Author Topic: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading  (Read 16022 times)

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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2009, 02:56:31 AM »
My original recipe uses 5% of water for 19 hours fermentation and 3.5% for 24 hours fermentation.


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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2009, 10:42:23 AM »
The results for my latest dough as initially mentioned in Reply 42 are in. This is the dough that was fairly severely underkneaded, with a total mix/knead time of about 4 ˝-5 ˝ minutes (1-2 minutes of mixing at stir speed with the flat beater attachment and 3 ˝ minutes of kneading with the C-hook at speed 2). This contrasted with about 21-22 minutes of total mix/knead time for the last dough (1-2 minutes of mixing at stir speed with the flat beater and 20 minutes of kneading with the C-hook at speed 2).

Both doughs were prepared essentially identically with the exception that the underkneaded dough was made using water at 46.3 degrees F whereas the overkneaded dough was made using water at 48.2 degrees F. As a result, the finished dough temperature for the underkneaded dough was 78.5 degrees F whereas the finished dough temperature for the overkneaded dough was 86.4 degrees F. Room temperature during preparation of the two doughs was about the same for the two doughs. Both doughs were shaped in the same manner and baked in the same manner.

What surprised me most is that the underkneaded dough expanded at a faster rate than the overkneaded dough. With a lower finished dough temperature, I expected the underkneaded dough to ferment more slowly. Maybe a fully developed gluten structure somehow restrains the fermentation process as compared with a less developed gluten structure.

Here are the timelines and expansion numbers for the two doughs at the times I measured those values:

Overkneaded Dough                                                                                                        Underkneaded Dough
24 hours: no visible expansion (based on the spacing of the two poppy seeds)                          24 hours: 19.95%
48 hours: 42.4%                                                                                                            48 hours: 54.58%
72 hours: 52%                                                                                                               72 hours: 81%
78 hours: 67.5 %                                                                                                           78 hours: 83%
92 hours: 67.5%                                                                                                            92 hours: 95%
96 hours: 81.9% (when pizza was made)                                                                            96 hours: 96% (when pizza was made)

I have no explanation for the patterns and the way the numbers changed over time. Possibly the dough temperatures changed as items were routinely added and removed from the refrigerator in the normal course of the daily use of the refrigerator. 

Once I saw that the underkneaded dough was expanding faster than the overkneaded dough, I had to decide when to use the underkneaded dough. Should I use it when it expanded the same amount as the overkneaded dough, or after the same number of hours, or when it reached the same point visually as the overkneaded dough? When I saw that the underkneaded dough had not fermented visually as much as the overkneaded dough, I decided to use the underkneaded dough at the same time, after 96 hours, as the overkneaded dough. Even then, the underkneaded dough did not have as many fermentation bubbles as the overkneaded dough. When I used the underkneaded dough to form a skin (14”), it was less extensible than the overkneaded dough, as I expected it would be. When the underkneaded dough was dressed and baked, it baked up more completely than the pizza made using the overkneaded dough. That is, there were no underbaked or “pasty” parts. The rim of the underbaked dough was not as large as the overkneaded dough and not as breadlike, but it otherwise looked quite normal for a NY style pizza.

The photos below show the results for the pizza made using the underkneaded dough. As between that dough and the overkneaded dough, I thought that the pizza made with the underkneaded dough was better overall, mainly because it did not have any underbaked areas. Also, the bottom crust, while not overly crispy, was crispier than the pizza made using the overkneaded dough. The crust color and flavors were comparable, except the pizza made with the underkneaded dough seemed to bake a bit faster. I would say that both pizzas were equally chewy. But, given the choice, I would go with the underkneaded dough at this point.

I think it is premature to draw too many conclusions from a test of two doughs, especially since they were not made at the same time. On the one hand, the underkneaded dough fermented more quickly than the overkneaded dough but, on the other hand, at the same final point, after 96 hours, the overkneaded dough was either more overfermented or the protease enzymes were more active in attacking the gluten structure, making the overkneaded dough look and feel overfermented. Also, as noted previously, the crust made from the overkneaded dough had better oven spring. Consequently, I will be interested in Saad’s results for his three dough balls made at about the same time but with different knead times.

Peter

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2009, 10:46:20 AM »
And some slice pics.....

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2009, 05:56:41 PM »
I have just finished preparing the 3 dough balls from one formulation as part of my experiment to understand the effects of knead time on crumb structure. The plan is to make a dough where equal portions will be removed from it at different time intervals. This way I have a consistent dough formulation so results can be more accurately attributed to kneading time. Of course temperature management and fermentation play an important role and I tried my best to compensate.

First of all the recipe %'s using GM Better for Bread (yes finally!):

Flour (100%):
Water (62.04%):
ADY (0.365%):
Salt (1.69%):
Oil (1.095%):
Total (165.19%):
Single Ball:
822.08 g  |  29 oz | 1.81 lbs
510.02 g  |  17.99 oz | 1.12 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
13.89 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
1358 g | 47.9 oz | 2.99 lbs | TF = 0.103724
452.67 g | 15.97 oz | 1 lbs

A couple of notes on the dough:
1-  This is the first time I make dough using EVOO (except for high hydration Sicilian) because I'm intending to use my home oven. I'm avoiding my high temp oven because I know it has bad heat distribution and it's kind of hard to stabilize the temperature to bake the three pizzas equally.
2- I thought using ADY would be a good idea since it will be in liquid form; thus it will be much easier to get distributed evenly throughout the dough.
3- Even though I was playing it safe and planning on 3 balls of 444g each, I still ended up with 444g, 444g and 434g. Too bad  >:(

Mixing in order:
1- Dissolve salt in water at 45 F.
2- Add EVOO and just a small portion of the flour and mix on low speed with the flat beater until a very wet batter.
3- Add ADY after being hydrated for 10 mines and mix for 1 more minute. Now I have nice mixture where salt, EVOO and ADY are well mixed.
4- Now I add rest of the flour at once avoiding my usual gradual incorporation so dough hydration is consistent for all the dough balls. Mixing with the flat beater on slow for less than a minute until a very shaggy looking mixture. Here, I assume the end of the mixing stage where minimal gluten development took place.
5- Switched to c-hook and started kneading the dough at speed 2. The same speed is used until the end.
10- At 5 minutes, 444g of the dough is removed, formed into a ball and placed in a plastic container. I placed it at room temperature since the upcoming dough balls will be subjected to extra temperature due to more kneading.
11- Kneading is continued at speed 2 for 10 more minute. At the 15th minute, another 444g of the dough is removed, formed into a ball and placed in a plastic container. I also placed this one in room temperature.
12- Kneading for 10 more minutes. At the 25th minute, the final dough ball at 434g is formed into a ball, placed in a plastic container and directly into the fridge. Following after 5 minutes, the second dough went into the fridge and after another 5 minutes the initial dough went into the fridge. I thought placing them in the fridge in reverse order will help compensate for the ending temperature difference, even though I didn't measure it  :P I know, very unprofessional for such an experiment but I got lazy.

Next, some images...

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2009, 06:00:21 PM »
The first image is of the wet mixture that included salt, EVOO, ADY and a small portion of the recipe's flour. The idea of the mixture is to have the ingredients more distributed this way rather than using IDY in the middle of the kneading for example.

The second image is of the end of the mixing stage. From here I switch to the c-hook and begin gluten development.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2009, 06:17:41 PM »
Images in sequence:
1- Dough at the 5th minute looking very rough.
2- Dough ball #1. The dough felt kind of stiff and looks bumpy in the image.
3- Dough at the 15th minute looking smoother.
4- Dough ball #2. The dough felt softer and looked smooth when formed into a ball.
5- Dough at the 25th minute does not look much different from at the 15th minute.
6- Dough ball #3. The dough felt very similar to Dough ball #2, maybe just a tiny bit softer.

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2009, 06:26:11 PM »
Final image of all dough balls into the fridge. The Ischia is saying hello.

Final notes:

Through out the kneading and from how the dough felt I would probably change kneading times due to the fact that the mixer's kneading efficiency was decreasing as the dough is becoming smaller in size. For the last dough ball, I don't think much kneading was happening as the dough was mostly just being tossed around in the bowl.

If I had to do the experiment again, I would change kneading to:
1- 5 minutes for Dough ball #1.
2- 15 minutes for Dough ball #2.
3- 10 minutes hand-kneading for Dough ball #3.

Will be taking an image tomorrow of dough balls side by side to compare expansion. All containers were numbered accordingly.

Saad

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2009, 10:28:29 AM »
Pete, Sooda,

    Petes observations about the gluten structure "containing" the ferm process is also my findings. I have also tried underkneading before and found I didnt like how quickly the ferm process geared up. I believe its because of the available moisture that has not been fully integrated coupled with the less restrictive struncture of the underkneaded dough. But that is just my opinion.

What makes me believe that is a batch that I made a couple of months ago. I had the balls in the fridge in an airtight container. They had been in for a few days and I wanted to check on them. Usually I dont "pop the top", but this day I did. When the lid was popped the ball literally grew by... just guesstimating 60%.  This made me think that the skin and fully developed structure may have the same effect as the lid.

In contrast to Pete's findings though, I have never had doughy spots in my dough. Nor is my structure bread-like, I have acheived that with an autolyse and didnt care for it at all. I will say that I do get a bit of extra chew though, and I like it that way. I also get a well done bottom but I suspect that is just differences in baking tools and technique.

Another difference is that I usually make 3-4 balls for 14" and lately(last 1-2 months) its been 16" as I have a new larger stone now.

But with enough dough for 3-4 16" balls it would take longer to get a thorough mix than with 1 12" as the work is concentrated on a smaller amount of dough.

Also my "go to" recipe is.

60% hydration with no oil and my oven gets pretty hot but I dont always go full blast (but all the pics I have up on this site are with the oven running full though).

I have also found differences in what different flours "like", the word "like" meaning the amount of work they need to feel "properly" to me.

Let me preface the following with this discalaimer. I have never been to New York or traveled around and eaten what is considered "good Pizza". Nor have I handled any professional dough.

All trumps needed much less working to feel like a "proper" dough to me and would not take the beating or overkneeding that others would. I can see why this would be a good pro flour for businesses as it doesnt need a really long kneading session.

Gold medal BFB needs more, guessing about 30+% but I like this flour better as it takes the heat better and controls the ferm process better IMO. Has a good flavor IMO

Pillsbury Bread, needs less work than BFB , makes a different color crust and has (to me) less flavor than the BFB.

I dont have access to the KA flours as I would like to try them. If you want to send some Pete I will make a few pies with it. But outside of that those are the only flours I have easily available to work with.

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2009, 11:20:16 AM »
ThunderStik and Saad,

Another interesting phenomenon I witnessed is how both doughs peaked in terms of expansion. I ordinarily don't let a routine Lehmann NY style dough go for 4 days, so I wasn't expecting the doughs to peak and just sit there for quite a while--for several hours, actually. As it turns out, the overkneaded dough peaked sooner than the underkneaded dough. You will see from the data I posted that eventually both dough balls rose some more but it is important to note that I was eyeballing the spacing between the two poppy seeds and an increase in spacing of as little as 1/32" can translate into a rise of over 10%. So, even though I calibrated my eyeballs, there can easily be a reading error. But, even then, the overkneaded dough peaked much sooner than the underkneaded dough.

I am often hesitant to use the term "bread-like" since semantically it can mean different things to different people. I once tried to define the term at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62715/topicseen.html#msg62715 as a crust/crumb that is "soft, quite airy (fluffy), and not particularly chewy (i.e., offering little resistance to the tooth), much like a basic non-artisan supermarket bread." That definition also evolved out of my work with natural starters/preferments that had their own positive effects on the texture of the crust/crumb, specifically, a spring-like or rubber-band effect when you tug and pull on the crumb.

The King Arthur flour that I use is the King Arthur bread flour. It is sold in many regular supermarkets, like Kroger's (in my area) and by more upscale markets, like Whole Foods. I used to use the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour--which I assume you were thinking of--but found that the KABF worked fine for my purposes (plus I can supplement it with vital wheat gluten if I want to raise its protein content).

Peter


Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2009, 11:42:26 AM »
Pete,

It is very possible that due to the well developed gluten matrix in the over-kneaded dough, the gas was retained better and resulting in the earlier peak.

While my doughs are still in the fridge and haven't completed even a 24 hours fermentation period, I wanted to ask you a question as I never made 14 inch pizzas while it seems like your standard size. For consistency purposes, I wonder if you can tell me the amount of sauce and cheese you use for the 14 inch?

Saad

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2009, 11:46:49 AM »
Pete, one more thing I like to add. Comparing the cross section in your two experiment, I see that the under-kneaded dough having clearly a more irregular crumb than the over-kneaded dough. Of course this one comparison cannot provide a conclusion as you need more samples to confirm it.

Saad

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2009, 12:17:40 PM »
When I hear the term "Breadlike" I think of wonder bread or something like that. Like you say "not much resistance to the tooth".  I achieved that with the autolyse but my doughs are not like that at all.

Pete,  

 I usually let the doughs sit for anywhere between 2 and 5 days. My usual IDY is .4% and that gets me a usable window for anytime during the week. If im wanting to go out more than that I use .2%.  If I want it for use the next day its usually around .8. But I do temper this with my hyd%. If im using a higher hyd% I will usually go down an the yeast % and vice-versa, once again pending what time frame I am looking for.  

Thats just what has worked for me and our family eating schedule as we usually like to have Pizza at least 1 day a weak.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 09:59:02 AM by ThunderStik »
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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2009, 12:21:43 PM »
Saad,

For the last two 14" Lehmann pizzas discussed in this thread, I used 153 grams (5.40 oz. by weight) of sauce and 227 grams (8 oz.) of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese. I diced the mozzarella cheese in my food processor. The sauce was my standard Papa John's clone sauce using the Stanislaus Tomato Magic tomatoes.

With respect to the crumb structure of the two pizzas, I would say that the two pizza crusts were similar but that the overkneaded dough had greater oven spring, which manifested itself both at the rim and the bottom of the crust from the rim to the center. That gave height and created an open and airy, artisan-like effect, albeit one that was marred by the unbaked dough. I'm pretty confident that if I made an overkneaded dough again I would be able to overcome the uncooked dough problem and, at the same time, get a better picture of the nature of the finished crumb structure. However, at this point, based on the photos that ThunderStik has posted of his pizzas made using very long knead times, it would be hard to conclude that the long knead time means that you have to have a tight crumb structure with small, densely packed, like-sized alveoles and cells. I think that ultimately it may come down to what finished crust effect you like best, along with how much time you are willing to devote to the dough making process. I personally like to make my doughs fast and get them into the refrigerator as soon as possible. Having used the ultra-short knead time with the underkneaded dough demonstrated to me that you can still get good results despite the short, and possibly less than optimum, knead time.

Peter

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2009, 12:33:28 PM »
I usually let the doughs sit for anywhere between 2 and 5 days. My usual IDY is .4% and that gets me a usable window for anytime during the week. If im wanting to go out more than that I use .2%.  If I want it for use the next day its usually around .8. But I do temper this with my hyd%. If im using a higher hyd% I will usually go down an the yeast % and vice-versa, once again pending what time frame I am looking for.  

Thats just what has worked for me and our family eating schedule as we usually like to have Pizza at least 1 day a weak.

ThunderStik,

What you have described tells me that you have developed that "sixth" sense that comes from conducting many experiments in which you adjust the values of everything and note the results you get. That then allows you to adapt your dough recipe and its preparation to fit pretty much whatever window of usability you choose. A newbie reading the above quoted material would wonder what in God's name are you doing and why are you complicating things so much :-D? I guess it is a sign of your addiction.

Peter

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2009, 01:40:58 PM »
Yeah its definately an addiction, I do love the Pizza there is no doubt about it.

This whole thread/topic though has had me somewhat puzzled though. I have read the articles posted in this thread and what notable Pizza authorities write about kneading and I just dont see the results that I am "supposed" to get from overkneading.

Have a look at this;
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8947.msg77493.html#msg77493

That was still at 30 min knead time. As I have stated before I have had great results from 15-50. The only real notable change to the dough in those times I have has been
1) about 10% more chew.  2) On really long knead times you need to allow an extra day or 2  for the structure to break down.

I think the pro's could be right on but they are dealing with Pro equipment generally in a warmer climate (Kitchen) and dealing with a batch size that none of us can fathom.

I think with just one of those factors our pies could do any number of things much less with all of them.

But I feel that there is no way that anybody can look at that link I just posted above and say that is anything but (at least in my opinion ) a great structure for pizza crust. Yet by all rights its not supposed to turn out that way.

Like I stated earlier though temp/stone temp plays a huge part in the formation of the crumb. Far bigger than what knead times will effect.

Matter of fact stone temp and handling technique play (IMO) the biggest part in that type of crust formation.  Thats why my pies still turn out like that.

Pete I stated to you in an PM a while back that I didnt know why/how I always end up with the nice rim, I just alway did. So I set out to figure it out.
My latest few rounds of temp experiments and trying out different handling techniques has shown me without a doubt that those are the biggest factors.

Even earlier in this thread where the "sir mixalot" printout/graph was posted showed that there is a very broad window for mixing dough. This only reinforces what I have said and shown. I really doubt anybody is going to be able to tell the difference between a dough that is is mixed for 11 min as opposed 14 or 15, how about the diffs between 15 and 20.
I can tell the diff between a 10 min and 30 min, in my own recipe but the diffs are very subtle. But really if you look around we have folks here that do "no knead",  folks that knead by hand, folks that use bread machines, 3-4 different types of mixers and times all in between 5-50. All turning out good pies, at least good looking anyway and ones that I would definately LOVE to try. This should show there there are other much larger factors that come into play other than kneading.

The point of the whole long knead exercise was initially to find out really just what a factor kneading plays as at that time there had been quite few discussions about knead times.

Knowing what I know now, I say at least for me its way down on the list of things to worry about.

 
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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2009, 03:04:45 PM »
Like I stated earlier though temp/stone temp plays a huge part in the formation of the crumb. Far bigger than what knead times will effect.

Matter of fact stone temp and handling technique play (IMO) the biggest part in that type of crust formation.  Thats why my pies still turn out like that.

ThunderStik,

It perhaps helps to remind ourselves of the oven arrangement you use, as illustrated at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8516.msg73660.html#msg73660. My recollection is that you have been using an oven temperature in your gas oven of around 600-630 degrees F. Maybe I have asked this question before, but will you get the same oven spring and finished crust/crumb if you do not use the cast iron skillet as shown in the abovereferenced post?

I'm glad that I did the two experiments with minimal and extended knead times. I learned quite a bit from the experiments that I believe will come in handy at some point. I suspect Saad will also get a lot of useful information from his experiments too.

Peter

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2009, 04:19:20 PM »
Pete, 
         Yes I will have the same oven spring without the cast iron skillet, the top browning is where the skillet helps out.

I cant tell the exact temp of the stone yet as my current temp gun only goes up to 600, so it just shows a blank screen. I do know that now with the larger stone my oven temp gauge will top out right at 650. Usually the cycles have been been between 620-650.

I believe the size of the stone and the material have had an effect on how hot the oven will get now. Before the new stone the upper limit was about 625-maybe 630. Now im measuring a solid 650+. Also though, I dont know if any of the pics I have up are from pies that were made at that high of a temp. So you cant take that into account when looking at the pics of my pies.

But, I also got the nice oven spring with my thinner/smaller stone also. 


My last couple of batches have been using the same dough fomulation but much less dough and different handling/forming procedures. I have been making 3 balls @16" with a TF of .06 and a ball wiight of 342g.

I wanted a smaller rim and a thinner pie and acheived that. But in doing so tried to pay very close attention to how I was forming the skins.  The way in which you form the skins can have alot to do with how the rim comes out. 
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Offline BurntEdges

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2009, 11:04:42 AM »
The way in which you form the skins can have alot to do with how the rim comes out. 

Could you elaborate on this?  What method do you use to get your desired results?

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2009, 01:08:40 PM »
First the time in which you let the dough warm up can have a large efect on the finished crust.

When you start to form the skin if you just start pressing it flat you will evenly distribute the gasses through the skin. If you start working the very center of the ball first and work from the center out you force all the built up gasses to the outer edges, which become the rim. Once you can get all that gas evenly to the rim your golden. Just add the hot stone.

I work from the center out pressing with my knuckles until I can get it big enough to fly it a bit. But what I dont do is disturb the rim... at all.

If a person uses a rolling pin you will get a flatter less puffy rim.

The same with lower/higher temps. In my opinion you are fighting the time it takes for the very outside skin of the rim to become hard/crusty and non-elastic with how fast you heat up the gasses inside the skin.

The faster you can heat up those gasses, the faster they will expand. If they expand faster than the skin of the crust can solidify you will get a bubble or a pocket.

If you can heat up the gasses really fast you get alot of expansion before the outside can solidify and you get nice big holes. 

At least thats my theory for now. Either way it seems to work for me.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 01:12:40 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2009, 01:34:05 PM »
ThunderStik, that makes a lot of sense. When I make Neapolitan pizza, I avoid touching the rim and always end up with a nice oven spring there. When making 18" NY, the rim sometimes gets big bubbles forming as a result of the gas moving to the edges as I start from the center but I slap-burst these bubbles and end up with less rise. Nonetheless, I like the moderate rise on my NY.

Saad

Offline BurntEdges

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2009, 01:38:51 PM »
First the time in which you let the dough warm up can have a large efect on the finished crust.

Thanks TStik.  What amount of time, I'm assuming at room temperature, do you let your dough warm up to yield your optimum results?

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2009, 01:57:21 PM »
Generally, when I pull the balls out and place them directly on a peice of the counter I have lighlty oiled so they dont stick and cover them with plastic wrap that has been lightly oil sprayed so it doesnt stick either.

My preferred time is about 3 hours sometimes 4. I have done as long as 5 and as short as 1.5 but they are not the norm. This can also change slightly with the ball size though and room temp.

 If you go shorter then the dough is not quite warmed up yet so it doesnt form as easy. If you go longer the dough starts to get more exstensible and  a little too easy to work. At 5hrs it can be a bear but I have done it. But generally I shoot for 3.

My room temp is generally around 76-78.
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PIZZA THAN ANYBODY!!!!!!!

(in my house)

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2009, 09:01:54 PM »
Results are in.

In preparation for my first time to use my regular home oven, I went with Pete's setup. I placed my baking stone on the floor of the oven and moved the wire rack to the upper most setting. So I will initially bake the pizza on the stone and move it for few minutes in the upper rack for upper crust browning.

I let the oven on for 60 minutes to reach the maximum possible temperature. For the 60 minutes the 3 doughs were placed in the room temperature of 75 F.

The following information applies on all 3 pizzas:

Stretched to 14" of diameter
Amount of sauce = 220g
Amount of cheese = 250g
Bake time on stone = 6 minutes
Bake time in upper rack = 2 minutes

At the end of the 60 minutes, I eye-balled the height or the 3 doughs and the spread within the plastic container:
1- Regarding the height, I couldn't get a clear image to post but Dough #1 had the shortest peak where Dough #2 and Dough #3 had similarly higher peaks.
2- As for the spread, Dough #1 and Dough #2 were similar and well spread. Dough #3 had clearly less of a spread among the 3.

Looking at the top image view (From left-to-right: Dough #1, Dough #2, Dough #3) of the 3 doughs, you can see how Dough #3 had less of a spread. The comparison of the peaks and spread could be evidence of how a less or more developed gluten matrix play a role in dough expansion and tightness. Dough #1 with a short peak and well spread can be an evidence that the gluten matrix isn't well developed and unable to hold in the gas or the sphere shape of the dough. Also, it is possible that the short peak is attributed to the lack of incorporated air during the short kneading time. Where Dough #2 showing a high peak and good spread is possibly attributed to good gas retaining ability and yet relax enough to allow the dough to spread as much as an under-kneaded dough. As for Dough #3, while it's 10g short in weight which surely gives a less of a comparable spread, it is a little exaggerated. Along with it's high peak, both could be signs of a very tight gluten matrix that is preserving the peak and restricting the dough spread. Still too early to judge.

The oven has reached 575 F, on to baking...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 09:58:13 PM by s00da »

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2009, 09:08:59 PM »
Dough #1 (Under-kneaded)

Baking Stone temperature = 575 F

Handling: The dough was easiest to handle. After opening it, it only needed gravity to stretch it to a skin.
Skin bubbles: Bubbles were few.
Oven Spring: Moderate.
Chewiness: The most chewy among the 3.
Flavor: The pizza tasted under fermented even after 48 hours of cold fermentation.

Evident of the images below, the pizza definitely lacked the oven spring and had a closed crumb in the rim which can be attributed to the lack of air incorporated or the inability of the weak gluten matrix to hold in gas during the fermentation.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 09:24:13 PM by s00da »

Offline s00da

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Re: @Pete-zza: Pizza Dough Under-Kneading
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2009, 09:39:13 PM »
Dough #2 (Medium-kneaded)

Baking Stone temperature = 565 F

Handling: As I opened the dough, it clearly showed that it had more bubbles than dough #1. As I pressed with my fingers in the center, bubbles were showing here and there. It was not as extensible as Dough #1 as it need light stretches with the knuckles to get it to the desired size.
Skin bubbles: The skin had many bubbles, this dough was definitely alive.
Oven Spring: The best among the 3. An evidence of the better oven-spring was that this pizza had the best top browning because the rim rose higher and closer to the broiler when I moved it to the upper rack at the end of bake.
Chewiness: The least chewy among the 3.
Flavor: The pizza tasted way much better than the rest. It would be perfect with one more day of fermentation.

This is probably the pizza that shows the difference between an under-kneaded and over-kneaded dough. The rim crumb was much more open than Dough 1 and Dough 2. It probably shows that the dough was had incorporated enough air and yet didn't develop a tight gluten matrix to restrict the oven spring.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:01:48 PM by s00da »