Author Topic: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading  (Read 13570 times)

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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2009, 11:46:49 AM »
Pete, one more thing I like to add. Comparing the cross section in your two experiment, I see that the under-kneaded dough having clearly a more irregular crumb than the over-kneaded dough. Of course this one comparison cannot provide a conclusion as you need more samples to confirm it.

Saad


Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2009, 12:17:40 PM »
When I hear the term "Breadlike" I think of wonder bread or something like that. Like you say "not much resistance to the tooth".  I achieved that with the autolyse but my doughs are not like that at all.

Pete,  

 I usually let the doughs sit for anywhere between 2 and 5 days. My usual IDY is .4% and that gets me a usable window for anytime during the week. If im wanting to go out more than that I use .2%.  If I want it for use the next day its usually around .8. But I do temper this with my hyd%. If im using a higher hyd% I will usually go down an the yeast % and vice-versa, once again pending what time frame I am looking for.  

Thats just what has worked for me and our family eating schedule as we usually like to have Pizza at least 1 day a weak.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 09:59:02 AM by ThunderStik »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2009, 12:21:43 PM »
Saad,

For the last two 14" Lehmann pizzas discussed in this thread, I used 153 grams (5.40 oz. by weight) of sauce and 227 grams (8 oz.) of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese. I diced the mozzarella cheese in my food processor. The sauce was my standard Papa John's clone sauce using the Stanislaus Tomato Magic tomatoes.

With respect to the crumb structure of the two pizzas, I would say that the two pizza crusts were similar but that the overkneaded dough had greater oven spring, which manifested itself both at the rim and the bottom of the crust from the rim to the center. That gave height and created an open and airy, artisan-like effect, albeit one that was marred by the unbaked dough. I'm pretty confident that if I made an overkneaded dough again I would be able to overcome the uncooked dough problem and, at the same time, get a better picture of the nature of the finished crumb structure. However, at this point, based on the photos that ThunderStik has posted of his pizzas made using very long knead times, it would be hard to conclude that the long knead time means that you have to have a tight crumb structure with small, densely packed, like-sized alveoles and cells. I think that ultimately it may come down to what finished crust effect you like best, along with how much time you are willing to devote to the dough making process. I personally like to make my doughs fast and get them into the refrigerator as soon as possible. Having used the ultra-short knead time with the underkneaded dough demonstrated to me that you can still get good results despite the short, and possibly less than optimum, knead time.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2009, 12:33:28 PM »
I usually let the doughs sit for anywhere between 2 and 5 days. My usual IDY is .4% and that gets me a usable window for anytime during the week. If im wanting to go out more than that I use .2%.  If I want it for use the next day its usually around .8. But I do temper this with my hyd%. If im using a higher hyd% I will usually go down an the yeast % and vice-versa, once again pending what time frame I am looking for.  

Thats just what has worked for me and our family eating schedule as we usually like to have Pizza at least 1 day a weak.

ThunderStik,

What you have described tells me that you have developed that "sixth" sense that comes from conducting many experiments in which you adjust the values of everything and note the results you get. That then allows you to adapt your dough recipe and its preparation to fit pretty much whatever window of usability you choose. A newbie reading the above quoted material would wonder what in God's name are you doing and why are you complicating things so much :-D? I guess it is a sign of your addiction.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2009, 01:40:58 PM »
Yeah its definately an addiction, I do love the Pizza there is no doubt about it.

This whole thread/topic though has had me somewhat puzzled though. I have read the articles posted in this thread and what notable Pizza authorities write about kneading and I just dont see the results that I am "supposed" to get from overkneading.

Have a look at this;
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8947.msg77493.html#msg77493

That was still at 30 min knead time. As I have stated before I have had great results from 15-50. The only real notable change to the dough in those times I have has been
1) about 10% more chew.  2) On really long knead times you need to allow an extra day or 2  for the structure to break down.

I think the pro's could be right on but they are dealing with Pro equipment generally in a warmer climate (Kitchen) and dealing with a batch size that none of us can fathom.

I think with just one of those factors our pies could do any number of things much less with all of them.

But I feel that there is no way that anybody can look at that link I just posted above and say that is anything but (at least in my opinion ) a great structure for pizza crust. Yet by all rights its not supposed to turn out that way.

Like I stated earlier though temp/stone temp plays a huge part in the formation of the crumb. Far bigger than what knead times will effect.

Matter of fact stone temp and handling technique play (IMO) the biggest part in that type of crust formation.  Thats why my pies still turn out like that.

Pete I stated to you in an PM a while back that I didnt know why/how I always end up with the nice rim, I just alway did. So I set out to figure it out.
My latest few rounds of temp experiments and trying out different handling techniques has shown me without a doubt that those are the biggest factors.

Even earlier in this thread where the "sir mixalot" printout/graph was posted showed that there is a very broad window for mixing dough. This only reinforces what I have said and shown. I really doubt anybody is going to be able to tell the difference between a dough that is is mixed for 11 min as opposed 14 or 15, how about the diffs between 15 and 20.
I can tell the diff between a 10 min and 30 min, in my own recipe but the diffs are very subtle. But really if you look around we have folks here that do "no knead",  folks that knead by hand, folks that use bread machines, 3-4 different types of mixers and times all in between 5-50. All turning out good pies, at least good looking anyway and ones that I would definately LOVE to try. This should show there there are other much larger factors that come into play other than kneading.

The point of the whole long knead exercise was initially to find out really just what a factor kneading plays as at that time there had been quite few discussions about knead times.

Knowing what I know now, I say at least for me its way down on the list of things to worry about.

 
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2009, 03:04:45 PM »
Like I stated earlier though temp/stone temp plays a huge part in the formation of the crumb. Far bigger than what knead times will effect.

Matter of fact stone temp and handling technique play (IMO) the biggest part in that type of crust formation.  Thats why my pies still turn out like that.


ThunderStik,

It perhaps helps to remind ourselves of the oven arrangement you use, as illustrated at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73660.html#msg73660. My recollection is that you have been using an oven temperature in your gas oven of around 600-630 degrees F. Maybe I have asked this question before, but will you get the same oven spring and finished crust/crumb if you do not use the cast iron skillet as shown in the abovereferenced post?

I'm glad that I did the two experiments with minimal and extended knead times. I learned quite a bit from the experiments that I believe will come in handy at some point. I suspect Saad will also get a lot of useful information from his experiments too.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2009, 04:19:20 PM »
Pete, 
         Yes I will have the same oven spring without the cast iron skillet, the top browning is where the skillet helps out.

I cant tell the exact temp of the stone yet as my current temp gun only goes up to 600, so it just shows a blank screen. I do know that now with the larger stone my oven temp gauge will top out right at 650. Usually the cycles have been been between 620-650.

I believe the size of the stone and the material have had an effect on how hot the oven will get now. Before the new stone the upper limit was about 625-maybe 630. Now im measuring a solid 650+. Also though, I dont know if any of the pics I have up are from pies that were made at that high of a temp. So you cant take that into account when looking at the pics of my pies.

But, I also got the nice oven spring with my thinner/smaller stone also. 


My last couple of batches have been using the same dough fomulation but much less dough and different handling/forming procedures. I have been making 3 balls @16" with a TF of .06 and a ball wiight of 342g.

I wanted a smaller rim and a thinner pie and acheived that. But in doing so tried to pay very close attention to how I was forming the skins.  The way in which you form the skins can have alot to do with how the rim comes out. 
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Offline BurntEdges

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2009, 11:04:42 AM »
The way in which you form the skins can have alot to do with how the rim comes out. 

Could you elaborate on this?  What method do you use to get your desired results?

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2009, 01:08:40 PM »
First the time in which you let the dough warm up can have a large efect on the finished crust.

When you start to form the skin if you just start pressing it flat you will evenly distribute the gasses through the skin. If you start working the very center of the ball first and work from the center out you force all the built up gasses to the outer edges, which become the rim. Once you can get all that gas evenly to the rim your golden. Just add the hot stone.

I work from the center out pressing with my knuckles until I can get it big enough to fly it a bit. But what I dont do is disturb the rim... at all.

If a person uses a rolling pin you will get a flatter less puffy rim.

The same with lower/higher temps. In my opinion you are fighting the time it takes for the very outside skin of the rim to become hard/crusty and non-elastic with how fast you heat up the gasses inside the skin.

The faster you can heat up those gasses, the faster they will expand. If they expand faster than the skin of the crust can solidify you will get a bubble or a pocket.

If you can heat up the gasses really fast you get alot of expansion before the outside can solidify and you get nice big holes. 

At least thats my theory for now. Either way it seems to work for me.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 01:12:40 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2009, 01:34:05 PM »
ThunderStik, that makes a lot of sense. When I make Neapolitan pizza, I avoid touching the rim and always end up with a nice oven spring there. When making 18" NY, the rim sometimes gets big bubbles forming as a result of the gas moving to the edges as I start from the center but I slap-burst these bubbles and end up with less rise. Nonetheless, I like the moderate rise on my NY.

Saad


Offline BurntEdges

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2009, 01:38:51 PM »
First the time in which you let the dough warm up can have a large efect on the finished crust.

Thanks TStik.  What amount of time, I'm assuming at room temperature, do you let your dough warm up to yield your optimum results?

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2009, 01:57:21 PM »
Generally, when I pull the balls out and place them directly on a peice of the counter I have lighlty oiled so they dont stick and cover them with plastic wrap that has been lightly oil sprayed so it doesnt stick either.

My preferred time is about 3 hours sometimes 4. I have done as long as 5 and as short as 1.5 but they are not the norm. This can also change slightly with the ball size though and room temp.

 If you go shorter then the dough is not quite warmed up yet so it doesnt form as easy. If you go longer the dough starts to get more exstensible and  a little too easy to work. At 5hrs it can be a bear but I have done it. But generally I shoot for 3.

My room temp is generally around 76-78.
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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2009, 09:01:54 PM »
Results are in.

In preparation for my first time to use my regular home oven, I went with Pete's setup. I placed my baking stone on the floor of the oven and moved the wire rack to the upper most setting. So I will initially bake the pizza on the stone and move it for few minutes in the upper rack for upper crust browning.

I let the oven on for 60 minutes to reach the maximum possible temperature. For the 60 minutes the 3 doughs were placed in the room temperature of 75 F.

The following information applies on all 3 pizzas:

Stretched to 14" of diameter
Amount of sauce = 220g
Amount of cheese = 250g
Bake time on stone = 6 minutes
Bake time in upper rack = 2 minutes

At the end of the 60 minutes, I eye-balled the height or the 3 doughs and the spread within the plastic container:
1- Regarding the height, I couldn't get a clear image to post but Dough #1 had the shortest peak where Dough #2 and Dough #3 had similarly higher peaks.
2- As for the spread, Dough #1 and Dough #2 were similar and well spread. Dough #3 had clearly less of a spread among the 3.

Looking at the top image view (From left-to-right: Dough #1, Dough #2, Dough #3) of the 3 doughs, you can see how Dough #3 had less of a spread. The comparison of the peaks and spread could be evidence of how a less or more developed gluten matrix play a role in dough expansion and tightness. Dough #1 with a short peak and well spread can be an evidence that the gluten matrix isn't well developed and unable to hold in the gas or the sphere shape of the dough. Also, it is possible that the short peak is attributed to the lack of incorporated air during the short kneading time. Where Dough #2 showing a high peak and good spread is possibly attributed to good gas retaining ability and yet relax enough to allow the dough to spread as much as an under-kneaded dough. As for Dough #3, while it's 10g short in weight which surely gives a less of a comparable spread, it is a little exaggerated. Along with it's high peak, both could be signs of a very tight gluten matrix that is preserving the peak and restricting the dough spread. Still too early to judge.

The oven has reached 575 F, on to baking...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 09:58:13 PM by s00da »

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2009, 09:08:59 PM »
Dough #1 (Under-kneaded)

Baking Stone temperature = 575 F

Handling: The dough was easiest to handle. After opening it, it only needed gravity to stretch it to a skin.
Skin bubbles: Bubbles were few.
Oven Spring: Moderate.
Chewiness: The most chewy among the 3.
Flavor: The pizza tasted under fermented even after 48 hours of cold fermentation.

Evident of the images below, the pizza definitely lacked the oven spring and had a closed crumb in the rim which can be attributed to the lack of air incorporated or the inability of the weak gluten matrix to hold in gas during the fermentation.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 09:24:13 PM by s00da »

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2009, 09:39:13 PM »
Dough #2 (Medium-kneaded)

Baking Stone temperature = 565 F

Handling: As I opened the dough, it clearly showed that it had more bubbles than dough #1. As I pressed with my fingers in the center, bubbles were showing here and there. It was not as extensible as Dough #1 as it need light stretches with the knuckles to get it to the desired size.
Skin bubbles: The skin had many bubbles, this dough was definitely alive.
Oven Spring: The best among the 3. An evidence of the better oven-spring was that this pizza had the best top browning because the rim rose higher and closer to the broiler when I moved it to the upper rack at the end of bake.
Chewiness: The least chewy among the 3.
Flavor: The pizza tasted way much better than the rest. It would be perfect with one more day of fermentation.

This is probably the pizza that shows the difference between an under-kneaded and over-kneaded dough. The rim crumb was much more open than Dough 1 and Dough 2. It probably shows that the dough was had incorporated enough air and yet didn't develop a tight gluten matrix to restrict the oven spring.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:01:48 PM by s00da »

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2009, 09:42:56 PM »
Dough #3 (Over-kneaded)

Baking Stone temperature = 567.5 F

Handling: Handling and stretch the dough was similar to Dough #2 as it need some assistance. What I noticed though was this dough was much smoother. While it was evident that it was puffy, the outer shell of the dough felt firmer and not as weak as Dough #2 and it didn't allow bubbles to be visible. As I pressed with my fingers in the center, it springs back the indents confidently unlike Dough #2 which was friendly.
Skin bubbles: The skin had almost no bubbles, it was very smooth.
Oven Spring: The least oven spring. This is the beauty of this experiment. This is also evident from the slightly less top browning compared to Dough #1.
Chewiness: It was chewy but not as much as Dough #1 and the chewiness was somehow, bouncy?. Also, this pizza had a distinctive bite which I would describe being springy.
Flavor: The pizza tasted something in the middle. Not dull like Dough #1 and yet not as good as Dough #2, it was confusing.

The oven-spring here, being the least and similar to Dough #1 while Dough #2 performed the best tells me that the gluten matrix was too tight to allow it. What gives me confidence to say that is the firmness of the dough as I stretched it to a skin while being puffy, I can feel the air inside well trapped.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:11:39 PM by s00da »

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2009, 10:23:31 PM »
Going back to the post where I explained what I had learned from bread baking books, it seems somethings do apply here where others are hard to apply in the pizza world.

To me know, it is clear how kneading time for pizza dough effects the oven spring and the openness of the crumb.

An under-kneaded dough (Dough #1) has a weak gluten matrix but lacks oven spring and crumb openness due to the lack of air incorporated. Maybe extra fermentation time can help it where I remember that in sabino's post here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg79867.html#msg79867 . I think that the flavor of the crust/crumb showing signs of under-fermentation is an evidence for that.

The medium-kneaded dough (Dough #2) resulted in the pizza with the best oven spring and the most open crumb. To me it demonstrates more air incorporation and a not too firm of a gluten matrix that allowed that result.

The over kneaded dough (Dough #3); while surely did not lack less air incorporation, it definitely didn't have much of an oven spring. Evident of the strong gluten matrix that did not allow it. The smoothness of the skin and the distinctive bite and chew were something I don't think I would like in my pizza.

Regarding the the regularity of the crumb, I was not able to detect any difference and I assume this is the thing that I cannot apply to the pizza world. I could be wrong but I think that the stretching to a skin and pushing the air to the edges, deforms the structure of the air bubbles inside.

If I had to classify the 3 doughs according to the stages of dough development in the mixer, I would say that:

Dough #1 is severely underkneaded
Dough #2 is slightly underkneaded
Dough #3 is well kneaded or closer to the top edge of the mixograph (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9027.msg79564.html#msg79564) because if it was over kneaded as I classified it throughout my experiment, the gluten matrix would again start to weaken and the end result might be similar to the pizza produced from Dough #2 but that did not happen

While this experiment was not to find the best pizza dough in general, I believe that I would pick the characteristics of Dough #2. Also, it is worth it to experiment with allowing Dough #1 to ferment for a longer time and allow more gas production that could potentially result in more crumb openness.

Feedback is greatly appreciated...

Saad

Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2009, 10:28:14 PM »
Saad,

Thank you for running the experiments and posting your results.

Can you tell us how long the three doughs were cold fermented? I scanned your recent posts but did not see the fermentation time.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2009, 10:32:43 PM »
Pete, you are welcome.

All doughs were cold fermented for 48 hours as a stack in the fridge. During the fermentation I rearranged the stack twice to counter the effects of any bad temperature distribution. By the way, I have edited my posts a little so it might be worth it to quickly scan them again for extra
info.

Saad
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:34:17 PM by s00da »

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2009, 12:26:38 PM »
Saad,

I went back and re-read your posts on the experiments you conducted on the three dough balls.

For comparison purposes, I think that it was a good idea for both of us to use very similar dough formulations, dough weights, and baking methods, even though you used a gas oven and I used an electric oven. However, it is clear how difficult it is to conduct scientific experiments in a home setting. You would need three people with three identical mixers making three different dough balls with three different knead times and placing them into a separate cooler unit dedicated to only those three dough balls :). And, even then, you would have delays and possibly three different finished dough temperatures.

As I re-read your posts, I wondered whether Dough #3 would have performed better had it experienced a longer fermentation time. In my case with my overfermented dough, I think I went too far with the fermentation (four days) and perhaps would have gotten better results had I relied more on the actual condition of the dough (as reflected by the volume of fermentation bubbles). Maybe an extra day or two of fermentation time for your Dough #3 would have yielded a better performance for that dough. As you noted, when you poked Dough #3 with your fingers, the depressions disappeared promptly, which is a common sign of an underfermented dough. That apparently did not happen with Dough #2.

Despite the results we achieved, there is still the issue of the effects of a high oven temperature, as ThunderStik and Bill/SFNM (and possibly others) mentioned earlier in this thread.

What I have taken away from our experiments is that a long knead time can affect the fermentation of the dough and, in such a case, it may pay to watch the dough more closely from a volume expansion standpoint (which means using the poppy seeds in my case) and actual development of the dough from the standpoint of the amount of fermentation bubbles formed in the dough. In my case, I usually use transparent plastic or glass containers so it is easy to visually monitor the dough condition as it ferments. I also learned that a dough is fairly forgiving of long knead times and is hard to hurt, which comports with what Peter Reinhart has said in his book American Pie. However, as noted above, this may mean having to be mindful of the effects of the long knead times on the rate of fermentation.

Peter