Author Topic: Next.  (Read 1374 times)

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Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Next.
« on: June 24, 2009, 12:57:46 PM »
I've spent 7 years (since my first trip to Italy) figuring out how to mimic my favorite Margherita Extra that the DOP would approve of.  I've done it over and over, I love it, and eat it every week.  Now it's time for a new challenge.  I'm ready to tackle a classic NY style crust (which some of my original attempts ended up like, but I'm not the best record keeper). 

I'm using a DCS gas range, stones get maxed to almost 700 on infrared thermometer.  Using dual fibraments, top and bottom.  Use a KA Pro 610 w/ Spiral. 

So, would you folks who are stellar NY style pro's drop some knowledge for me?  I'm making a half dozen pies this Saturday, and want a couple of your 'tried and true' recipes and methods to give a shot.  I'm not an amateur so give it to me straight.  And it needs to be good, or I may go back to my ME DOP style forever!  Open to all flour types, cooking temps, ferm processes, knead processes, etc.- just make it good, will ya?

Grazie
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 01:08:53 PM by ThePizzaBiatch »


Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Next.
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 01:49:09 PM »
ThePizzaBiatch (interesting handle...)
Welcome!
There are many excellent NY style formulas in this section to choose from.  Just click away and look at some photos to see if that is what you are looking for.
Some of the most popular would include Glutenboy's tonights pie and JerryMac's latest dough recipe by request.  I would definitely check out Essen1's NY style pizza project and anything by tdeane as well.  There are many others but pies from these folks are works of art that just stick in my mind.
Hog

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Next.
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 02:06:31 PM »
ThePizzaBiatch,

The "classic" NY style dough formulation was originally based on using only all-purpose flour, water (around 65% hydration), fresh yeast and salt. No salt and no oil were used. The dough was made in the morning by hand (Mr. Hobart hadn't yet invented the mixer), fermented at room temperature, and used to make pizzas the same day. All-purpose flour was later replaced by bread flour and eventually high-gluten flour, which may well be the most common flour used today by NYC pizza operators who specialize in the NY style. Fresh yeast was displaced in some instances by active dry yeast (ADY) after World War II and by instant dry yeast (IDY) when it was invented in the 1970's. When commercial refrigerators/coolers were invented, dough balls were cold fermented in such refrigerators/coolers. When the old very high temperature ovens (e.g., coal-fired ovens) were supplemented or replaced by gas and electric ovens, oil and sugar were added to the doughs because of the lower temperatures.

A basic NY style dough formulation that can be used for your purposes is the well known "Lehmann" NY style dough formulation given at http://www.pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/. If you would like a more "classic" style, you can omit the oil. Sugar is usually recommended if the period of cold fermentation is to exceed about two days. In that case, 1-2% sugar should be adequate to insure food for the yeast and residual sugar levels to contribute to good crust coloration. For a 12" pizza, 10 ounces of dough should be sufficient. For other sizes, the following dough ball weights should be sufficient: 14" (13.60 ounces), 16" (17.75 ounces), and 18" (22.50 ounces). If you are proficient in working with baker's percents, you can use the forum's expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the quantities of ingredients needed to make any number and sizes of pizzas. You can also use the Thickness Factor option to achieve thicker or thinner crusts (I used a nominal thickness factor of 0.088281, which I calculated from information I got from Tom Lehmann himself, to come up with the above dough balls weights). You can also compensate for minor dough losses incurred in the preparation of the dough by using the bowl residue compensation feature. For a standard KitchenAid stand mixer such as yours, I recommend a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%.

In using the above calculator tool, you will perhaps want to select a hydration that is commensurate with the absorption value of the flour you intend to use. You will perhaps also want to select a yeast value that is proper for this time of year as temperatures warm up across the country. I would suggest using cold or cool water if the dough is to be cold fermented for more than a couple of days. I assume that I am not telling you anything you don't already know.

There are other NY style dough formulations on the forum with their staunch advocates and proponents. Maybe you will hear from them also. I might mention that the Glutenboy dough formulation (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.0.html) suggested by PizzaHog may require several days of cold fermentation and may not fit your window of usability if you are shooting to make the pizzas on Saturday. The JerryMac recipe is a same-day, poolish-based dough formulation with a hydration of around 68%. It is not a "classic" NY style dough formulation but it is a very good and popular recipe and can be found at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html. I came up with my own baker's percent version at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html. The Essen1 NY style project is discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.0.html.

I hope you will let us know which dough formulations you use and the results you get. Good luck.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:05:49 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: Next.
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 03:00:14 PM »
Exactly what I was hoping to hear.  Sorry about the placement of the post, as I was directed here through google and thought it was ONLY a forum.  Now have found the other parts of the site.  Thank you much for the post, and all the detail.  Great points to consider as I change my style!!!  Much appreciated.

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: Next.
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 03:41:37 PM »
I like the JerryMac formulation.  Thoughts on making ferm process if I start this tonight.  i.e. how long poolish vs. whole dough?  Will this dough work with a 3-day cool rise?  Thanks!

Offline josteh

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Re: Next.
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 03:58:08 PM »
ThePizzaBiatch,
somewhat off topic, but would you like to share your Margherita Extra recipe&protocol over at the neapolitan section whenever you have the time? Maybe you have a couple of photos you could post as well:-)

j.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Next.
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 04:23:06 PM »
Thoughts on making ferm process if I start this tonight.  i.e. how long poolish vs. whole dough?  Will this dough work with a 3-day cool rise?

ThePizzaBiatch,

Poolish- or sponge-based doughs can be very tricky. If too much yeast is used in the poolish or sponge preferment, there is a very high risk of sugar depletion, leaving too little residual sugar to produce good crust coloration in the finished crust. This makes such a poolish or sponge preferment less than optimal for a long cold fermentation. Ideally, you would want to use very small amounts of yeast in the poolish or sponge preferment (the amount depends on the desired period of prefermentation, the ambient prefermentation temperature--usually room temperature--and the water temperature). That is not to say that a cold fermented poolish or sponge based dough is impossible. If you look at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814, you will see a pizza that I made using a sponge preferment and two days of cold fermentation. Had I allowed the fermentation period to go any longer, I am sure I would have experienced either overfermentation of even greater loss of residual sugar. That is one of the reasons why I suggested using some diastatic malt to release more natural sugars from the flour. Unfortunately, that doesn't always do a perfect job. There is a delicate balance between all of the variables involved. It can take a lot of experimentation to find that balance.

The nice thing about a poolish or sponge preferment is that it has its own built-in signalling system to tell you when to use it. It is the break point, or shortly thereafter, as discussed in the abovereferenced thread. Of course, it is possible to control the timing of that event but you would have to use the proper amount of yeast and the proper water temperature and deal with the finicky nature of room temperatures. A lot of people make a mess of these sorts of things by thinking that they can do whatever they want with the preferment and get good results. Quite often they end up with overfermented/overproofed doughs and a lack of crust color. The crust flavors are often quite good because of the large amounts of fermentation byproducts that are produced and contribute to crust flavor and aroma.

Another point to keep in mind is that JerryMac's dough formulation calls for a lot of sugar, in the form of honey or barley malt syrup. If you are baking on a very hot stone surface, that can lead to premature or excessive bottom crust browning. I know that some members delete or dramatically reduce the amount of honey or barley malt syrup in the JerryMac dough formulation when baking on pizza stones. In my case, I have used either a pizza screen or a combination of pizza screen and stone to avoid or minimize those effects.

Peter

Offline ThePizzaBiatch

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Re: Next.
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 05:05:02 PM »
ThePizzaBiatch,
somewhat off topic, but would you like to share your Margherita Extra recipe&protocol over at the neapolitan section whenever you have the time? Maybe you have a couple of photos you could post as well:-)

j.

I will do that, I've got plenty of pictures, and plenty of mistakes I've made!  I'll post my full method for both my gas / fibrament combo and the wood-burning version over the weekend.

Offline bicster

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Re: Next.
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 05:16:44 PM »
I will do that, I've got plenty of pictures, and plenty of mistakes I've made!  I'll post my full method for both my gas / fibrament combo and the wood-burning version over the weekend.

I look forward to reading it

best of luck on the NY style


 

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