Author Topic: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading  (Read 16344 times)

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Offline s00da

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@Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« on: August 04, 2009, 11:19:36 AM »
Hi Pete  ;D

Sorry for pointing you out like that in the subject but I know you're a big advocate of slightly under-kneading pizza dough. I tried to find reason on the forums with no luck. I'm trying to understand the difference so I can experiment with it on my pizzas.

Thanks!
Saad


Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2009, 03:20:10 PM »
Saad,

The big proponent of slightly underkneading pizza dough is Tom Lehmann. Evelyne Slomon is also a big advocate of slightly underkneading pizza dough. The theory as I understand it is that while full gluten development is fine for making bread dough, it is not necessary for pizza dough. Rather, one relies on biochemical gluten development during the fermentation process to fully develop the gluten. Here are some posts/threads that discuss this matter:

Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694.html#msg28694;
Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3204.msg27134/topicseen.html#msg27134 ;
Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5083.msg43133.html#msg43133 ;
Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7122.msg61368/topicseen.html#msg61368 ;
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=23597#23597 ;
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=793#793; and
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34193&sid=e8dc885ad05e9529aca236b9e5eb8fd3#34193

Evelyne Slomon also discusses this subject briefly in a PizzaRadio segment at http://www.pizzaradio.com/?p=39.

I think it is only appropriate to mention that there are some members who advocate much longer knead times. For example, both scott r and ThunderStik have recently posted on several occasions that they favor much longer kneading of their pizza doughs. One of the downsides of long knead times, apart possibly from getting a higher finished dough temperature, is that long knead times, especially at high mixer speeds, can oxidize the flour and destroy or damage carotenoids that, according to Prof. Raymond Calvel, are "flavor carriers" and affect final crust color, aroma and taste (see Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8699.msg75869/topicseen.html#msg75869 and also Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg66414/topicseen.html#msg66414). I suppose that if one avoids using high mixer speeds it may be possible to escape overoxidizing the dough and harming carotenoids. Using autolyse and similar rest periods may also help cut back on the knead times and, by so doing, reduce the possibility of harming the carotenoids.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2009, 04:39:28 PM »
Thanks Pete for all the references. This one specifically is probably what I'm looking for: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34193&sid=e8dc885ad05e9529aca236b9e5eb8fd3#34193 because Tom here explains the outcome of either practice giving a different product. But it is also interesting to see that he explains it as more of an "unnecessary" rather than "incorrect" in this post: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=23597#23597 and that the fermentation will simply compensate for the under-kneading. Makes me still wonder if the reason would be the different product or the preparation convenience?


It's also interesting to see Correll in the following links trouble-shoots an excessively elastic dough as being under mixed while Tom states in this post: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34193&sid=e8dc885ad05e9529aca236b9e5eb8fd3#34193 that it is the result of full development.
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730461
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730462
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730472
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730473

It's really very confusing to me, as I see it like this now:

under-mixed = excessively elastic (as per Correll)
slightly under-mixed = sweet spot (Tom)
fully mixed (developed) = excessively elastic (Tom)
over-mixed = excessively extensible (Correl)

What about slightly over-mixed? would it be again a sweet spot?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

EDIT (2/1/2013): For a link to the above Correll items, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 02:19:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2009, 05:57:32 PM »
I think everyone has a different "sweet spot" and different abilities to deal with the dough.  Technically, I don't knead my doughs at all.  I just fold them several times, and let them ferment.  As Pete indicates, the gluten forms either way.  Kneading seems to be a method to speed up the gluten development making it easy to overshoot your desired endpoint.  I'm an advocate of high hydration, and minimal handling of the dough, and I can assure you, I was able to make a round pizza and get it off the peel.  The closest I came to kneading was when I formed my dough balls.

Unfortunately, you can get ideas here on the forum, but you have to try techniques for yourself to see what works for you, and what produces a pizza to your tastes.  Many of the questions don't have answers, just preferences.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2009, 07:03:09 PM »
Saad,

I really believe that Tom Lehmann believes what he says about underkneading, whether it is a commercial pizza dough (regular or emergency) or a pizza dough made at home. However, he also knows that people have free will and might disagree with him and do things their own way in their own unique setting. They will still end up with a usable product, but it will not be the same as his as far as he is concerned. I also believe that it is difficult to diagnose problems from only a few clues. John Correll tries to do that as a convenience to the readers of his Encyclopizza, but simple answers to simple questions doesn't always work. That is the reason why I ask so many questions of our members who bring their problems to the forum. I want to know what dough recipe they are using, what ingredients they are using, how they make the dough, the temperatures of everything, how they manage the dough, how they make and bake the pizzas and, if possible, a few sample photos. That gives me a better shot at finding the cause of the problem.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that in a home setting our members have a wide range of choices of mixers (including food processors and bread makers) with different attachments and mixer speeds, and a wide choice of dough recipes and dough batch sizes.  Each situation is different. That makes it difficult to generalize about things, including whether a dough is undermixed, overmixed, or mixed just right in a given situation.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 07:06:41 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2009, 07:13:42 PM »
You can get ideas here on the forum, but you have to try techniques for yourself to see what works for you, and what produces a pizza to your tastes.  Many of the questions don't have answers, just preferences.

Well said! Pizza is not a recipe with simple relationships. So let's say you could develop a formula that allowed you calculate an ideal amount of gluten development based on kneading time for a given flour type, mixer action, mixer speed, autolyze intervals, hydration level, ambient temperature, water temperature, relative humidity, elevation above sea level, fermentation time, fermentation temp, number of folds, proofing temp, proofing time, method of forming balls, method of shaping crusts, crust thickness, baking temp, baking time, incisor sharpness, size of bite, number of chews per bite, foot-pounds per bite, amylase enzyme concentration in the saliva, time since last meal, ..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 07:18:48 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline scott r

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 12:42:05 AM »
amazing post bill!


Something to consider,  I have been using lots of different types of mixers lately, and from what I have been able to ascertain 5 minutes in a santos fork mixer is about equal to 20 minutes in a pietroberto fork mixer, which is about equal to 15 minutes in a hobart or typical planetary mixer, 9 minutes in a spiral mixer, 1 minute in a food processor, 20 minutes in an electrolux dlx mixer or 10 minutes in a bosch universal mixer.   

I know this doesn't make sense, but I have definitely found similar characteristics to both underkneaded and over kneaded doughs, and maybe this partially explains the correl/lehmann differences of opinion.   Both oveer and under mixing produce what I would consider a fairly tough/chewy crust (but with many other dissimilar attributes).  What I shoot for is the most tender crust possible, and this happens when the gluten mesh has become strong enough to trap lots of bubbles (creating maximum rise), but before it is too tight to soften properly during fermentation. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 12:43:55 AM by scott r »

Offline fazzari

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 01:42:17 AM »
Here is a link to the current Pizza Today Magazine which happens to have an article by Tom Lehmann regarding the very subject mentioned here.
John
http://www.pizzatoday.com/IMags/Piz0908/pageflip.html

The article starts on page 27

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 05:39:44 AM »
I think everyone has a different "sweet spot" and different abilities to deal with the dough.  Technically, I don't knead my doughs at all.  I just fold them several times, and let them ferment.  As Pete indicates, the gluten forms either way.  Kneading seems to be a method to speed up the gluten development making it easy to overshoot your desired endpoint.  I'm an advocate of high hydration, and minimal handling of the dough, and I can assure you, I was able to make a round pizza and get it off the peel.  The closest I came to kneading was when I formed my dough balls.

Unfortunately, you can get ideas here on the forum, but you have to try techniques for yourself to see what works for you, and what produces a pizza to your tastes.  Many of the questions don't have answers, just preferences.

I agree with you and this is what gives each one's pie character. The way I like to learn pizza making is by being un-biased toward any recipe or method. I think it's a result of my lack of exposure to different pizza types and not growing up eating from a specific local pizzeria, thus having no attachment or preference. I want to explore as much as I can and this takes me to trying different methods and here is when I reached the mixing part where I found professionals/masters and master hobbyists going in different paths with mixed justifications. When I raise my question here in the forum, I'm was ready to be replied to with posts based on preferences but let's not forget that preference guides the method/practice; thus raises technical questions again.


Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 06:40:50 AM »
Saad,

I really believe that Tom Lehmann believes what he says about underkneading, whether it is a commercial pizza dough (regular or emergency) or a pizza dough made at home. However, he also knows that people have free will and might disagree with him and do things their own way in their own unique setting. They will still end up with a usable product, but it will not be the same as his as far as he is concerned. I also believe that it is difficult to diagnose problems from only a few clues. John Correll tries to do that as a convenience to the readers of his Encyclopizza, but simple answers to simple questions doesn't always work. That is the reason why I ask so many questions of our members who bring their problems to the forum. I want to know what dough recipe they are using, what ingredients they are using, how they make the dough, the temperatures of everything, how they manage the dough, how they make and bake the pizzas and, if possible, a few sample photos. That gives me a better shot at finding the cause of the problem.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that in a home setting our members have a wide range of choices of mixers (including food processors and bread makers) with different attachments and mixer speeds, and a wide choice of dough recipes and dough batch sizes.  Each situation is different. That makes it difficult to generalize about things, including whether a dough is undermixed, overmixed, or mixed just right in a given situation.

Peter

Peter, I do not doubt Tom's method nor I can ignore Correll's or anyone else who advocates longer knead times because of one simple fact. When I finally succeeded in producing a relatively proper dough here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9029.0.html and had a great crust at the end. I want to know if my dough was slightly under-mixed (as per Tom) or well mixed (Correll)...or by any other person's judgment. Knowing so will allow me to adjust and then pick my preference, only if the relatively properly-mixed dough was truly different to both. Maybe Tom, Correll, yourself and others on the forum are all achieving the proper dough development in different methods -which would sad that I'm stressing the subject here- since the matter is subjective to many other variables like you said. The only way this can be done is by experimenting with a single dough recipe, keeping everything constant and just playing with mixing time and technique. Has anyone done that on the forum? instead of re-inventing the wheel here  ;D

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 06:57:25 AM »
I know this doesn't make sense, but I have definitely found similar characteristics to both underkneaded and over kneaded doughs, and maybe this partially explains the correl/lehmann differences of opinion.   Both oveer and under mixing produce what I would consider a fairly tough/chewy crust (but with many other dissimilar attributes).  What I shoot for is the most tender crust possible, and this happens when the gluten mesh has become strong enough to trap lots of bubbles (creating maximum rise), but before it is too tight to soften properly during fermentation. 

Scott, it's like you're reading my mind. The way I've been visualizing it is that if you plot gluten development on a time-development graph, we might have something like a bell curve. Where time involves the mixing and fermentation factors. Now if you consider Tom's slightly under-mixing, then the dough by the bake time could be anywhere from the gluten being well developed all the way to over developed where it becomes overly extensible depending on fermentation of course. Where if you over knead and more develop the gluten, you could have a dough by bake time that passed the bell curve peak of proper development and faster on it's way to over fermentation. A possible conclusion to this is that Tom's method might offer a wider usability window of the dough.

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 08:32:15 AM »
Saad,
I know it can become confusing, as it did for me.  There are so many things to remember when making your dough.  One of the things I found most helpful was when I watched the video of Tom Lehmann mixing the dough.  He then pulled out a egg shaped piece and formed it into a little dough ball.  He pressed his two thumbs into the small ball.  He said if the indentation of your thumbs shows, then mix the dough for a couple more minutes and try it again.  That is how I got to my sweet spot.
I know everyone is using different dough formula's and mine was Tom Lehmann's NY style.  My dough has been consistent since using this method.  I still need to make adjustments in the water temperature depending on humidity and room temperature. 
This is just my opinion.  Hopefully it will help you.  I haven't been making pizza dough that many months and I am doing it in a commercial environment. 
Good luck!  :)
Norma

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 10:26:21 AM »
Norma, did you try to increase mixing for let's say 20% more and see how the pizza would come out? Regardless of the test. You can also decrease mixing to the bare minimum as UnConundrum recommended earlier in this thread.

I will definitely try many different mixing times on my current recipe and I will be looking at 2 things at the end: 1) Crust. 2) Shelf life.

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 11:29:40 AM »
The way I've been visualizing it is that if you plot gluten development on a time-development graph, we might have something like a bell curve. Where time involves the mixing and fermentation factors.

As discussed at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2964.msg25401.html#msg25401, there actually is a bell curve for kneading. I don't know if I can find a quote to cite to you but I am pretty sure that Tom Lehmann has talked about it. I believe he has said that most pizza operators try to stay on the underkneaded part of the bell curve because it is better for the dough, it saves time, and it saves wear and tear on their mixers--as noted in the above reply.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 12:25:21 PM »
It's nice to know that the bell curve idea has been mentioned before but when I think about it for a moment, something just doest sound right. Because if you knead the dough to the top of the curve then the fermentation should take it down resulting in a supple extensible dough while Tom here http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34193&sid=e8dc885ad05e9529aca236b9e5eb8fd3#34193 is indicating a different outcome.

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 06:23:03 PM »
I have done quite a few experiments on kneading times with my basic recipe. It really comes down to personal choice, like an Autolyse period or anything else.

Believe it or not as I am finding out it also comes down to your type of flour and other things. I have found that the All Trumps flour cannot take the beating that the Gold Medal BFB can take. Which is not what I expected but it is knowledge none the less. The type of kneading, if I just let the machine go the tearing action that happens when the dough gets bound up can have side effects. But If I man the machine and dont let that happen the dough will be different.

You will have experiment for yourself and find what you like. My greatest pies may be junk to you (I seriously doubt it though  ;D) and vice versa. 
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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 07:40:58 PM »
Saad,
Yes, in the beginning I did mix my dough for longer times.  I had so many problems with management of my dough.  I really can't say for sure which part of my management wasn't right.  I did many things wrong.  I just know now that by using proper measurements, adjusting water for humidity, temperature, friction factor of my mixer, getting the dough temperature between 80-85 degrees, using Tom's dough test, then balling with plastic bags,this has worked for me.  There are just so many variables in making doughs and so many recipes on this board which can change what can happen.
Follow other people that have tried recipes and follow what they have to say.  They are the ones that did many experiments and can lead you in the right way.
Norma


Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2009, 07:11:09 PM »
Since the last update on this thread, I've done some research regarding effects of dough kneading style, time and dough method on the final product. During my humble efforts, I learned many things that I'd like to summarize in the following points and I hope anyone reading it would assist if they find weakness in my understanding:

1. I found it very easy to understand the process of dough development by imagining dough gluten as a network of rubber bands; where mixing stretches and entangles those rubber bands and stores more energy into the network with kneading time.
2- As it's probably already known and mentioned even in this thread, you cannot compare mixers/mixing methods by the mixing time as I also learned that it is better to compare in terms of the energy delivered/stored into the gluten network. While equipment to measure energy stored into the gluten network is not available to home pizza makers, we can still get a feel for it by understanding the concept and how that effects the look and feel of the dough. The energy delivered is a product of the (mixing-method x mixing time) in relation to dough type (mostly hydration). This of course would mean that different mixers will always differ in mixing time to deliver the same gluten development keeping dough hydration constant. Also, the gluten development mentioned here is in the terms of elasticity/extensibility as you need to keep in mind that different mixing styles will also differ slightly in the texture of the dough (on the gluten network level) and the final product.
3- Regardless of mixing style/method, there are three things that I find constantly happening but at a different rate: Mixing, air incorporation and kneading(or gluten development). I found it is better to separate these three as different terms in order to better understand what's happening to the dough.
4- Mixing is basically is the incorporation of all of the dough ingredients which only takes few minutes in the initial stage of preparing the dough. During this stage there is not much happening in terms of incorporating air or kneading (developing gluten). By the end of this stage, the dough starts showing resistance as a sign of gluten development.
5- The other two terms happen in parallel, air incorporation and kneading (gluten development). Both, the amount of air that is possible to be stored and the gluten development; have a maximum. Luckily, it turns out that the stored air limit is reached before the gluten reaches full development. At the beginning, air is stored as non homogeneous, differently sized bubbles. As you continue kneading, air is continually being separated into smaller and more uniform bubbles trapped in the more-entangled gluten network. Stopping where maximum air incorporation achieved is what Tom refers to. As at this point, you have the maximum amount of air that you can achieve and yet, the bubbles are not 100% uniform, thus resulting in an irregular, non-bread like crumb. If you continue past this point you start making bread. If you further knead and develop gluten, you will have a bread dough with a very tight gluten network that hinders expansion. If you further knead! the rubber bands cannot take more energy and break, thus letting some air bubbles joining again by the means of a damaged gluten network which might produce a slack problematic dough after fermentation.
6- I have also learned that the dough hydration gives another dimension into gluten development. If you visualize a high hydration dough as few rubber bands swimming in a lot of water, you can tell that an improper kneading style and speed might not have proper control in order to store energy in them. A regular KA mixer will simply stir those bands around in water doing nothing because you're aimlessly putting energy that is not being stored; while if you knead by hand, you have better control and can make sure that the gluten network is properly being stretched and storing energy. This is the reason why diving arms mixers are preferred in high hydration as they simulate the hand of the dough making person. Also, I believe this is why Marco in one of his posts said that in order to knead a high hydration dough, you will need a high speed spiral mixer. Spiral mixers are believed to be efficient in delivering energy into the gluten matrix, so combining that with high speed will even improve kneading. This is also the reason why spiral mixers are believed to produce a tight dough in normal hydration levels.
7- Lastly, combining the previous points along with fermentation, cutting/balling and proofing will further change the crumb. If you prepare your dough, directly cut it, ball it and then fermented/proof all the way to bake; the internal crumb structure will mostly be maintained. Where if you bulk fermented for the longer time; then cut/ball and proof at the last stage til baking, this will effect the crumb greatly because the air bubbles are enlarged, full of CO2 and some will join together because of the weakened gluten network during fermentation.

I am sure that I missed a lot of information but this is what's present to me at the moment and thought it would deliver my understanding that I hope will help others in understanding mixing.

So Pete, yes...I agree that slightly under-kneading will produce the proper pizza dough  ;D

Saad
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 07:16:56 PM by s00da »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2009, 08:58:09 PM »
Saad,

Can you tell us what tests you conducted as part of your research on this topic, in terms of dough formulation(s) used, mixer used (and types of agitators), knead times and speeds, etc.?

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2009, 11:36:19 PM »
Saad, in number 5 you wrote,

"As you continue kneading, air is continually being separated into smaller and more uniform bubbles trapped in the more-entangled gluten network. Stopping where maximum air incorporation achieved is what Tom refers to. As at this point, you have the maximum amount of air that you can achieve and yet, the bubbles are not 100% uniform, thus resulting in an irregular, non-bread like crumb. If you continue past this point you start making bread. If you further knead and develop gluten, you will have a bread dough with a very tight gluten network that hinders expansion."

This is not true. Im sure Tom has probably forgotten more about pizza than I will ever know but I 100% disagree wth that statement. Look at bics of my crusts and tell me they look like bread. I also have done quite a few experiments myself and I "overknead" ...I guess every batch. Outside of my very first batch that I did by hand (before I had a machine, and it was an emergency dough) none have turned out breadlike, not even close.
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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2009, 06:04:38 AM »
Saad,

Can you tell us what tests you conducted as part of your research on this topic, in terms of dough formulation(s) used, mixer used (and types of agitators), knead times and speeds, etc.?

Peter

Pete, unfortunately my research did not include any actual tests due to bread flour shortage as you know. Nonetheless, all of the points I've made are extracted from well backed up bread making books which made lots of sense to me as I read them.  I will share them with you once I have them around, currently I'm at work.

Once I have some bread flour on hand, I will conduct experiments with one recipe to observe the points stated at points 5-7.

I must add that reading about making baguettes and ciabattas is an inspiration as they are very close to pizza dough. Thus I believe when I conduct my experiments, I will be making dough that will be used to make one pie and one baguette to better examine final product characteristics.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 06:09:01 AM by s00da »

Offline UnConundrum

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2009, 09:02:02 AM »
This is the first time I've heard that "air" may play an important role in kneading. I thought the crumb resulted from CO2 released by the yeast and that air was to be avoided as it would oxidize the dough and contribute to loss of flavor.  Obviously air can't be totally avoided, but consideration can be given to exposure to air in the mixing process.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2009, 09:08:36 AM »
Saad, in number 5 you wrote,

"As you continue kneading, air is continually being separated into smaller and more uniform bubbles trapped in the more-entangled gluten network. Stopping where maximum air incorporation achieved is what Tom refers to. As at this point, you have the maximum amount of air that you can achieve and yet, the bubbles are not 100% uniform, thus resulting in an irregular, non-bread like crumb. If you continue past this point you start making bread. If you further knead and develop gluten, you will have a bread dough with a very tight gluten network that hinders expansion."

This is not true. Im sure Tom has probably forgotten more about pizza than I will ever know but I 100% disagree wth that statement. Look at bics of my crusts and tell me they look like bread. I also have done quite a few experiments myself and I "overknead" ...I guess every batch. Outside of my very first batch that I did by hand (before I had a machine, and it was an emergency dough) none have turned out breadlike, not even close.

With regards to point 5 that I posted, I did not say that you will get a breadlike pizza if you "overknead". Actually the continuation to what you quoted is "If you further knead! the rubber bands cannot take more energy and break, thus letting some air bubbles joining again by the means of a damaged gluten network which might produce a slack problematic dough after fermentation." Which means that if you overknead, you will destroy the breadlike gluten network that you created and end up with a dough simulating a "slightly underkneaded" dough as per Tom's recommendation. If you look at scott's post in this thread he said

I know this doesn't make sense, but I have definitely found similar characteristics to both underkneaded and over kneaded doughs, and maybe this partially explains the correl/lehmann differences of opinion.   Both oveer and under mixing produce what I would consider a fairly tough/chewy crust (but with many other dissimilar attributes).  What I shoot for is the most tender crust possible, and this happens when the gluten mesh has become strong enough to trap lots of bubbles (creating maximum rise), but before it is too tight to soften properly during fermentation.

You will see that he also reached a conclusion that when comparing two doughs, one before the maximum gluten development and one passed it, he finds them somehow similar. His notion is in terms of underkneaded and overkneaded while for a slightly-underkneaded and slightly-underkneaded, you should also reach to perfectly usable doughs but with slight differences.

I'm attaching an image that shows what happens to gluten development over time. These images are created using a device called a mixograph. It plots the resistance of the dough against mixing. You see where the peak is? This is the point where you will create a dough that's too stiff to rise. As you can see it's very easy for us at home to miss this point of gluten development. Now to get a bread crumb, you need to be just a little before or beyond this point so you have almost full gluten development, maximum air incorporation and homogenized air bubbles all over the dough. If you widen this window, you will reach at dough suitable for pizza where air bubbles are of different size and non-uniform distribution.

So what I'm trying to say here is that it's hard for you to know where you have ended with your dough on this graph.

Saad

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2009, 09:14:42 AM »
This is the first time I've heard that "air" may play an important role in kneading. I thought the crumb resulted from CO2 released by the yeast and that air was to be avoided as it would oxidize the dough and contribute to loss of flavor.  Obviously air can't be totally avoided, but consideration can be given to exposure to air in the mixing process.

During my readings, I found out that bubbles are not created by CO2. Bubbles are created by incorporating air into dough during mixing where oxygen is consumed initially and you are left with nitrogen bubbles that act as a host for the CO2 that is yet to be created. So if you can create a dough under higher pressure, you will end up with a more open crumb.

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2009, 11:32:01 AM »
Saad, in number 5 you wrote,

"As you continue kneading, air is continually being separated into smaller and more uniform bubbles trapped in the more-entangled gluten network. Stopping where maximum air incorporation achieved is what Tom refers to. As at this point, you have the maximum amount of air that you can achieve and yet, the bubbles are not 100% uniform, thus resulting in an irregular, non-bread like crumb. If you continue past this point you start making bread. If you further knead and develop gluten, you will have a bread dough with a very tight gluten network that hinders expansion."

This is not true. Im sure Tom has probably forgotten more about pizza than I will ever know but I 100% disagree wth that statement. Look at bics of my crusts and tell me they look like bread. I also have done quite a few experiments myself and I "overknead" ...I guess every batch. Outside of my very first batch that I did by hand (before I had a machine, and it was an emergency dough) none have turned out breadlike, not even close.

ThunderStik,

At some point I would like to conduct an experiment or two on long kneads, using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook. I scanned all of your posts to see what mixer speed you use for your long kneads, but could not find the answer. I know that you have a KitchenAid 600 Pro with the spiral hook and that you typically make enough dough to make four pizzas, using sifted flour (at least sometimes), honey (at least sometimes), a thickness factor of around 0.08, and about 25-30 minutes knead time. I believe the flour you have been mostly using is All Trumps high-gluten flour and GM Better for Bread flour.

I also know that you have experimented with knead times of around 50 minutes but that that is not part of your usual regimen. I had wondered about such excessive knead times and their effect on the dough, but according to Peter Reinhart, in his book American Pie, such long knead times are more likely to cause greater harm to your mixer than to your dough. That is also a point that Tom Lehmann has made.

A common theme that runs through just about all of Peter Reinhart's dough recipes in his book is the use of a rest period. Basically, the dough making procedures and times are all pretty much the same for the different dough styles (e.g., New York, American, Neapolitan, etc.). For example, where a stand mixer is used (he does not specify a particular type or use of a spiral hook or C-hook), the procedure is: 1) stir all of the ingredients in the mixer bowl until combined, using a large metal spoon; 2) affix the dough hook and mix on low speed for about 4 minutes or until all of the flour gathers to form a coarse ball; 3) let the dough rest for 5 minutes, and then mix again on medium-low speed for an additional 2 minutes, or until the dough clears the sides of the bowl and sticks just a little to the bottom; and 4) make minor adjustments to flour and water if necessary. At this point, the dough should be tested using the windowpane test. The purpose of the rest period is to allow for better hydration of the flour and to minimize damage to carotenoids because of oxidation from long knead times. Use of the rest period, which I know you have tested at some point, has the effect of shortening the total knead time.

The Reinhart dough recipes typically make about 36-40 ounces of dough. I don't often make that much dough at one time in my mixer but I do have some doubts about being able to make a dough in my mixer that will pass the windowpane test using the mixing and kneading methods in Reinhart's book. By any chance, do you use the windowpane test for your long-kneaded doughs?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 12:46:06 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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