Author Topic: Pete, I have a few questions.  (Read 1742 times)

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Offline ThunderStik

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Pete, I have a few questions.
« on: May 13, 2009, 01:26:28 PM »
I have got to the point that I am having repeatable success in making pies. I think I am now at the point where i can experiment with minor additions and subtractions and be able to actually see/taste/feel the results if you know what I'm getting at.

I was just reading a piece in the big Lehman dough thread and and came across this post by SliceofSloman.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28856.html#msg28856

I don't know who she is but I do realize she is "somebody" in the pizza world. Anyway in that post she describes a piece of her fermentation process.
"So I combined the best of both methods: I used the lower protein flour, gave it a long first bulk raise at room temp, refrigerated it in bulk another 12 hours then scaled and formed, and the dough was ready to use 8-12 hours later."

So this is a "double rise" ? Have you experimented with this?


I don't really qualify what I have been doing as a double as I usually ferment in the fridge and pull it out to use once at room temp. While it does rise a bit on its way up to room temp its not a full second rise like she describes.

What say you?

 
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 02:26:47 PM »
ThunderStik,

Evelyne Slomon is an industry veteran, a consultant, teacher, writer, restaurant owner (serving pizza also), a dough artisan, and the author of the pizza cookbook The Pizza Book....Everything There Is to Know About the World's Greatest Pie. She also had enormous exposure to, and friendships with, just about all of the old pizza masters of the New York style.

The post you referenced was mainly historical in nature since the thread itself was, and still is, devoted mainly to a dough formulation (the "Lehmann NY-style dough formulation") that was developed principally for commercial pizza operations in which the dough balls are placed in the cooler (refrigerator) right after the bulk dough has been divided, scaled and put into dough boxes or trays. So, for the most part, most of my experiments with the Lehmann dough formulation have tended to conform to that protocol. However, it is a common practice to use a room-temperature fermentation before placing the dough balls in the cooler. This is done to accelerate the fermentation process so that the dough balls can be used sooner than if they went into the cooler right after scaling. Evelyne discusses this possibility, and others as well, at Reply 455 in the same Lehmann thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773.html#msg28773.

I did eventually experiment with a NY style dough along the classic lines described by Evelyne. I reported on my results at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg39803/topicseen.html#msg39803. As you will see from that post, one of the experiments I conducted used all-purpose flour (along with a high hydration) and the dough was subjected to a room-temperature fermentation before going into the refrigerator, for next day use. This is a method that is quite popular among professionals and amateur pizza makers alike. Many of our members use that method. It's limitation is that it precludes using very long cold fermentation times, for example, beyond about two days, maybe three.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2009, 05:38:51 PM »
So would you classify this method as a double or triple fermentation?
"So I combined the best of both methods: I used the lower protein flour, gave it a long first bulk raise at room temp, refrigerated it in bulk another 12 hours then scaled and formed, and the dough was ready to use 8-12 hours later."

1) Bulk at room temp.
2) Bulk at cooler temp
3) 8-12 hours, is this room temp? Cooler?

To me this looks like 3 as opposed to my first post which stated 2.


Also why are the "bubbles" frowned upon?  Im going after the the bubbles as they are my favorite part of the pie. Those are the slices I go for, with that thin airy slightly charred flavor uuuuuummmmmm. ;D
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 05:43:15 PM by ThunderStik »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2009, 06:38:13 PM »
ThunderStik,

I don't view and count different fermentation stages as one might do with a bread dough. I could do that, but it doesn't tell me anything that I would find useful or helpful. Each phase has a purpose in the overall scheme and that is all that matters to me. I am interested in the overall window, from the time the dough is made to the point the dough is used. That is important because it tells me how much yeast I am likely to need for the complete cycle based on the various temperatures used for the different phases.

I believe the final twelve hours in the example Evelyne gave is a cold fermentation period.

Individuals generally like bubbles in the crust, and usually the bigger the better, but most pizza operators don't. It means that workers have to reach into the oven to pop the bubbles with bubble poppers. That's a pain, especially if there are a lot of pizzas moving through the oven or if there is a long queue of pizzas waiting to go into the oven. In extreme cases, the bubbles can be so large and profuse that the toppings can literally shift on the pizza and create an unsightly appearance and maybe render the pizza unsaleable. To minimize bubbling, operators use the dough when warm and/or use dough dockers. It also helps for the dough to have a lot of fermentation time.

Peter


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 12:20:54 AM »
I just made up a new batch of balls (weds night) using the same Lehman recipe that I have used the last 2 times (63% hyd,honey instead of sugar). So i am familiar with this recipe, but I changed a few things in the process.

1) I used Fleishmans "bread machine" yeast as opposed to the ADY I usuallyy use.

2) Sifted the flour.

3) Used a "true" autolyse.

First the sifted flour made a huge difference. I had no idea that it would make such a difference. At the end of the knead I would swear I was working with a 60% hydration or less. I attribute this to the sifted flour. I was not nearly as wet as normal.

Also because of the yeast change and because I added all the other ingredients after the autolyse towards the back half of the knead the yeast didnt have a chance "activate" as normal with the ady.

Because of this it took a whole day before the yeast started wake up. Right now im coming up on day 4 and the balls still look very good and I plan on cooking tomorrow (sunday). I was gonna do it  today as I kida worried about it but had some stuff come up and get in the way.

Can you tell the effects of a dough that has the autolyse and the flour sifted in the finished crust?

Where in Texas are you located?
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 11:22:51 AM »
ThunderStik,

Your dough appears to be behaving according to form. Adding the yeast (the Fleischmann's bread machine yeast is actually a form of IDY) late in the process will usually slow things down, especially if you keep the dough on the cool side, as by using cold water to begin with. The late addition of IDY is something I played around with quite a bit at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. It is also possible, but far less known, to use ADY in dry form to extend the window of fermentation/usability of a dough. I described such an application, in the context of a Papa John's clone dough, at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. One has to be careful when using ADY dry, however, to take into account that at some point down the line the ADY will have to be rehydrated just as with any form of yeast. As you can see from the post referenced, it can take many days for the rehydration of ADY to take place such that the dough starts to rise in a noticeable fashion. The use of the ADY dry would be a very good method to use if one wants to extend the window of usability out to several days.

As with most things in pizza making, there is little that has not been tried somewhere at some time. That also applies to sifting flour. I used to occasionally read where some member did this, but I paid little attention to it because I knew that all flour that comes from a miller was already sifted. I believe that I was reawakened to the possibility of sifting flour when I saw November do it. Knowing him, I knew that there must have been a good reason to do it--one grounded in good science. He discussed the notion of sifting flour (and an autolyse-like method as well) at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33942.html#msg33942. See also November's feelings on sifting flour in the first couple of sentences in his post at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572/topicseen.html#msg42572. In my experience, sifting the flour improves the hydration of the flour and makes for a more robust, higher-quality dough. However, I cannot honestly say that I have been able to detect the effects of using sifted flour in the finished crust. I routinely jump between using and not using sifted flour just to see if I notice differences and, apart from improved hydration when using sifted flour, I can't say that I can tell its use just from the finished crust.

Autolyse is a trickier subject. Except when I have used a natural starter/preferment, my experience is that the finished crust is too bread-like. One member asked me a while back what I meant by "bread-like". You can see my response at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62715/topicseen.html#msg62715. Semantics can sometimes get in the way of trying to explain differences, but I can tell you that when eating a crust I can clearly distinguish between bread-like and non-bread-like. What may be more useful to you is to quote from Professor Raymond Calvel's book A Taste of Bread. At page 31, it says:

Autolysis is the slow-speed premixing of the flour and water in a recipe (excluding all the other ingredients), followed by a rest period. The other ingredients are added when mixing is recommenced [...]. During experiments in 1974, Professor Calvel discovered that the rest period improves the links between starch, gluten, and water, and notably improves the extensibility of the dough. As a result, when mixing is restarted, the dough forms a mass and reaches a smooth state more quickly. Autolysis reduces the total mixing time (and therefore the dough's oxidation) by approximately 15%, facilitates the molding of unbaked loaves, and produces bread with more volume, better cell structure, and a more supple crumb. Although the use of autolysis is advantageous in the production of most types of bread, including regular French bread, white pan sandwich bread and sweet bread doughs, it is especially valuable in the production of natural levain leavened breads.

Elsewhere in his book, Prof. Calvel talked about the finished crumb being "creamy colored" and with an "agreeable taste" and with a "pleasant mouthfeel". However, the most detailed description of autolyse in the book is the material quoted above. To the best of my knowledge, Prof. Calvel never talked about autolysis in the context of pizza dough, only bread dough, croissants and brioche and perhaps a few other yeasted doughs. Maybe it was the scientist in him, but he never gushed about autolyse and its benefits. It was all a matter-of-fact approach.

Peter




Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2009, 01:51:03 PM »
I did experience a better quality of dough as in it took on a nice feel and smooth sheen to it that I had not experienced before in my doughs.

I guess I was wondering will the dough still "act" like a 63% dough or will it act like a dough of lower percentage? Because at the time i made them I sure could tell the difference but will that difference be non existant in the final product?

Do you bleed burnt orange? Im a Crimson and Cream kinda guy myself.  ;D
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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2009, 02:09:26 PM »
ThunderStik,

I have found that I can "squeeze" more water into a flour that has been sifted. I usually can tell by feel that the dough is more highly hydrated but the dough does not feel as wet as one made with flour that was not sifted.

I forgot to mention that I live outside of Dallas. I would say that I am more of a burnt orange fan.

Peter

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2009, 02:55:44 PM »
ThunderStik,

I also forgot to mention that if you are using honey, that will contribute some additional hydration to the dough because honey includes about 17% water (by weight). So, the effect on final hydration will depend on how much honey you use. Also, honey improves the rheology (flow characteristics) of the dough. Honey also behaves differently in dough than sucrose (table sugar), so that the final results may be somewhat different, as I noted in Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312/topicseen.html#msg66312. Moreover, there are different kinds of honey with different amounts of enzymes, as noted at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6054.msg52022/topicseen.html#msg52022. (For a higher level of detail, see the series of posts at the PMQ Think Tank starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26883#26883.)

I think that in your case a truer hydration test with sifted flour would be one without the honey.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 05:14:18 AM »
Pete, I baked the pies today and noticed a few things.

1) The dough felt like it could go a few more days (5-6) without ill effects.

2) They baked up somewhat lighter in color, this tells me that they were running out of juice. Is this correct?

3) The dough was fairly easy to handle. I sized the pies for 14in but out beyond 10 or so there was quite a bit of elasticity which I found odd being that the dough felt so loose.

4) I noticed the "breadiness" that you spoke of in another thread when using the autolyse. as with you im not sure I care for it either. Its almost a cake like tenderness but the crumb still looked open and airy.

5) The doughs were actually light in flavor, almost bland. I have not encountered this before and is somewhat perplexing.

6) The ovenspring was incredible, one of the pies actually blew pieces of sausage off of it. Sounds funny and I wouldn't believe it if the wife and I didn't see it with our own eyes, we were actually watching it when it happened. Cooking temp was 600-625. Time is gauged by the look of the pie and was generally around 4.5 min. Any longer would have resulted in burns.

7) The crust didn't "crisp" up  like it normally does. It was still somewhat crispy but not a good strong crisp.

You have any thoughts

« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 06:07:34 AM by ThunderStik »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 09:58:03 AM »
ThunderStik,

I think it would help to know how much honey you used in making your dough, as a percent of the flour weight. Honey can have a tendency to strengthen a dough and, as a result, increase its elasticity. I commented on this attribute at Reply 34 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17136/topicseen.html#msg17136. However, in all of the experiments I have conducted using honey, including several "thin" versions of member Randy's Papa John clone doughs at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html and my own Papa John's clone doughs, I did not experience any significant degree of elasticity. For the most part, I found that the dough with honey had a nice balance between elasticity. In one instance, as I reported at Reply 52 in connection with a Papa John's clone dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312, I noted a bias toward elasticity but the dough in that case had a short overall fermentation time that could also have contributed to the bias toward elasticity.

If your dough made it out to 5-6 days and the crusts were lighter, that would suggest a reduction in the level of residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking. Knowing the amount of honey you used might shed some light on the results you achieved. I am somewhat surprised by the bland crust flavor. Ordinarily, after several days of cold fermentation, you would get an increase in crust flavors because of the increase in the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to flavor and other characteristics of the finished crust. Depending on the particular honey used and its own flavor profile, from mild to strong, that can also provide significant amounts of flavor. The cake-like quality of the crumb you experienced could have been because of the honey rather than the autolyse. Honey is highly hygroscopic in nature, that is, it has a strong attraction for water. It is considerably more highly hygroscopic than sugar. What that means is that the honey will help retain the moisture in the dough. It will do so during baking and even as the baked pizza cools. The result is a more tender crust and crumb, and reduced crispiness. As you might suspect, the more honey you use, the more pronounced the tenderness of the crust and crumb. Oil in the dough will have a similar effect because the oil slows down the water evaporation during baking.

To give autolyse a fairer test, I suggest that you repeat your recipe but without using the honey. FWIW, I did not find any reference in Prof. Calvel's book (The Taste of Bread) about using honey, either alone or in the context of autolyse.

You didn't indicate whether you allowed the dough to warm up before shaping and stretching, but if you used the dough cold that could have accounted for the large bubbles you experienced during baking.

Peter


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 09:17:26 PM »
Sorry, i may have made an ass of myself. I have been going over my recipe for a while today trying to figure out where I came up with my numbers they are just not making sense.

I ran them thru the calculator multiple times but the numbers I keep coming up with are just odd.

Anyway they WERE sized for a 12in pie so that takes takes care of the elasticity issue.

The recipe was also a 60% hydration, one of the things that made no sense to me.

Anyway, I used 4% honey. I have used honey in all my recipies with the exception of the very first batch I ever made. So the honey is not new to the equation.

The yeast was .7% , another thing that made no sense. What is an average amount of yeast? What is considered high/low?

Salt was 1.5%.

Sorry for the mistakes, im still trying to figure out what happened.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 09:54:52 PM »
ThunderStik,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a typical Lehmann NY style dough formulation for a 12" pizza and using 4% honey:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Honey (4%):
Total (169.75%):
170 g  |  6 oz | 0.37 lbs
107.1 g  |  3.78 oz | 0.24 lbs
0.42 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
2.55 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
6.8 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
288.57 g | 10.18 oz | 0.64 lbs | TF = 0.09
Note: Thickness factor = 0.09: no bowl residue compensation

As the above table notes, the formulation is based on a thickness factor of 0.09. I did not use a bowl residue compensation but if one is desired, I would use 1.5% for a dough made in a standard home stand mixer.

The range of yeast values that Tom Lehmann recommends for his NY style dough is given at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. For IDY, the yeast quantity would be about 0.17-0.25% (one-third of the fresh yeast range). I have used both of those values, and values in between, but generally I use the upper end of that range, or 0.25%. That value is actually the one that I use when the weather is warm. When it is cold, I use about 0.40% IDY. I would only use 0.70% or thereabouts for an emergency dough made at room temperature. That value would be too high for a cold fermented dough. If you used 0.70% IDY, I am surprised that you have been able to get several days out of the dough.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/

« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:20:33 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: Pete, I have a few questions.
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2009, 11:59:04 PM »
I will tell ya whats crazy,I have used that recipe for the last 3 batches. I ran the numbers that I have in the recipe and it turned out to be a 60%. I know I still cant figure out how I came to those numbers.

I must have changed my mind in the middle of inputing numbers or something because thats not what I have written down. Anyway, live and learn I guess. The other times I used the recipe they were usually 1 day sometimes 2 day cold ferment. Plus I used ADY that was activated with honey and warm water in the very beginning of the mixing processs. I guess I just lucked out this time that i decided to do the late pitch and I also decided to use the bread machine yeast. Finished dough temp was 74 degrees so I think that helped also.
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