Author Topic: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure  (Read 7656 times)

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Offline duegatti

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Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« on: May 15, 2009, 09:30:04 PM »
I've read way too much, and I've got paralysis from analysis.  I've got the simple water/flour/bread machine yeast and warm rise procedure - you use it shortly after preparing it.  I'd be happy to do that, but what I'd like to do (because I assume it would be an improvement), if it's possible, is to use those ingredients, but modify the procedure to include an autolyze period, and then do a multiple day cold rise in the fridge.  Are these techniques, and ingredients, even compatible with one another?  Can anybody walk me through this?  I would be using a 14" stone, and would be happy to either make enough for one pizza, or two or three if I can keep them in the fridge and spread them out over a couple of days.  Or throw it out; doesn't matter.  I'd just like to get started.  Am I even on a radar screen here?

Many thanks.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2009, 10:33:13 PM »
duegatti,

Your request is quite reasonable. A dough recipe that is used to make a room temperature fermented dough can be modified to produce a dough that can ferment for several days in the refrigerator and be usable within a window of a few days. The main changes are to use colder water so as to achieve a lower finished dough temperature, and to use considerably less yeast. In the context of this protocol, it is easy to introduce the autolyse method. If you have a particular dough recipe in mind, it would help to use that recipe for discussion purposes. It would also help to know how you would plan to make the dough, for example, using a stand mixer, food processor, bread maker, or by hand.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2009, 05:24:48 PM »
Well that's very encouraging and calming.  I'll be using a stand mixer.  I should have access to at least 650 degrees, and possibly 750.

I'm a bit chagrined that all of my reading has turned out to be unfocused and too advanced; I've only just become aware of the basics that are present at this site.  I'm off to read the Lehmann recipe, crunch some numbers, and read the "beginners' thread" that you wrote in response to someone's questions regarding the Lehman recipe.  But if anyone wants to spoon feed me info while I'm away, I'd be grateful as well.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2009, 05:45:14 PM »
O.K.; the journey of a thousand miles.  Crunching Lehmann numbers for three 14" pies gives us:

Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
IDY (0.21%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (1.0%):
Total (166.71%):
Single Ball:
785.34 g  |  27.7 oz | 1.73 lbs
502.62 g  |  17.73 oz | 1.11 lbs
1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
11.78 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.11 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
7.85 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.75 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
1309.24 g | 46.18 oz | 2.89 lbs | TF = 0.1
436.41 g | 15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs

Why is extra virgin olive oil not recommended, and what is a good alternative?

Now, all we need to do is tweak the Lehmann recipe to incorporate an autolyzing step.  I'm off to read some more about autolyzing.


Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2009, 05:59:13 PM »
Oh, and I've got a scale.  And I'm not afraid to use it.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2009, 06:06:07 PM »
Why is extra virgin olive oil not recommended, and what is a good alternative?

duegatti,

I'll take the easy question first. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is intended for commercial use. Most professional pizza operators do not use extra virgin olive oil mainly because it is much more expensive than other oils. Some will use pomace olive oil, which is cheaper than extra virgin olive oil while maintaining a flavor profile that is similar to extra virgin olive oil (most consumers cannot tell the difference), and some will coat or brush the finished dough balls with the cheaper vegetable oil (soybean oil) to keep costs down. There are also some operators who use a blend of olive oil and some other oil, such as canola oil. A typical blend might be 80% canola oil and 20% olive oil. There are still a few operators who use only extra virgin olive oil, but they are very much in the minority. I would say that most pizza operators use vegetable oil or canola oil.

Peter

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2009, 06:27:39 PM »
Hey duegotti
I'm still a newb that has just gone thru what you are about to.  It seems we also have similar temps, appliances, and desires.  So maybe I can help you avoid a few hundred of the mis-steps I made.
This is my latest formula and method.  I refer you to this because it includes only the 4 basic ingredients, autolyse, and cold fermentation you listed, makes 4 pies for a 14" stone, and uses a stand mixer.  If your mixer is equipped with a "C" shaped dough hook, this may also apply.  Plus the measurements are volumetric in the event you do not have a scale.  This is certainly not the best looking, tasting, or best anything you will find on this forum and may not even be the style of pizza you want to make, but it does work consistently and you may get something out of it http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ef7fde5b73405aa487c54b4068e017f4&topic=8015.msg73723#msg73723.
Some other lessons I have learned:
If you dough does not look smooth, is not soft, or is tough after mixing/kneading - It prob needs more kneading.
Allow your dough ample warming/rising time once out of the fridge.  If it feels quite cold to your hands or if it does not "rise" well in the oven, a longer counter warm up time may help.
When stretching the skin, try to form the outer rim first, then try not to crush or collapse it too much after that.  If you can't get it stretched as large as designed, let it rest on a floured surface for up to 5 minutes, then try again and it should stretch further.
Dress your pie on the peel a quickly as possible.  The longer the pie sits on the peel, the more of the flour lube it absorbs and it will eventually stick.  Always give it a shake to make sure it will slide before you open the oven door.
Try your stone on the lowest to middle rack positions for starters.  A one hour preheat is common.  Most ovens produce heat from the bottom and it is not uncommon for the stone to reach a higher temp than the oven setting.  This increases the lower the stone is positioned.  This sounds good initially, but this also means the heat hitting the top of the pie can be lower than the bottom (stone), which is the opposite of the ideal.  This can make it difficult to judge when the pie is done since when the top crust is beautifully browned, it may actually have baked too long.  A tough and too chewy pie is often the result of overbaking.
I have had to eat a few of my pies with a spoon but hope you do not have to!
Hog




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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2009, 07:05:51 PM »
Now, all we need to do is tweak the Lehmann recipe to incorporate an autolyzing step.  I'm off to read some more about autolyzing.


Now, to the much tougher question.

Autolyse is a difficult and tricky matter and a subject that is shrouded in much confusion. To begin, the autolyse method involves the simple steps of mixing flour and water together to form a dough and then letting the dough rest for a period of time. The period of rest allows the flour to hydrate more completely. If yeast is added to this mixture at the outset (with a possible exception of a small amount of a natural starter), or if salt is added, the combination is not technically an "autolyse", even though you will find many who incorrectly refer to such as an "autolyse". The original concept of autolyse, which was developed in the context of making European breads, also did not involve adding sugar or oil. Only flour and water. There are many people who, notwithstanding the classic form of autolyse, choose to add yeast and/or salt along with the flour and water, and possibly other ingredients, and then allow that mixture to rest. Is that the same or equivalent to autolyse? Professor Raymond Calvel, who conceived the original autolyse method in the 1970's, would say no. For some of the many reasons for that answer, you might want to read the following thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22758.html#msg22758, and, in particular, Reply 9 in that thread. Arguably, any dough that is subjected to a period of rest will experience some of the effects of a classic autolyse, such as the effects of protease enzymes on the gluten and some improvement in flour hydration, but there are other effects that are outside of the classic autolyse process. But, it is up to you to decide for yourself which methods you prefer.

The duration of the autolyse rest period is also the matter of much discussion and debate. I have seen as little as 5 minutes and up to several hours, and even overnight, for a few dough balls made in a home setting. I would say that the most common rest duration is about 20 minutes to an hour. As I noted in my review of Professor Calvel's book A Taste of Bread at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg66414.html#msg66414, Professor Calvel himself used an autolyse rest period of only 13-30 minutes for the dough recipes in his book, and that range was for up to 75 pounds of dough, not an amount of dough for a single loaf of bread or an amount of dough that might be used to make a single or a few pizzas. I think I would use something like 15-20 minutes. But, again, that is up to you.

An additional facet of the autolyse method is how to actually implement the autolyse. When I use the autolyse method, I usually combine all of the formula flour and all of the formula water. I haven't studied all of Professor Calvel's bread dough formulations, but many of them seem to use all of the flour and water in the autolyse (whereas his description of the process talks about autolysing a part of the flour). However, there are others who use various ratios of flour and water for their autolyse, often interspersed with multiple rest periods, apparently with good results. So, that is another area that you are free to experiment with.

With specific reference to the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I would use the classic autolyse of flour and water and use all of the formula water and formula water and allow the dough to rest for about 15-20 minutes. I would then add the yeast and salt and knead together. The oil can be then be added and kneaded into the dough. Sometimes it can be difficult to mix oil into an already kneaded dough. Fortunately, 1% oil is small enough to combine with relative ease, although if your stand mixer has a C-hook, it may be necessary to help incorporate the oil into the dough by hand.

Using the classic autolyse will allow you to establish an initial benchmark in terms of results. From that point on, you are free to make changes along the lines mentioned above, and as many members have discussed on the forum, and determine whether the changes provide better results from your perspective than the benchmark results. You may even find that you don't like the effects produced on the finished product by using the autolyse method. So, in your case, you may want to try the Lehmann dough without the autolyse and with the autolyse, keeping as many of the variables the same for both tests.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 07:09:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2009, 07:56:28 PM »
You're killing me.  I appreciate it. 

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 08:41:51 PM »
I would use the classic autolyse of flour and water and use all of the formula water and formula water

is this a typo peter?  -marc


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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2009, 08:54:03 PM »
I would use the classic autolyse of flour and water and use all of the formula water and formula water

is this a typo peter?  -marc

Marc,

Thank you for catching my error. I have corrected it.

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2009, 09:00:20 PM »
Peter,  its not often that it happens! -marc

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 11:15:30 AM »
duegatti, I know where you are coming from, big time. I'm also pretty new, and after trying terrible recipes found online for 4 hr doughs I was just looking to make something that resembled pizza! I was also trying things way beyond my scope of understanding, but you're not doing that at all so you'll be ok.

To achieve what you desire I would do what I did for initial success, the Lehmans dough. If you want to go over 2 days add 1-2% sugar based off flour volume. Use the scale, as 1 cup of flour can weigh anything. Sift your flour onto scale. As Peter says above autolyse is just flour and water, no yeast yet. I do two ''rest periods'', both with the yeast. For a quick synopsis of protocol there look here.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg74107.html#msg74107

Once you have that down I would graduate to 6-7 day low yeast, no sugar, no oil ferments. I refer to...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.0.html
This is a truly amazing dough, one to really impress. I don't give rests to this like I do the Lehmann, I do it as Glutenboy himself dictates, as notice how low the yeast is and how long it rests. This pizza is amazing.

Let me finally add, a one day warm rise pizza can be wonderful. The best one I have found is JerryMac. An American / NY style. He does a 5 hour 'rest period' to create a 'poolish' in the batter stage. This is nothing like the "double in size-punch down'' recipes you find generically... as it's really a good. I do it like Peter did, the biggest notable difference is equal flour and water up front for poolish, so as I do it this way I will link you to his method.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html

There, that should keep you busy and happy for a few months! Hope it helps, and welcome.   :chef:



« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 03:12:13 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 11:35:58 AM »
As Peter says above autolyse is just flour and equal water, no yeast yet.

J,

Based on the Calvel dough recipes I examined, all of the formula water and all of the formula flour were combined. They were not of equal weight. You may be thinking of a poolish, which does call for equal weights of flour and water (plus yeast, of course).

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2009, 03:13:59 PM »
Yes I was, I meant on the poolish. I took out the word ''equal'' above, confused the two.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline duegatti

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Disaster? Help??!!??
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2009, 09:12:29 PM »
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (.21%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (1%):
Total (165.71%):
Single Ball:
829.58 g  |  29.26 oz | 1.83 lbs
522.64 g  |  18.44 oz | 1.15 lbs
1.74 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
12.44 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.23 tsp | 0.74 tbsp
8.3 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.84 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
1374.71 g | 48.49 oz | 3.03 lbs | TF = 0.105
458.24 g | 16.16 oz | 1.01 lbs

Decided to go straight Lehmann with this formulation.  Dough totally climbed stirring devices - tried paddle and hook - prior to adding oil.  Tried working the oil in by hand.  Climbed the hook.  Tossed in circa 10 ml water; just got a little bit of stuff mixing at the bottom of the bowl.  It's "autolyzing" now, by which I mean I'm waiting for someone to tell me what I did wrong, and/or what I should do now.

Thanks,

Joe


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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2009, 09:27:23 PM »
Joe,

Based on your brief description, and without seeing photos, is is hard to say whether you have a problem on your hands. You might want to read Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 for the general steps used in making a Lehmann dough.

Peter

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2009, 09:43:01 PM »
Peter,

Pictures.  The deed is done.

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2009, 09:44:00 PM »
another:

Offline duegatti

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Re: Overwhelmed Novice Needs First Dough Procedure
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2009, 09:45:15 PM »
Is there a problem?  How do I go forward?