Author Topic: NJ Boardwalk Pizza  (Read 173645 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2010, 10:02:13 AM »
Norma

My espionage will continue.  I am down  the shore every weekend and will continue my "Research".




ERASMO,

Great to hear your espionage will continue.  ;D  I hope I also can get some information if I can get to Mack's.  I am still wondering about the cheddar, because in my opinion the mild cheddar wasn't strong enough.

Thanks for all your help,

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2010, 12:06:28 PM »
Norma,

After looking at the video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc</a>
several times, I wondered whether a plastic squeeze bottle might be usable to "hose" the sauce onto a pizza in a series of circular/spiral motions. So, I took my small Wilton squeeze bottle, as shown below, and filled it with a pizza sauce that I felt had roughly the same consistency as the Mack's pizza sauce that I saw in the video. This is the same squeeze bottle that I used to make the Papa John's clone dessert pizzas. I did not alter the size of the opening of the tip. It is 1/8" in diameter.

I found that I was able squeeze the bottle to deposit the sauce on a recent pizza (14") in a fairly steady stream much the same way as is shown in the video. Of course, for a large pizza requiring a fair amount of sauce, I would have to use a larger squeeze bottle.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2010, 01:17:39 PM »
Peter,

Thank you again for being creative and thinking of using a plastic squeeze bottle to simulate a “hose”, in applying the sauce.  I have two squeeze bottles at market and will measure the diameter of the tip.  Your idea is great!  :)

Norma
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Offline scott r

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2010, 11:54:23 PM »
yes good call peter!   time for me to find a really big squeeze bottle.

Norma, going way back in the thread... No, I have never had mack and mancos pizza, but I have heard all about it for years from many of my friends.   To me its sort of like the Pepe's and Sally's of southern Jersey.  It seems that if you are from the area you know it and you crave it!

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2010, 09:01:35 PM »
Norma,

Curiosity got the better of me so I decided to conduct a couple of experiments to make a Mack’s basic cheese pizza even though I have never had a Mack’s pizza.

My first attempt was to see if I could make a robust Mack’s clone dough for a 14” pizza using all-purpose flour. I have made robust all-purpose doughs before that handled like the doughs in the YouTube video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc</a>
but not with any consistency. I managed to make a pizza with the dough but thought that the finished crust was only so-so from a flavor and texture standpoint and that it was perhaps unlikely that Mack’s uses all-purpose flour.

My next effort was to make a dough using the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) as supplemented with Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (VWG) to achieve an effective protein content for the blend of 14.4%, which is a bit more than the 14.2% protein content of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour. To do the allocation, I used November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. For this effort, I assumed that a Mack’s pizza is an 18” pizza. So I decided to make a dough ball for that size. I elected to use a 21-ounce dough ball, which translates to a thickness factor of 0.082525. I will have more to say about the thickness factor later.

The dough formulation I decided to use is the following one, based on the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.22%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (164.72%):
370.47 g  |  13.07 oz | 0.82 lbs
214.87 g  |  7.58 oz | 0.47 lbs
0.82 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
7.41 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
11.11 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.45 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.39 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
610.23 g | 21.52 oz | 1.35 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 21-ounce dough ball for a single 18” pizza (with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.082525); bowl residue compensation = 2.5%.
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 358.79 grams (12.66 ounces) KABF and 11.69 grams (0.41 ounces) Hodgson Mill VWG (about 3.9 teaspoons)

To prepare the dough, I used the basic methods and techniques as described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. I used this approach because I have found it to produce a more robust dough than I have made using other methods. For the Mack’s application, I thought that getting a robust dough was essential if I were to endeavor to simulate the Mack dough handling methods. In keeping with this objective, I selected a hydration of 58% to achieve a dough that would be easy to handle and not be overly extensible. The yeast quantity, at 0.22%, was selected to allow a cold fermentation of about 2-3 days, but with a possibility of going out another day or so. I used some sugar in the dough in the event I decided to go beyond two days.

To make the dough, I started by sifting the KABF and the VWG. I then placed the formula water, at around 51.5 degrees F, into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer (with a C-hook). With the mixer at stir speed and with the whisk attached, I gradually added the KABF/VWG blend to the mixer bowl until the whisk started to labor and to groan, about 2 ˝ minutes. I then switched to the flat beater attachment, and with the mixer still at stir speed, I gradually added the remaining KABF/VWG blend. Because of the relatively low hydration of the dough, at 58%, I found it necessary to intervene from time to time to manually help form the dough into a fairly cohesive mass, particularly when the flat beater attachment started to bog down. This part of the exercise took about 2 minutes. I then switched to the C-hook and, with the mixer at speed 2, I added the oil, salt and sugar to the mixer bowl. After these ingredients were mixed into the dough, I added the IDY. The dough was then kneaded for about 12 minutes. I had to again intervene in the process but the dough ultimately came together into a smooth, cohesive mass. I hand kneaded the final dough for about 30 seconds and shaped it into a round ball. The finished dough temperature was 77.2 degrees F. I oiled the dough ball lightly and placed two poppy seeds space apart by one inch at the center of the top of the dough ball. To simulate Mack’s use of a sheet pan and “body bag” fermentation approach, I used a metal cookie tin and secured a sheet of plastic wrap over the cookie tin, using a rubber band for this purpose.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for almost 3 days. After 24 hours, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggested a roughly 42% rise. After 48 hours, the dough ball had almost doubled in volume. After about 67 hours, when I brought the dough out of the refrigerator to warm up at room temperature (about 76 degrees F), the dough ball had increased in volume by an additional 25%. The dough remained at room temperature for about 1 ˝ hours. At this time, I shaped and stretched the dough ball into an 18” skin. I had no trouble doing this. The dough was a bit elastic and it wasn’t as robust as the dough shown in the abovereferenced video, but I managed to open up the dough ball and to slap and stretch the dough to form the 18” skin. I was also able to toss the dough skin. There were some fermentation bubbles in the skin as I formed it but they were on the small side. The Mack’s dough in the video does not have any visible fermentation bubbles that I could detect.

As you know, I cannot bake an 18” on my 14” x 16” pizza stone. So, as I have done many times before with an oversized skin, I used an 18” pizza screen in conjunction with the abovementioned pizza stone. The baking approach I decided to use was to start the bake of the pizza on the lowest oven rack position of my electric oven and to shift it onto the pizza stone, which was placed on the topmost oven rack position. The oven was preheated for about an hour at around 525 degrees F. From time to time during the oven warm-up time, I turned on the broiler to apply more top heat to the pizza stone.

As the oven was getting ready for my pizza, I dressed the 18” skin on the screen. To get a better idea as to the amount of sauce and cheese to use, I watched the abovementioned video several times, watching every hand movement until I had them memorized. For the sauce, I used the Wal-Mart Great Value crushed tomatoes. Since the crushed tomatoes had small chunks, I found it necessary to use my stick blender to make the sauce as smooth as possible. This was important since I planned to use my small plastic squeeze bottle (shown in an earlier post) to dispense the sauce on the pizza and I did not want any of the chunks to clog the nozzle of the squeeze bottle. To the crushed tomatoes, I added dried oregano, garlic powder and sugar. This was not an attempt to simulate the Mack’s sauce, which uses a different tomato product. It was just a simple sauce to use for the experiment. Based on my review of the video, I estimated that about 7 ounces of sauce is used for an 18” Mack’s pizza. It could be more, but I would need more information on the nature of the sauce actually used by Mack's.

For the cheese, I used a blend of shredded extra sharp NY white cheddar cheese and shredded low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese. My best estimate of the total amount of cheese used for a Mack’s 18” cheese pizza was about 8 ounces. I used mostly white cheddar cheese for the blend, maybe 90-95%. I used the mozzarella cheese just to soften the flavor of the extra sharp white cheddar cheese.

I dressed the pizza in the way shown in the video, starting with a first layer of the cheese blend (a large fistful), then the pizza sauce, which I dispensed in a circular spiral pattern using the squeeze bottle, and finally the second layer of the cheese blend (another large fistful). I would say that the two applications of the cheese blend were about the same. The only problem I experienced was that some of the sauce clogged the nozzle of the squeeze bottle and splattered onto the pizza below the nozzle. That is why it is important that the sauce be very smooth if a squeeze bottle is to be used. But, in the end, the dressed pizza looked to me to be very similar to what is shown in the video. Unfortunately, I didn’t think to take a photo of the dressed pizza. The total unbaked pizza weight was 1023 grams, or about 36 ounces.

The dressed pizza was baked on the screen on the lowest oven rack position for about 5 minutes. I then moved the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto the preheated pizza stone on the topmost oven rack position. The top heating coil kept coming on and off but the pizza did not seem to be harmed by that action. The pizza was perhaps at the topmost oven rack position for about 3 minutes. Were I to attempt another 18” Mack’s clone pizza, I think I would use the method I usually use to make oversized pizzas and start the pizza on the 18” screen at a top oven rack position and shift it onto the pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position. The method I used, while ultimately successful, did not strike me as being the most reliable one to use.

The photos below show the finished pizza. I thought that the pizza was excellent. The pizza looked like a NY style pizza but the crust was almost cracker-like in part, especially at the rim and the crust near the rim. The crust was also generally crispy and chewy, and there were a few large bubbles in the rim and a fair amount of blistering. The slices started out a bit on the limp side but stiffened as they cooled. When the pizza came out of the oven, oil from the slices dripped onto my paper plate. The cheddar cheese flavor was dominant, but quite enjoyable.

In terms of possible changes, I think I would use less dough next time. The dough I made seemed to be more than what I saw in the video. I think I would use a thickness factor of around 0.072, or something like that, and adjust further if necessary for future experiments. A less sharp cheddar cheese might also be in order. In your case, you should use the pizza sauce that Steve picked out for you. However, there was nothing wrong with the sauce I used. It is a good, generic sauce that is useful for experiments like this one.

Peter

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #105 on: April 29, 2010, 09:08:03 PM »
And some slice pics...

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #106 on: April 29, 2010, 10:10:33 PM »
Peter,

I want to thank you for also going along in experimenting with Mack’s clone pizza. I am glad you are curious.  Your details or so helpful and even you describing the pie, make me want to try a slice.  I am so hungry for a slice of Mack’s pie. 

I never tried to make an 18" pizza, so I don’t know how good I would be at trying one.  It sounds like you now don’t think they might be using all-purpose flour, since you didn’t really like the taste of the crust.  When Steve and I tried the Mack’s clone on Tuesday, I thought the crust had a good flavor, but then it had been cold fermented for 4 days. I think they must be using some kind of high-gluten flour, that is bromated, because that’s what most pizza shops use.  Most likely it would be All Trumps. 

Since I used about the same approach to making the dough as your second experiment, I can now see how that creates a robust dough.  It is interesting that you added sugar to your dough and also had a higher amount of oil.  Your other ingredients were a little different than mine.  I wonder how you can ever determine just what they might be using, when I don’t believe we will ever know.  I also saw some small fermentation bubbles in the skin.  When I am trying to think about what they might be doing, I can’t believe they would be going for any amount of cold ferment over 2 days, in my opinion.

I also believe the Wal-Mart Value crushed tomatoes were a good choice, because I have used them before and they tasted good.  The Gangi sauce almost had a bitter or sour taste, but after the pizza was baked, the sauce didn’t taste bitter or sour.  I preferred the Full Red for my taste.

It is interesting you use almost all sharp-white cheddar, with some mozzarella and you found the taste was good.  I would have thought the taste of the sharp would have been too strong.  I try to imagine what they might be buying, because in my experience with the mild white cheddar it is about .55 to .60 cents more a pound.  I will have to ask my supplier how much the sharp white cheddar is.  I have to place an order for this Tuesday, so I will be able to find out that information. 

I am also happy you found the taste of the pie excellent.  :)  Did you ever use a blend with so much sharp white cheddar before?  Maybe you have tasted something I want to try again..like a Mack’s pizza.  Your finished pie looks great. Did you like that greasy, gooey, dripping cheese from the pizza?

Thank you for going into all the details,

Norma
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Offline DavePZ

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2010, 09:08:14 AM »
Norma/Peter/Everyone else who is posting on this thread -

I am checking this post every day, waiting with baited breath for someone to crack the code!

One comment on the squeeze bottle. I have used a squeeze bottle in the past to apply sauce, and what I had to do to prevent clogging, was to cut the length of the tip down a little, which opens up the hole size, and prevents clogging. Just a thought.

Thanks!
DavePZ

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #108 on: April 30, 2010, 10:03:43 AM »
Norma/Peter/Everyone else who is posting on this thread -

I am checking this post every day, waiting with baited breath for someone to crack the code!

One comment on the squeeze bottle. I have used a squeeze bottle in the past to apply sauce, and what I had to do to prevent clogging, was to cut the length of the tip down a little, which opens up the hole size, and prevents clogging. Just a thought.

Thanks!
DavePZ

DavePZ,

Thanks for the added tip.  :) Your thought is good. 

I also would like to be able to crack this, but only time will tell, if we will be successful or not.  With everyone that is helping maybe there is a possibility that we can do this.

Stay tuned,  :pizza:

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2010, 10:43:26 AM »
Norma,

It will always be difficult to reverse engineer a pizza without good information, like insider information, dumpster diving information, ingredients lists and Nutrition Facts, and you are unlikely to get ingredients lists or Nutrition Facts from a small outfit like Mack's (or its sister pizzerias) because there is no legal requirement or pressure for them to disclose that type of information. Even then, a dough formulation can tolerate fairly wide variations without materially altering the finished product. I found this true with the Papa John's clones that I played around with. In my Mack's experiment I just tried to get the proper "look and feel" (dough weight, pizza size, thickness factor, amounts and placements of sauce, cheese, fermentation window, etc.). If I can get that right, then I can look at specific ingredients, like flour type, tomatoes and cheeses, and try to fit them into the overall look and feel. I also tried to use the bake temperature that Mack's uses and to try to figure out how best to use my oven and stone and pizza screen to simulate what Mack's does with its oven. When I looked at the video you originally referenced, it appeared that the temperature of the RotoFlex oven was around 500 degrees F. I couldn't exactly make out the digits in the oven display because of the resolution of the display but it looked like the first digit was a 5. Other members have also confirmed a temperature of around 500 degrees F, or something close to it. That value also comports with the value that a RotoFlex sales rep gave me in a conversation about their ovens.

With respect to the cheeses, the extra sharp NY white cheddar cheese did indeed have a very pronounced flavor but it was also one that I liked based on having used that cheese before with the Papa Gino's clone pizzas that I made. I could have used more mozzarella cheese to soften the flavor of the cheddar cheese but for this experiment I was trying to replicate the greasy/oily character of the cheese and to maximize the drip factor. As it was, there wasn't as much dripping as I saw in the other video you referenced at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VqTOgJKM0&amp;NR=1" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VqTOgJKM0&amp;NR=1</a>
(featuring the family with young children). It may be that a cheddar cheese with more fat is required or possibly more cheese may be needed. When I looked at the family Mack's video again, the cheese seemed to glisten with fat, so maybe more cheese is used at Mack's that what I used. That's the problem when you free-throw cheese. You can get many different results. It also occurred to me that maybe Mack's is using oil in its sauce. That might help with the lubrication of the sauce to get it to flow more easily and smoothly through the hose. If the oil in the sauce commingles on the baked pizza with the fat from the cheeses, it becomes hard to distinguish the oil from the cheese fat.

I will perhaps look for other white cheddar cheeses to play around with. Unfortunately, where I live it is hard to find wide selections of white cheddar cheese. They are mostly of the gourmet variety and in small sticks, and quite expensive for the amount you get. I could get more selection by mail order but I try as much as possible to use ingredients that are locally available. If someone correctly identifies the cheese used at Mack's and it is one that I could order somewhere, I might make an exception in that case, or else look for it during my travels north from time to time.

Overall, it was fun making the pizza. I also like to make 18" pizzas once in a while to keep my skills working with that size from getting too rusty. I am also sure that I will enjoy reheating the leftover slices.

Peter


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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2010, 10:48:59 AM »
Pete--Thanks

I will continue my espionage and try to spot more ingredient types nad brands!!

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2010, 11:47:38 AM »
Peter,

I also agree it is going to be harder to reverse-engineer Mack’s pizza, without having insider information or name brands.  If I get to one or both of Mack’s places in Wildwood, I am going to try to do dumpster diving if my daughter doesn’t get to perturbed with me.  She already thinks I am a pizza geek, but tolerates me. Maybe ERASMO’s espionage will also give us all some more valuable information.  Since he goes to Wildwood more than I can, he has more chances to watch what they are doing.

I am going to try another Mack’s clone at market on Tuesday if the market isn’t too busy.  This coming week is their 85 th anniversary and usually every year anniversary week is really busy, because there are many sales by stand holders and also stand holders give certificates for drawings for the customers, but there probably could be some time in the afternoon to give it a try again.  The mild cheddar I did use did have a lot of oiling and dripping.  I might buy some kind of sharper cheddar to add to see what happens.

With regard to oven temperature, right now I am keeping my oven temperature at market around 525 degrees F.  I could measure the temperature in my top oven which doesn’t get as hot.  Maybe that is another possibility.

Let us all know how you enjoyed the reheated slice.  I still have a slice left from Tuesday and am going to try that tonight, to see if I can now detect more cheddar flavor.

Thanks for going over all this information, again,

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2010, 02:56:51 PM »
Norma,

When I was out doing errands today, I stopped by two supermarkets near me where I shop and I checked out all of their white cheddar cheese offerings. One of the stores had eight brands, including one for shredded white cheddar. Most of the brands were 8 ounces and priced from $3.49 (on sale) to $9.99 (for the half pound). Most of the cheeses contained 9 grams of total fat per one-ounce serving, but there were two brands with 10 grams of fat per one-ounce serving and one with 11 grams of fat for a one-ounce serving. I found about half of the brands in the specialty cheese section of the store. The others were in the regular cheese section. This store caters to a high-end demographic, which accounts for the specialty cheese section and the broad selection.

The second store, which caters to a low-end demographic, had no white cheddar cheeses at all.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2010, 07:52:21 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for checking out the kinds of cheddar cheese the stores near you carry or didn’t carry.. Whew some of those white cheddar cheeses were expensive. It is interesting to hear all the different fats in the white cheddar cheeses. Were any of these sharp white cheddar?  I will also have to check what kinds of white cheddar the stores near me carry and what the differences are in prices.  I never bought any white cheddar from our local grocery store.  I only used the white mild cheddar in my blend at market. 

I cut part of one slice of the clone Mack’s pie, and also took a part of the crust off.  It didn’t make any difference in the taste of the cheddar being reheated, again.  The taste still stayed the same as Tuesday. Now to figure out what to maybe try on Tuesday.  The cheese still oiled off, after it was reheated.  I didn’t remember that when trying to reheat a real Mack’s pizza.  Maybe someone that has reheated a real Mack’s pizza, will be able to say whether the cheese oils off when reheated.

Norma
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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2010, 08:46:26 PM »
Norma,

I mentioned the different white cheddar cheeses mainly to demonstrate that there are some brands that have more fat than others. The cheeses with the higher fat values were the ones that were aged--about a couple years or so of aging. A few of the cheeses were sharp cheeses but there were some that were also mild. I am not sure how much fattier you can get with the white cheddar cheeses. As I suggested before, maybe Mack's is using oil in their sauce and that is showing up on the baked pizzas. 

The other thing that interested me is the amount of cheese that Mack's uses on their pizzas. From the original video you referenced it does not seem that Mack's is using a lot of cheese. Normally, an 18" pizza with mozzarella cheese contains a fair amount of that cheese. Maybe the intensity of the flavor of the white cheddar cheese means that they can get away with far less of the cheese. I think my next experiment will use a thinner crust and more cheese, mainly to see if I can get the "drip factor" up.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #115 on: May 01, 2010, 04:32:27 PM »
I went to a privately owned grocery store near me today, because they had steamed medium shrimp on sale for 5.99 a pound.  That is about the only place I will buy steamed shrimp where we live. While I was there I looked at the different kinds of X-Sharp White Cheddar.  I decided on this X-Sharp Cheddar because it also was on sale.  The weight of the X-Sharp White Cheddar was 0.46 lb.  I am going to hand grate this cheddar and mix with the mild white cheddar I have at market, to see if this blend might be closer to what Mack’s is using.  The price of this piece of X-Sharp Cheddar was 3.22. 

Norma
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 10:38:51 PM by norma427 »
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #116 on: May 01, 2010, 05:38:28 PM »
Thats good cheese you found there Norma,  make sure you try that stuff before cooking,  its great. That will certainly flavor up that pie. -marc

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #117 on: May 01, 2010, 05:42:20 PM »
Thats good cheese you found there Norma,  make sure you try that stuff before cooking,  its great. That will certainly flavor up that pie. -marc

widespreadpizza.

I never tried this brand of cheese before, but appreciate you telling me to try the cheese before I use it to make the Mack's pizza.  I will make sure to try it.  I am hoping this will flavor up the pie.

Thanks for your advise,  ;)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2010, 12:13:33 AM »
A few more pictures of Mack's pizza.

Norma
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 12:17:32 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2010, 12:25:24 AM »
Norma
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