Author Topic: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation  (Read 22718 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #160 on: August 05, 2009, 07:45:43 PM »
ThunderStik,
Thank you,
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #161 on: August 11, 2009, 10:58:22 PM »
I just wanted to let you know that Tom's Lehmann's NY Style pizza recipe I have been using can be frozen and re-thawed.  I had some dough left last week and I gave 2 dough balls to a customer that kept telling me how good the pizza dough was.  She didn't freeze it and used it after two days. That meant it was used 4 days after I made the dough. I had thought since my dough doesn't contain any sugar, that after that length of time the dough wouldn't have been good. She bought 4 dough balls from me today.  I will see what she has to say next week. I took some dough balls home and froze them to see what would happen.  I was worried that the freezer would kill the yeast.  I defrosted the dough today and the pizza was great.  The dough preformed well and you couldn't tell I had frozen it.  I have a freezer that is not frost-free, where I kept it stored since last Tuesday.  I really don't know if that had some effect on the dough or not.  I bought two more dough balls home today and will try again next week to see if I have the same results.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #162 on: August 11, 2009, 11:34:43 PM »
Norma,

Tom Lehmann normally advocates modifying a dough formulation if it is to be used to make a frozen dough. He also is not a fan of static freezing--the type of freezing that occurs in a typical refrigerator freezer compartment. I have long been intrigued with the chemistry of pizza dough that is intentionally made to be frozen. So, I am likely from time to time to conduct an experiment to see if I can improve frozen pizza doughs to be used in a home environment in a typical home refrigerator freezer compartment. One of my earliest experiments with a frozen version of the Lehmann dough is described in Reply 272 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428. My most recent experiment along the same lines was described in Reply 721 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg62457/topicseen.html#msg62457. As you can see, I tried to incorporate the additional knowledge I gained between the times I made the two pizzas. I think one of the key factors to getting good results with a frozen dough, at whatever stage it is frozen, is not to freeze it for too long. More than once I discovered a forgotten frozen dough ball in my freezer that had been frozen for far longer than the recommended time and I thought it might be salvageable. Invariably, the dough ball after defrosting was lifeless and essentially useless. Apparently the cycling of my static freezer over a prolonged period of time was not a good thing for the dough balls.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #163 on: August 12, 2009, 12:23:09 AM »
Peter,
Thank you for sharing your experiments with freezing dough.  I see you found success after your experiments. Your pizzas looked great. I can see that using a static refrigerator/freezer can have it's drawbacks in freezing and thawing. I don't know if by using my old freezer that isn't static, if that had something to do with my success with the Tom Lehmann's recipe, being frozen. My old freezer is the kind you have to defrost.  I know it isn't anything like flash freezing.  I will see what happens with my dough that is in the freezer now.  If I can get consistent results, that would be good.  I just took my dough balls out of the freezer this morning and then set them on the counter for 3 hours to thaw, then used them in the usual way. Since it was hot and humid today, it didn't take long for the dough to thaw. Will post more results next week.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #164 on: August 12, 2009, 08:14:40 AM »
Norma,

The big, high-volume producers of frozen dough balls, like Rich's, use expensive flash or cryogenic freezing systems. Even then, the useful life of the dough balls is only a few days after defrosting. You will perhaps enjoy reading this PMQ Think Tank thread on freezing pizza dough, including Tom Lehmann's advice, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=20450&sid=71bc790533c34bdfdce9aa9e2244157e#20450.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #165 on: August 12, 2009, 08:23:19 AM »
There was an interesting article recently at the BakingBusiness.com website on improvements in the equipment used to freeze dough products. For those who are interested, I have copied and pasted the article below:

Frozen Solid
Continued innovation by manufacturers of freezing systems assists bakeries with running equipment longer between defrosts.

(Bakingbusiness.com, July 01, 2009)
by Shane Whitaker

Whether you sell your baked foods frozen or fresh, blast freezers can be an excellent way to extend the shelf life of your products. Freezing products also can make them easier to handle, and it preserves their flavor, texture and nutritional attributes well beyond that of fresh baked foods.

Bakeries generally use spiral conveyors in large insulated rooms to automate the process of lowering temperatures of products below the freezing point; however, companies also may choose to use blast cells or inline conveyor belt freezers. Freezers feature either mechanical or cryogenic freezing systems.

Mechanical freezers consist of compressors, condensers with internally recirulated refrigerants, heat exchangers (coils) and fans. Refrigerants such as Freon, Freon replacements and ammonia are commonly used in the condensers. Cryogenic freezing, on the other hand, employs liquefied nitrogen or carbon dioxide that is sprayed directly onto the product and into the product areas to affect heat transfer. Cryogenic systems are generally used for products that must shed their sensible and latent heat as quickly as possible to maintain product and structural integrity.

Although mechanical freezers typically require a greater upfront cost and need greater space than cryogenic freezers, they are more widely used because the cost of gases used in cryogenic freezing can be prohibitive to large bakery operations. Cryogenic freezers, however, can work as much as 10 to 30 times as fast as mechanical blast freezers. Nevertheless, manufacturers of mechanical blast freezers have increased production cycles of their freezers to assist bakeries.

INCREASING PRODUCTION. One of the main issues bakeries encounter with mechanical blast freezers is the need to defrost the refrigeration coils. Because coils are the coldest material within the blast freezer, moisture is attracted to the coil fins and tubes, according to Peter White, president of I.J. White Systems, Farmingdale, NY.

This moisture forms into starfrost and ice on the coil surfaces and adversely affects heat transfer. This ice buildup causes the blast freezer to run less efficiently to the point where the blast freezer cannot hold air temperature, and product discharges not cold enough. The production line must stop the blast freezer to defrost, and this defrost cycle takes approximaltey an hour and can occur as frequently as every eight hours. This translates into losing three hours of production every day and 18 hours during a 6-day workweek, according to Mr. White.

I.J. White recently introduced a Continuous Production System (CPS) that incorporates Ultra Series Thermal-Pak coils, which are unique independent evaporator coils. These coils offer optimal heat transfer at low operating costs. With CPS, the coils are engineered to defrost sequentially around the clock, so there is no need to stop production for defrost, according to Mr. White. A bakery running a blast freezer with CPS is able to run 24/7 for weeks at a time without losing production time.

The company also offers an Extended Production System (EPS), which is designed to control moist air that infiltrates blast freezing systems. Blast freezers with EPS are capable of running for three to four days and sometimes longer between defrost cycles, according to Mr. White.

A blast freezer with EPS uses I.J. White’s Automated Pressurization Systems (APS) to balance the pressure differential at the infeed and discharge openings of blast freezers. By balancing the pressure at these areas, APS allows less moist air to enter the blast freezer, and it is this moisture in the air that contributes to the frost buildup on blast freezers’ refrigeration coils.

In one plant that I.J. White installed, APS increased production efficiency by 32%. The low infeed opening continually had cold air spilling onto the plant floor making it difficult for the employees to work in the area, and the opening and spiral framework were also continually building up with ice and snow. When the snow melts, the water can drip down onto the product, he pointed out. APS solved all of these problems for the bakery, according to Mr. White.

He pointed out that existing blast freezers can be retrofitted with APS, a computer-controlled and -modulated system that lengthens the time needed between defrosts. Plants will save energy and increase production time, Mr. White said.

Mechanical blast freezers generally operate with temperatures between 0° to -40°F, depending on what the baker wants to do with their product, according to Guy Irwin, vice-president, engineering, G&F Systems, Roosevelt, NY. Some bakers only want to crust freeze the product so they can handle it during bulk packaging, so they don’t need -40°F air. "The colder the air, the more expensive the process because you have to use more horsepower to compress the gas to get that cool," he explained.

The control technologies used on freezers are also continuing to evolve, according to Mr. Irwin. Bakeries nowadays are installing computer-based control technologies, as opposed to relay-based control systems. The newer technologies allow companies to have greater process control. "Basically, they make the equipment more efficient to operate," he said. "They have diagnostics attached to them so you can track what is going on and the freezing curve of product as well as maintenance intervals."

CRYOGENIC OPTION. The liquefied gases used in cryogenic systems are known as cryogens, and their boiling points are so low — liquid nitrogen evaporates at -321°F and carbon dioxide’s boiling point is -109°F — that it can result in greater quality product retention by minimizing starch retrogradation and minimizing ice crystal sizes within the dough or crumb structure. Because of this, cryogenic freezing is often used for high-end baked foods.

Linde, Inc., Murray Hill, NJ, sells the equipment and gases for cryogenic systems. Linde is a relatively new name in the North American market, having merged with The BOC Group, several years back.

In October 2007, Linde introduced a new line in the US, known as Cryoline, and these systems offer improved sanitation and controls the cryogenic freezing, according to the company. The tunnel freezers feature airflow patterns that make them up to 40% more efficient than comparable cryogenic systems.

CLEAN FOCUS. Linde has concentrated on easy-to-clean freezers, without any flat surfaces internally or externally for water to pool during sanitation. Cryoline freezers also open completely for internal access during sanitation.

I.J. White’s Ultra Series blast freezers are also available with Total Cleaning Systems to rinse, foam and wash the blast freezers from top to bottom. This automates the task of sanitation and greatly reduces the labor and man hours needed to clean a blast freezer, according to Mr. White.

New freezers designs should assist bakeries in increasing production runs, as defrosting coils could become a thing of the past.


Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #166 on: August 12, 2009, 09:38:19 AM »
Peter,
Thank you for the article that shows how they are making improvements in freezing dough from BakingBusiness.com. 
I did enjoy reading the thread on PMQ about freezing dough.  The thread from Tom Lehmann says that freezing the dough for more than 10 days isn't good.  In the thread Tom said that by using some additives could help with freezing dough.  One of the additives was potassium bromate.  Is that the same bromate that is in the All Trumps I use?  I can see now since I only froze the dough for one week, how it still came out okay.  I still have some dough left over from last week and will try that next week in addition to the dough I froze yesterday. 
Here is the one part of the thread from Tom Lehmann that I seemed to get the most from.  I copied and pasted it.
PostPost subject: Re: can you freeze pizza dough?    Posted: 08 Aug 2007 14:02     Reply to topic Reply with quote
Raw pizza dough, or even bread and soft bun doughs can be frozen in the average home or store freezer for up to 10 days, after that, it deteriorates pretty fast. For this reason we normally say that it will keep for a full week as a week is easier to keep track of than 10 days. The type of deterioration that the dough will experience is a lack of consistent rising properties, so the dough may not rise as well as expected and as a result it will not bake-out as well either. Here's a tip that might help those of you making frozen dough for your customers, or for those of you with customers requesting dough that they will take home to freeze; Suggest to your customer that they freeze the dough for up to a week, but not to exceed 10 days. To use the dough, lightly oil the dough ball and thaw it out inside of a plastic bag in the refrigerator overnight, then remove it from the bag and knead the dough for a couple minutes, shape it back into a dough ball and place it into a lightly oiled bowl, cover to prevent drying and allow to set at room temperature for about 90 minutes, or until the dough can be easily shaped to fit the pizza pan, then proceed with dressing the pizza skin and bake as normal. The kneading of the dough ball after thawing helps to restore some of the vitality back to the dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Peter, Thank you for the information.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #167 on: August 12, 2009, 10:10:44 AM »
One of the additives was potassium bromate.  Is that the same bromate that is in the All Trumps I use?

Norma,

Yes, it is.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2009, 11:10:22 PM »
I did use some of my frozen dough, that I had made last week and the week before, today.  It seemed fine.  The first dough that was frozen was now two weeks old.  The crust tasted the same.  The only difference I noticed was that the dough wasn't as easy to handle, but did well. 
I saved two doughs from two weeks ago that I had at market today and re frozed it again tonight.  I also have four doughs in the freezer from two weeks ago. 
I will try them again next week and see what happens.  It was hot and humid today at my stand.  It didn't seem to have any effect on any of my dough.  The crusts all looked the same.  I still am wondering when the yeast will die.  When I had it on my bench for defrosting it did get tiny bubbles in the dough.  I guess I will eventually see what happens.
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2009, 11:06:40 PM »
Here are the two pizzas, cheesy bread sticks, and tomato olive focaccia I made today with the dough that was frozen from the last two weeks.  They turned out okay.  I did find out the dough I had made three weeks ago and froze didn't work out well.  It was too fermented and the dough didn't handle well.  I can see why Tom Lehmann and Peter don't advice keeping the dough frozen for very long over 10 days.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #170 on: August 26, 2009, 07:12:16 PM »
Norma,

I see from some of your posts at the PMQ Think Tank that you have been trying a lot of other things to supplement your pizza slice business, including selling entire pizzas, dough balls, dessert pizzas, wings, etc. Have any of these ancillary items gained traction and, if so, which ones?

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #171 on: August 26, 2009, 10:46:21 PM »
Peter,
Yes, I have been trying new things with the formulation you helped me with.  The cheesy bread sticks are the best seller.  We make them, garlic knots, cinnamon twists, and now the focaccia.  I have more experimenting to do with the focaccia.  Tom Lehmann directed me to a recipe for foccacia, but I haven't tried it as of this week.
The whole pizzas are doing well, too.  It all depends on how hot it is at market.  Since it isn't air-conditioned, some days people just want slices at market and take home the cheesy bread sticks, cinnamon twists and garlic knots.  I am making Stromboli and mini Stromboli, also.  I also will be starting mini calzones.
The wings aren't going too well right now.  I have stopped making them until the weather gets cooler. 
PMQ Think Tank is a very good place to ask questions.  So many people are willing to help you there. 
Many people are saying how great the dough is.  Thank you so much for helping me with the formulation and helping me to achieve dough management. I wouldn't have been able to make pizza if it wasn't for this forum.  There are just so many things to learn.
I still want to do more experimenting with your Papa John's clone, with higher hydration.  It will probably be when winter comes.  I am just trying to sell what people are looking for.  Since I am the still new to the pizza business, it will take me time to figure out what people really want and how many times people keep coming back.  I do have many regular customers.  People ask if I have a regular pizza place where they could come and buy my pizza.  I know at my age, I could never do that.  I just enjoy making pizza, the smell of the dough and the smell that comes from the oven.
Thanks again, Peter.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #172 on: August 27, 2009, 08:43:25 PM »
Norma,

I think it is time that you take a well deserved bow yourself for what you have done on your own. It looks like you no longer need the training wheels :chef:. Kudos to you.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #173 on: August 28, 2009, 08:47:34 PM »
+1
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza Need Help with Dough Formulation
« Reply #174 on: August 28, 2009, 11:13:15 PM »
ThunderStik and Peter,
Thank you very much.  I still have many experiments to do and will continue learning.  Since there is so much to learn about pizza, I can never get finished learning.
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!