Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation  (Read 26757 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2009, 08:48:13 AM »
Peter,
I was wondering if you ever studied how the PH in water effects pizza.  I am using triple filtered water I purchase at our local store for .25 a gallon.  I have a PH meter from Cole Palmer that I used in making my salsas before.  I just was thinking if different water types have an effect on the finished dough.  I read on posts here that some people are set on some kinds of water to make their pizza.  I know the water in New York City is very good and you can just drink it out of the tap.  Do you think that has anything to do with their great pizza?
Thanks,
Norma


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2009, 10:07:54 AM »
Norma,

I am not a chemist, but that hasn't deterred me from trying to learn and to post on the subject. See, for example, Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,853.msg7771/topicseen.html#msg7771, Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1795.msg17557/topicseen.html#msg17557, Replies 23 and 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,571.msg5936/topicseen.html#msg5936, and Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3457.msg29422/topicseen.html#msg29422. As you can see from the above posts, there are differences of opinion on the effects of different types and sources of water on dough performance. No doubt some of it is for marketing purposes/hype, much as pizza operators frequently proclaim their sauces and doughs to be trade secrets that they dare not divulge.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2009, 06:05:46 PM »
Peter,
Thanks for the information about the water.  You must be right because many people can't tell the difference in the kinds of water in the dough, although the water should be good. 
Tom answered me back and said for me to try All Trumps since it is available to me.  I contacted the local flour company today and the prices vary from All Trumps at 17.00 for a 50 lb. bag, Sir Lancelot 19.60 a 50 lb. bag and Kyrol in 18.00 a 50 lb. bag.  I will get a bag of All Trumps this week since both you and Tom think it is good.  Also since it is cheaper.  :-D  I will try that next week.
Will keep you posted.
Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2009, 07:19:36 PM »
Norma,

I saw your post on the flour at the PMQ Think Tank but I did not see a reply from Tom. Sometimes he will recommend a weaker flour if you plan to sell or deliver whole pizzas. You might also check out this thread at the PMQTT: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=23389#23389.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 08:32:01 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2009, 10:34:33 PM »
Peter,
I had asked Tom a private question and then thought I should post the question on Think Tank.  Tom did respond to my question privately.  I don't know how to post the answer on here if that is what you want me to do, so other members can see.  I did look at the thread you showed me and I see there are many flours that I don't know about.  For right now, I will try the All Trumps and see what happens. My local flour company said most pizza people around here use Pillsbury Balancer.  I would just like to try to see if there is any difference in the finished crust and how the dough handles.
Thanks, Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2009, 08:43:13 AM »
Norma,

It's up to you whether to post the reply here. I usually use the cursor to highlight the text to be copied, simultaneously hit the Ctrl-C keys after highlighting, and then simultaneously hit the Ctrl-V keys where I want to enter the copied material.

I saw that you got several replies at the PMQTT on the sheeter/press, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=7373&sid=586555bd4e6a0208e88e608b727f9228.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 08:02:07 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2009, 05:02:30 PM »
Norma,

This afternoon I stumbled across a post by George Mills at the PMQTT concerning a thermometer (a Cooper model) that can be used to measure the temperature of the stones in a deck oven. The post is at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49821#49821.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2009, 11:54:42 PM »
Peter,
I did look at the posts on PMQ Think Tank tonight. I saw Tom talked about a dough relaxer.  I will keep that information in case I get to busy to open all the skins by hand and need to try my dough pro, again.  I followed your directions about the regular mesh screens and hurray they worked today.  I guess it was the way I was mixing the dough before that I had problems with them.  The dough was really manageable today.  I will try to post pictures tomorrow or Thursday of the pizza. 
Thanks for your help with the thermometer.  I will look at my restaurant store this week and see if they have that model.  I have a Clark's Restaurant store near me.  I need to get some other items there anyway.  I did turn my oven down to 500-525 degrees.  I don't really know if that is the temperature of the hearth, but maybe soon will find out if I get a new thermometer. 
I wanted to let you know that things went well today.  I had a customer that bought one slice of pizza and then came back and bought a whole pie.  He talked to me and said he live 10 miles from New York City and my pizza was as good as any he had eaten in New York City.  Thanks to you and Tom, at least I must be improving. 
I can't thank you enough for all the information you have given me.  :) I will keep trying to improve my pizza.
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2009, 06:44:28 AM »
Root's Farmer's Market


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2009, 06:46:19 AM »
Picture

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2009, 06:47:31 AM »
picture

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2009, 06:48:21 AM »
Picture

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2009, 06:49:31 AM »
picture, sorry my camera isn't too good.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2009, 06:50:13 AM »
picture

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2009, 06:52:58 AM »
Just had to add the pizza man  :D

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2009, 10:39:07 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for the photos. It looks like you can get rid of the "newbie" handle.

What you might want to try sometime is a two-day dough, especially for the hand shaped/stretched skins. Unless the skins are too stretchy, you should get some more flavor in the finished crust.

Peter

Offline smarttowers

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 120
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2009, 12:43:45 PM »
Pies look great Norma. How much you charging for the slices? They look huge.


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2009, 02:12:36 PM »
Peter,
I still think consider myself a newbie, because I still have so much to learn.  I would like to try a two day fermentation, but the market isn't open for me to go in and work on weekends.  I would have to go on Friday and that would make it a four day fermentation.  Is there anything like that?   ???
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2009, 02:14:27 PM »
Smarttowers,
The pie is a 16" cut into 6 pieces.  I charge 1.75 for cheese and 2.25 for toppings.
Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2009, 02:58:45 PM »
I would like to try a two day fermentation, but the market isn't open for me to go in and work on weekends.  I would have to go on Friday and that would make it a four day fermentation.  Is there anything like that?   ???

Norma,

Yes, there is something like that but it is rare in a commercial setting, and it would mean having to make changes to the dough formulation and dough management. For example, you could cut back on the yeast and use colder water. Maybe sometime you can try a small test batch in addition to your regular dough production just to see if it is doable and not too risky for a commercial operation.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2009, 06:49:14 PM »
Peter,
Okay, I will try next Friday to make a small test batch, maybe about 5 lbs. Since I have the equipment it is worth a try. This Friday is busy.  I will get the All Trumps this week and try that out for next Tuesday.  I want to see how the All Trumps performs compared to the Pillsbury Balancer first.  ::)
Thanks,
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2009, 04:21:33 PM »
Peter,
I wrote Tom and posted a question on Think Tank. Tom said the way to go with this formulation is to not cut down on the yeast, but to use a water temperature of about 40 to 50 degrees.  Does this make sense to you?  Also, do you know other people that have tried a four day fermentation on Tom's recipe?
Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2009, 05:12:33 PM »
Norma,

I have done it all three ways: 1) less yeast, 2) colder water, and 3) less yeast and colder water. And I already use a finished dough temperature of 70-75 degrees F because my refrigerator is not as efficient as a commercial cooler. I have essentially two versions of the Lehmann dough formulation, one for the cold weather and one for the warm weather. The basic difference is the amount of yeast, although I still try to get a finished dough temperature in the range of 70-75 degrees F when I am going for a few days of cold fermentation. Professionals don't like to change the yeast amount because it means having to train workers who make the dough how to do that without messing things up. It's easier to tell them to use colder water.

I have made so many Lehmann NY style doughs that I am sure that at some point I have made them with four days of cold fermentation. And I am sure that there are many other members who have done so also. I have made Lehmann NY style doughs that were cold fermented for over three weeks. I suspect that Tom doesn't want you to mess around too much with your basic dough formulation. Adjusting the water temperature gets around that. Even if you run into problems, I think they should be easily solved.

As an example of a pizza that was made from a Lehmann NY style dough after fifteen days of cold fermentation, see Reply 110 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42160.html#msg42160.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 06:25:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24235
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2009, 09:20:02 PM »
Peter,
Yes, that was another addition Tom said, too about the finished dough temperature. 70-75 degrees
I was amazed at how you experimented with the NY Style Pizza on long fermentation with and without vinegar.  I haven't tasted any pizza with natural starters (which is something I want to try someday and also taste other peoples pizza made with natural starters).  I found my mouth watering when you described how the crumb had a texture and stretchiness similar to using natural starters. The pictures looked great, too.  It really made me hungry. I have never made or tasted artisan bread, so I wouldn't know what to look for in the taste.  I am excited to try my first test batch using the four day fermentation next Friday to see what happens with a four day fermentation.  I haven't read all the threads for that topic, but will in the next few days.  At least I am not a big commercial  operation and I can try things and make changes if I want to.  I would like someday to have my customers say wow, that is a great tasting crust.
I have purchased the All Trumps flour today and the grill thermometer, so I will have a couple of new things to experiment with this coming week.
Thanks for all your time in helping me and others understand what dedication you have to pizza making and helping others to find great pizza.
Will keep you posted next week.
Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2009, 09:51:33 PM »
Norma,

In light of your plans to make a four-day cold fermented Lehmann NY style dough, I thought that you might want to have Tom's view on typical longevities of such doughs. His view was given in response to a poster at the PMQ Think Tank who once asked Tom the following:

Tom,

Out of curiosity, what is the longest useful life of a cold fermented dough that you have ever seen or heard of, either in a laboratory setting (e.g., at AIB) or in the field? And under normal circumstances, how long can one expect to see a cold fermented dough last and be usable without added sugar to the dough formulation?


The answer that Tom gave was as follows:

Without added sugar 2-days is the norm, and three is pushing it a bit. With 2% added sugar, you can easily go to three days, and with a little luck push it to four. The longest I've seen is 7-days, but the performance of the dough left an awful lot to be desired (finished pizzas over the course of the seven days had everything from a very bubbly edge, to a normal edge, to a knife edge (essentially no rise). The eating texture ranged from tough, chewy to limp and almost soggy....Not exactly what I would want to have representing name or business, but then it wasn't my name or business.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Peter


 

pizzapan