profit.

I was able to find the Lehmann (and Zeak) video that shows the process of making a commercial pizza dough. It is at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/videos/id_181/title_How-to-Make-Pizza-Dough/. There are also two other parts I believe, which you may find at the same website.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 22, 2009, 05:02:18 PM »

John,
I use Pillsbury Balancer Flour. I forgot to add I use Parmesan cheese and saute in olive oil. I do have access to Grande cheese though my local pizza man. I can get it though a wholesaler near me if I get busier. Do you use Grande cheese? I have tried Mozzarella Wisconsin mixed with Mozzarella Part Skim 1959 with good results, too. Of course the Grande cheese is better. Your oven is amazing. I will have to look further to see pictures of your pies.
Thanks, Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #52 on:** May 22, 2009, 05:16:25 PM »

Peter,
I am going back to square one this week and make the pizza without sugar. The video was very informative and I will watch it more over the weekend. I will take some pictures on Tuesday so you can see what the bottom is like. I won't leave this forum after I have learned to make a good dough. There are so many ideas and many things to learn on here, that and all the posts and information are great. I can never learn enough. How many years have you been on this forum, if you don't mind me asking? In my old business I still was learning after many years of making the caramel popcorn. There were so many things to try and learn all the time. Our sugar (which we always used light brown Domino's) wasn't always the same. The corn syrup wasn't always the same either. I had to learn to adjust by sight for that. We never used a thermometer and could tell when it was finished by smell and the bubbles. Maybe eventually I will learn about pizza, too. I want to go to New York next month and see if I can watch other people making pizza. There is always something to be learned by watching. I think it if fun learning and trying to do your best. Thank you for your help.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #53 on:** May 22, 2009, 06:19:25 PM »

Norma,

I don't want you to think that I was trying to discourage you from using sugar in your dough. That is why I asked about the effects of the pizza screen on bottom crust coloration. However, I think it is a good idea to try a batch of dough without the sugar to see if that helps in any way. You might also solicit customer feedback, especially the regulars who work in your area, to see if they have a preference or can even tell a difference.

As for my tenure on the forum, I officially became a member on August 6, 2004, at 7:50:08 AM. However, back at that time people were allowed to post as Guests without registering. I believe my first post was as a Guest on July 22, 2004 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4159.html#msg4159. That was a case involving problems a member was having using a defrosted frozen dough ball. My thought at the time was to quit while I was ahead. However, Steve, the owner and administrator of this forum, convinced me to register and become a full-fledged member. The fact that I had heard of Steve from my research on pizza before becoming a member, at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/pizzabas.htm, was the main reason I joined the forum.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #54 on:** May 25, 2009, 10:50:37 PM »

Peter,
That was interesting how you became a member and Steve convinced you to stay. With your backround in physics and chemistry, I can see why you are so good in diagnosing problems. I am happy you stayed, because without your help I wouldn't be learning what I know. I made my dough today the same as Tom made it on the video, with the same forumlation you gave me. I also used the dough test to see when the dough had enough gluten structure. The dough seemed so much more workable when I formed the skins. I had to adjust the water. I first started the water at 85 degrees and the first batch turned out to be 88 degrees. Then I put the water in the cooler and after that the dough temperature was 83 and 84 degrees when finished. The real test will be tomorrow when I make the pizzas. I also liked the way Tom showed on the video how to open the skins. I am more of a visual person, so that really helped me. Will let you know, hopefully with pictures how the pizza looks tomorrow.
Thanks, Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #55 on:** May 27, 2009, 07:27:07 AM »

Peter,
The dough was much more manageable yesterday, thanks to you.

Here are some pictures of the dough, pizza, and bottom of the crust. I am still putting the pizza on the screen and now am taking it off the screen about a half a minute before it is finished. If I don't then the bottom crust isn't finished. My oven is about 600 degrees. Do you suggest any changes in the oven temperature? I can go up or down. It takes about 4 minutes to finish the pizza. Yesterday was our best day selling pizzas. People are still saying our pizza is great. We are getting more repeat customers each week. I still want to improve in any way I can. With you help I have come a long way in making the pizza better. The bottom crust is still puzzling me.

Thanks for all your help!
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #56 on:** May 27, 2009, 07:35:35 AM »

Peter,
I can seem to post more than one picture, because it says file size to large.

norma427 · « **Reply #57 on:** May 27, 2009, 07:36:55 AM »

Peter,
More pictures

norma427 · « **Reply #58 on:** May 27, 2009, 07:39:27 AM »

Peter,
Another picture.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #59 on:** May 27, 2009, 11:15:03 AM »

Norma,

Thank you for the photos. It looks like you are making good progress.

There are many possibilities with your oven depending on whether you use sugar in the dough and whether you use screens. There are also other possibilities, including changing the dough's hydration. Ultimately, you want to achieve the proper relationship between the dough formulation and the oven (your Bakers Pride GP-61) and the bake temperature and time. Before proceeding further, have you decided whether you want to use any sugar in the dough? I assume that your latest dough did not include sugar. Previously you used about 3.5%. What you decide to do with the sugar will dictate whether you need to use screens and also the oven bake temperature and time.

I might add that it is quite common to use screens in a deck oven. There are quite a few pizza operators who do that. Even the description I found for your GP-61 oven at http://www.jeansrestaurantsupply.com/Pizza-Baking-Oven-Gas-2-Deck-2-Chambers-Bakers-Pride-GP-61-P168C457.aspx says that screens can be used. Many operators use screens to adapt their pizzas to their ovens, often to overcome problems that arise when trying to bake the pizzas directly on the stone surface. Others prefer screens because it is easier to train workers to use screens than peels. There are fewer loading mishaps with screens than with peels. Some operators use screens in the reverse manner to that which you use. That is, they will bake a pizza directly on the stone surface and when the bottom starts to get too dark, they will slip a pizza screen under the pizza to lift it off of the stone surface and slow down the browning process. One of the advantages of this method is that the finished crust is likely to have larger holes/voids because the oven spring is better without the screen.

It appears that your oven can get up to 650 degrees F. That is higher than what most operators use, although it might work for a fairly high hydration dough, perhaps something closer to 65%. A more typical range might be 500-525 degrees F, as Tom noted at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=43698#43698. You will also note in that post that Tom talks about getting the top of the pizza done and then using sugar if needed to get the bottom to where you want it to be. Tom will also sometimes suggest using lower bake temperatures and longer bake times to get increased crispiness in the finished crust but that will depend on the dough formulation, whether there is sugar in the dough, and other factors.

As you can see, there are many possibilities that you can consider. Ideally, in your case, you want to find the specific combination of factors that works best for you under your particular circumstances.

Peter