Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation  (Read 26739 times)

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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #125 on: June 18, 2009, 09:57:25 AM »
Im my last 3 batches I have added the all the ingredients and kneaded the dough with the exception of the yeast. Later in the process, say the last 5-10 min of the kneading I add the yeast (im using flieshmans bread machine yeast, which is an IDY).

I have found that this gives me an extra 1.5-2 days of ferment time. The downside is the dough is not usable for the first 1.5-2 days. In doing this your basically just delaying the point in which the ferm process gets really active.

I started experimenting with this just to see what the effects were. Recently Pete and I had a little discussion about it and Pete had done similar experiments with similar outcomes. More can be read about it in this thread.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8737.msg75651.html#msg75651

But as pete is suggested you can also control the process with water temp. For me lately I have just been using room temp water but controlling the process by when I add the yeast and how much yeast I add.

Of course im only makeing 4 balls at a time and they are only 14in pies. If your making 16 or 18in balls this will require more experimenting on your part as a larger ball will not cool as quick and may indeed require a lower water temp.

 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #126 on: June 18, 2009, 10:02:58 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for clarifying the dough ball weight you are using. I was looking at the dough formulation you posted in Reply 121. At some point, you might want to use the thickness factor approach with the dough calculating tool to revise the dough formulation so that it is based on the desired number of 17-ounce dough balls you would like to make. As a further point of claification, are you making 15" pizzas or 16" pizzas with the 17-ounce dough balls?

I think I would try using 2 1/2 hours of cross stacking. From my reading over the years about commercial pizza dough production and management, one of the biggest problem areas in terms of dough "blowing" is incorrect or insufficient cross stacking. Just be sure to wipe the dough balls with oil.

The dough I made recently in the hot weather here in Texas was similar to a Lehmann dough but with a lot of oil. I was hand kneading the dough so I had to use cold water (around 50 degrees F) to keep the dough from warming up too fast because of the high room temperature. The math equations I mentioned to you earlier don't apply to hand kneading of dough. Also, cold water warms up pretty fast as soon as you bring it out to room temperature and let it sit there as you start to make the dough.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2009, 12:17:27 PM »
ThunderStik,
I had read that thread before about you mixing dough for 50 minutes and basically over kneading to see what the results would be.  That was a very interesting experiment!  :)  Your finished pizzas look great!  Did you ever get to try hydration of higher than 55%?
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #128 on: June 18, 2009, 12:23:10 PM »
Peter,
I will recalculate that formula for the other dough I made last week and change it to 17 ounces.  I might try that again next week if this weeks trial batch doesn't get the results I would like to see.
I will cross-stack for 2 1/2 hours tomorrow.  I have to measure the screens tomorrow, but think they are 15". 
What is the difference in the finished Lehmann pizza with higher amount of oil?  ???
Thank for for all your help.
Norma

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #129 on: June 18, 2009, 01:36:39 PM »
Norma,
          I have not had the chance to do the next batch yet but will very soon. The kneading was the experiment, not the yeast. It is pretty well confirmed that it works.

As I have not read this whole thread (yet) but I would say whatever Pete has to say far outweighs anything I have to say about the subject.

If your trying to get get your balls to ferment without bubbling up though, judging from the picture the colder water (possibly ice) and late yeast addition should get you where you want to be.

I dont know why I didnt even think about it but if thats the way your storing your dough then it will take a longer time for them to cool down and slow the ferm process.

Remember it doesnt take long for those yeast to become active in their preferred environment (warm/moist).  So the faster you can get them cool the quicker your going to slow down the process. While I have zero experience in a commercial situation or anything of the like I would say a possibility would be to cool the balls seperately  then put them in your boxes or something to that effect. I am not familiar with cross stacking or any of that type of thing or your environment for that matter. But I do know air is a poor conductor and acts as an insulator in those boxes.

Also I would think when you have that many balls put that close together that are warm already I would think they could act as a solid mass because of the lack of air circulation around them. Now you enclose the room temp air in the box full of warm dough and your probably looking at a good bit of time before the dough can cool down and try to slow the train that has already begun rolling down the tracks.

Im sure the "cross stacking" Pete is talking about is referring to this issue. It does seem like it would be a real issue though as you start to stack these warm boxes up and around each other. Of course this is only made worse by the fact the ferm process produces heat anyway.

Wow im rambling now.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2009, 02:26:37 PM »
What is the difference in the finished Lehmann pizza with higher amount of oil?  ???

Norma,

As you know, the Lehmann dough formulation you have been using calls for 1% oil. That is not a lot of oil but I have discovered that when I omit it I can tell. The prime benefit of oil at low levels is the flavor it contributes to the finished crust, especially if it is olive oil. Tom Lehmann discussed the role of oil in his NY style dough recipe in an exchange I had with him on the subject, as I noted at Reply 700 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg61557.html#msg61557.

Once you increase the amount of oil, and especially once you get above about 4%, the oil has other functions besides flavor. It helps lubricate the gluten strands and make the dough easier to knead. It will also increase the "wetness" of the dough, sometimes to the point where it becomes advisable to lower the hydration of the dough to offset some of the "wetness" added by the oil. I learned a lot about the relationship between oil and hydration when I made all of the Papa John's clone doughs with around 7% oil. I found that I had to use around 56-57% hydration with the oil at 7% to get the best results.

The oil also promotes increased volume of the dough and the height of the finished crust, as Tom recently noted at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50068#p50068. Oil at high levels will also result in a more tender crust. This is because the oil prevents some of the moisture in the dough from evaporating during baking. High sugar levels will also contribute to a more tender crust. That is because sugar is hygroscopic and attracts water. It will continue to attract moisture even after the pizza has been baked and cools down. The combination of oil and sugar will also retard staling of the crust. This is usually not a big issue with pizzas which are eaten fairly promptly but it could be an issue with bread that you would like to hold for a few days. Finally, oil contributes to mouthfeel.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 01:40:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #131 on: June 18, 2009, 02:39:35 PM »
ThunderStik,
Yes, I saw your experiment worked.  I enjoyed seeing how you did that.
I also have 0 experience in a commercial operation.  That is why I ask so many questions.  The dough with the bubbles is a trial dough, not the dough I usually use.  I couldn't fit commercial pans in my deli case or pizza prep refrigerator because I have a small (8'x13") pizza stand at a one day farmer's market.  That is why I am using the other pans.  I might need to have another method for storing the dough. Time will tell.
I do cross-stacking (which means I stack my pans crosswise to let the air in the deli case cool them down faster, then after so long put them on top of one another, then put a lid on them. 
Thank you for your suggestions and no you weren't rambling on.  :)
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #132 on: June 18, 2009, 03:27:26 PM »
Peter,
Wow...that was a lot of information going from thread to thread.  Thank you for explaining what the extra oil does.  I really liked following the threads to the on about Tom Lehmann not know how to make artisan like pizza until SliceofSlomon got together with him.  It was all about making a commercial pizza with different ingredients not really needed to make pizza, until that day...
I also read about the sea salt and how SliceofSlomon thinks it's the best for his pizza.  Interesting  ::)
Will keep you posted
Thanks, Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #133 on: June 18, 2009, 03:40:51 PM »
Norma,

I believe the SLICEofSLOMON (Evelyne Slomon) post you are referring to is Reply 606 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054.html#msg41054. That is an interesting post.

There are some pizza operators who use sea salt but they tend to be the artisanal pizza operators. Most just use common table salt. Even Kosher salt is uncommon among professional pizza operators.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2009, 07:33:38 PM »
Peter,
Yes, that is the interesting post and reply.  Thanks for adding it for me.  I think many newbies would be interested in reading that post and reply.
I was also surprised you just told me most pizza operators only use common salt.  I have found that Kosher salt, even in my everyday cooking adds to the taste of food.
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #135 on: June 18, 2009, 07:36:15 PM »
Norma,

Are you using Kosher salt for your pizza dough and, if so, what brand is it?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #136 on: June 18, 2009, 08:19:57 PM »
Peter,
Yes, I am using Kosher salt.  It is Morton's.
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #137 on: June 18, 2009, 08:45:42 PM »
Yes, I am using Kosher salt.  It is Morton's.

Norma,

When you came up with the dough formulation to make your dough did you use the Morton's Kosher salt entry in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html ?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #138 on: June 18, 2009, 08:55:28 PM »
Peter,
Yes, I did use that for my trial dough formulations, but not the Tom Lehmann recipe you directed me to that I have been using since I started.  Should I go back and change that recipe to use Morton's salt?  I don't know if you remember or not, but I couldn't use that calculator then because my computer had viruses and I had to have a new install of Windows XP to have my computer work.  Now I can use the calculator.
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #139 on: June 18, 2009, 09:20:21 PM »
Should I go back and change that recipe to use Morton's salt?

Norma,

I think that would be a good idea. If you used the weight measurements for salt, you would have been OK. But if you used the volume measurements, you would have been off because the different salts have different weights per teaspoon.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #140 on: June 18, 2009, 09:31:54 PM »
Peter,
Okay, I will look again and see what I did.  I will recalculate and see if there is a difference. 
Thank you,
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #141 on: June 24, 2009, 07:12:16 AM »
Forum Members,
I have tried Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza under American Style.  If anyone is interested you can see the results I achieved under his post and thread.  Thanks to everyone on this forum for helping me understand how to make pizza.  I am still learning more each week and enjoying the journey.  Hopefully if the future I will be able to try all the formulas to make pizza on this forum.  I especially liked Peter's clone of Papa John's Clone Pizza.  The higher oil and longer fermentation really contributed to the taste of the crust.  I am going to try a higher hydration in the future to see what results I will get.
Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #142 on: June 29, 2009, 08:10:50 AM »
Hi all,
I helped my daughter move in Queens, New York yesterday.  We stopped at this pizza shop.  The NY style pizza was great.  I watched the man make the dough and Stromboli.  I think I am going to try the round individual pans for holding dough.  They are the metal type.  Does anyone know where you could find these at a decent price for a 16" dough?
Norma 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #143 on: June 29, 2009, 09:11:25 AM »
Norma,

What you are referring to is often called dough proofing/retarding pans. They are stackable and often used where storage space is at a premium or not readily configurable and/or for small volume applications. Just about all restaurant supply places sell them, as you will see if you do a basic Google search. For example, see http://www.foodservicedirect.com/index.cfm/S/311/N/1647/Dough-Retarding-and-Proofing-Pans.htm. For some possible options, see also http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies/Dough-Pans/Deluxe-Anodized-Aluminum-Dough-Pans. Most restaurant supply places discount the prices shown at the Amnow website.

You will have to do some comparison shopping to find the best combination of price and service. You might also want to post your question at the PMQTT forum. Often the members there have found the best prices and service.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #144 on: June 29, 2009, 09:47:13 AM »
Peter,
Thank you for the information.  :)  I will look at the information you gave me and post a question at the PMQ Think Tank.  I think the dough balls would cool faster for me and in my situation, it would also save space. As I was watching the man make pizza yesterday, he just pulled about 8 pans from the cooler and then just started using them.  The pizza turned out well.  No time to let the dough come to room temperature.  The dough hadn't risen very much.  It still will take me a long time to study all the information on making pizzas.  I will go to New York next month and try a real brick oven pizza.  Probably more than one.
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #145 on: July 01, 2009, 09:10:18 AM »
Peter,
When I made my dough on Monday, I decided to try a lower IDY percent.  I used .18% instead of .30%.  Referring to Tom Lehmann's posts on using IDY, he said you can use anywhere between .05%-.75% IDY in trying to manage the fermentation.  He also said 1.0% is about the highest you can go in adding IDY.  I kept the rest of my dough management the same, except I kept my pizza prep refrigerator temperature at 36 degrees and my deli case temperature at 39 degrees.  My pizza dough yesterday hadn't risen quite as much.  The temperature of the flour, room temp, humidity, water temperature were all almost the same as before.  The dough turned out well.  The dough didn't rise as much.  When making my pizza the dough managed well.  This is a picture of the pizza.
I did post a question on PMQ Think Tank about dough/retarder, dough proofer pans.  Tom Lehmann answered me back and said to try bread bags. Tom also gave me the size to buy. He said they can work out well.  I asked him when using the bags if moisture won't collect in the bags if you just oil the balls and put them into bags.  I will let you know what his reply is.  That would be a good idea to try, if it works for me instead of the dough/retarder, dough/proofer pans.  Do you ever use bags to store your dough?
I was wondering how pizza makers can really decide on what percent of IDY to use or do you just have to experiment?  ???
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #146 on: July 01, 2009, 09:57:42 AM »
Norma,

If you are referring to Tom Lehmann's recent PMQTT posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50583#50583, the 0.5 to 0.75% figure he is talking about there is with respect to compressed (fresh) yeast, not IDY. The usual recommended usage of IDY from a conversion standpoint is one-third the weight of the compressed yeast (or one-third the baker's percent of the compressed yeast). If you were referring to some other Lehmann posts, can you link me to them? Also, how many days did you use for your last dough batch?

Tom replied this morning to your last post on the use of bread bags, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50630#50630. I have played around in the past with all kinds of bags, including zip-type storage bags, regular storage bags without zip-type closures (a recent example can be seen at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8685.msg75983.html#msg75983), and reused supermarket bread bags, which is what Tom often recommends to home pizza makers. I used the supermarket bread bags just as Tom described, and had no problems doing so. When I read Tom's reply this morning, I wondered whether the bread bags would constrict the expansion of the dough balls in some unwanted manner. However, I once ran an experiment in which I vacuum sealed a dough ball into a plastic storage bag (using my FoodSaver unit) and the dough still managed to expand, albeit mostly laterally (which it would also have done in some other kind of container). There was a small amount of moisture that condensed on the inner surface of the bag after the long fermentation time but it was not excessive or problematic. You can see some photos of the dough ball in the bag at Reply 118 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42774.html#msg42774. I assume that if the dough balls in the bread bags are using normal amounts of yeast there should be no problem of the expanding doughs forcing the bags open because of excessive expansion.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:54:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #147 on: July 01, 2009, 02:30:07 PM »
Peter,
Yes, you were right about the yeast.  I had just read Tom Lehmann's post you referred me to and didn't actually let it sink in about the difference in the kinds of yeast.  Since I am using IDY, how much can that vary in percentage and still be able to make a decent dough for use the next day?  I did decrease the IDY and made the batch on Monday and used it Tuesday, so it was only a one day fermentation.  It seemed to work well for me.  I was just experimenting. 
I did read Tom Lehmann's post about the bags and am wondering about the expansion, too.  I didn't ask that question, but will try some of my dough in the bags this coming Monday.
Thank you for your help.
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #148 on: July 01, 2009, 03:17:53 PM »
Since I am using IDY, how much can that vary in percentage and still be able to make a decent dough for use the next day?  I did decrease the IDY and made the batch on Monday and used it Tuesday, so it was only a one day fermentation.  It seemed to work well for me.  I was just experimenting. 

Norma,

That is a hard question to answer with any precision. It is because of all the factors and variables that can affect a dough's performance. These factors and variables include all of the temperatures that we have talked about before (room temperature, flour temperature, mixer friction factor, water temperature, and finished dough temperature), the proper stacking and downstacking of the dough balls (or using trays or bread flour bags to store the dough balls), and the refrigerator/cooler temperatures. The basic IDY range for Tom's NY style dough recipe is about 0.17-0.25%. When I absolutely have to have the dough usable the next day, I tend to err on the side of using a bit more yeast. But I also take into account the temperature at the particular time of year. If you used 0.18% for a one-day dough, that suggests that it is warm or getting warmer where you are in Pennsylvania. You might want to stick with that value for the time being. At the same time, I would try to keep the finished dough temperature at the same value as you have been using. If the dough balls ferment differently using the bread bags, which may allow the dough balls to cool down faster than when using dough boxes or proofing/retarding pans, you may find that you will have to make more adjustments.

Were you (and your customers) satisfied with the one-day crusts using the IDY at 0.18%?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #149 on: July 01, 2009, 06:14:25 PM »
Peter,
Thank you for your explanations.  Since Tom's NY Style dough recipe calls for about 0.17-0.25% and I was using .30% before, I was a little on the high side.  My finished dough temperature is between 80-85 degrees.
Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (161.05%):
   4224.77 g  |  149.02 oz | 9.31 lbs
2450.37 g  |  86.43 oz | 5.4 lbs
12.67 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.21 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
73.93 g | 2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs | 4.42 tbsp | 0.28 cups
42.25 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.39 tsp | 3.13 tbsp
6804 g | 240 oz | 15 lbs | TF = N/A
Yes, it is a little warmer here, but not like most spring and summers.  It has been a cool spring and summer so far.
My customers, the regular standholders and I didn't seem to taste any difference in the taste of the finished crust. 
I will keep in mind all the things you have taught me and all the posts I have read on this forum. 
I have started to make garlic knots, cheesy bread sticks, and pizza pinwheels out of the  same dough.  They can be served with the homemade Mariana sauce I make.  People are very receptive to these. Next week I will try to remember to take pictures of them.  I use the fresh herbs from my garden in making these.
Norma