Author Topic: Hey Peter  (Read 2922 times)

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Hey Peter
« on: August 23, 2009, 07:20:58 PM »
I have a question, but first an explanation as to why I ask. You may have noticed my posts have declined a lot in recent weeks, a joke here and there aside. The reason is I learned to make 3 kinds of dough quite well, Lehmann, GB's and Jerry Mac. All good, etc. Once you learn those 3 I think there's really nowhere to go, sourdough breeding aside, and that's way to confusing and risky to ones health, in my opine.

So, that said, here's the question. If you had to pick your "best dough recipe" what would it be? The best pizza you ever made in a conventional oven. I know it depends on your mood, taste, etc etc, but what was your personal favorite. I can easily pick my fav from the 3 above, taste and mood aside. So, for example, is there any post of yours where you end of the post with the words "best pizza I ever made!". That would be a good basis for what I seek, haha.

I'm just bored and looking for something new to try, I mean I have the time, I'm a total recluse who goes out twice a month for food shopping only. Please no 24 hr room temp ferments, something where the yeast is actually measurable would be preferable, haha again, ...but seriously. I'd ask Bill too, but I know he's a starter guru with an oven like no other, so his answer would be nice, but not helpful to me at all.

Hope you are well.
Jim
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 07:33:14 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2009, 08:18:47 PM »
Jim,  provided that you actually cook the dough,  I don't think there are many health related issues with wild yeasts.  There was a time when all there was,  was wild yeast.  Almost everything great,  has yeast in it.  In fact,  I have daydreamed about opening a resteraunt called  something like "great fermentations".  as always,  correct me if I am wrong-marc

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2009, 08:50:02 PM »
WSP,

Yes, but it also goes back to knowing when it tastes and smells right, having nothing to compare it to, being wrong, when to feed it, keeping it alive, having a special 85 degree warming oven, (see bills videos, I'm just not equipped) etc. The other factor I have asked about here is any taste difference when making a starter pizza at 550 degrees, is there any advantage, still a debatable topic. I have sort of ascertained that they are geared for higher temps, and making them at 550 is not much different than a 6-7 day low yeast cold ferment in ultimate taste.

Either way I'm afraid to get into starters, bacteria breeding, my left over sauce and butter tasting weird as they are in the same fridge, etc.



"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 09:29:53 PM »
Jim,

I have always viewed pizza as being an intensely personal matter based on personal taste preferences. Consequently, I have never viewed my opinions as being any better or more valuable than anyone else's. It all comes down to what you like. I happen to like most types and styles of pizzas and look forward to the next pizza I make and what it will give me in the way of a pleasurable eating experience and, hopefully, more knowledge about pizza. However, to answer your question, the best pizzas I have ever made in my standard home oven were made from doughs that used natural starters, preferments, or very long periods (15+ days) of cold fermentation. These protocols are the ones that I believe provide the best crust flavors, textures and aromas. They are also artisanal in nature and not the sort of thing you are going to find in most pizzerias.

The above situations aside, I would say that I am generally perfectly content with some variation of the Lehmann NY style dough. I have used the Lehmann dough formulation as the base of so many experiments that I have a high comfort level with that recipe. It also has a classical appeal to it, because it is simple and straightforward with strong connections to the ways that the old NYC pizza masters used to make their pizzas. Next on the list, I would perhaps put the Di Fara-like clones that are based on using a combination of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and a high-gluten flour such as the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. Examples can be seen in the series of posts starting at Reply 130 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg28423.html#msg28423.

Another pizza that pleasantly surprised me was the Papa Gino's clone pizzas. I described two different dough formulations for those clones at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71404.html#msg71404 and at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg71789.html#msg71789. I liked just about everything about those pizzas, but what I really liked was the fact that the leftover slices reheated beautifully. That is important to me since I rarely eat more than a couple of slices of a freshly baked pizza. The reheated slices were as good as the original.

I also don't want to leave out cracker style pizzas. It took me a while to become comfortable with that style, but with the help of members like Jackitup (Jon) and (John) fazzari, I reached the point where I felt I understood the dynamics of that style. The thread that shows my evolution with that style is http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html. Things turned around for me with that style starting at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138. I had great fun with the cracker-style and learned a lot from the collaborative effort that went into the abovereferenced thread.

I have also made memorable clones of the Donatos, Round Table, Papa John's, Monical's and Greek/pub style pizzas. I can give you links to those pizzas if that is of any interest to you.

Apparently while you were away recently, you missed that widespreadpizza (Marc) and I both made long, room-temperature fermentations using no commercial yeast whatsoever. So, that takes away the challenge of measuring out 1/256 teaspoon of IDY. Marc's pizza is described and shown starting at Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78756.html#msg78756. Mine is described and shown at Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78779.html#msg78779. What started our efforts was Marc's post at Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78700.html#msg78700.

As you can see, there is no reason to limit your repertoire to three doughs. Most of our new members leave the forum after they learn how to make one dough reasonably well. I think they miss a lot of good eating as a result.

Peter

Offline Mo

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2009, 09:36:05 PM »
In fact,  I have daydreamed about opening a resteraunt called  something like "great fermentations". 

I want to go to there. It's got to be at least as good as the place in Chicago that serves everything in a Mason jar. Everything.



Offline Essen1

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2009, 10:27:51 PM »
Jimbo,

good to see that you're still somewhat alive.  ??? Hope you're well also.

Now, in regards to your recluse thing and not posting much, I think I have an idea. How about sharing the things you've learned with our newer members here as this might kill the boredom you mentioned? Just an idea, Bro.

But if you're really bored out of your skull, you might want to take up a cheap hobby, such as building an LBE which instructions can be found here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.0.html  because this little but powerful oven might open up completely new possibilities for you and your pizze, meaning that you could engage in Neapolitan-style pies even without the absolute suicidal risk of experimenting with starters and wild yeasts.

With that said, stop being a stranger and start showing your face around here a bit more often, dammit.  ;D

Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 11:24:13 PM »
the best pizzas I have ever made in my standard home oven were made from doughs that used natural starters, preferments, or very long periods (15+ days) of cold fermentation.

Peter,
Is that 3 different things entirely, or are 1 and 2 hand in hand? The preferment idea sound intriguing, sort of making a starter without activating and breeding things if I'm guessing right. (If they are not hand in hand that is)Like a ''biga'' as they say in bread making? Gino's looks too much like Lehmann's or Glutenboy's to create such intrigue, but I'd love to see a good preferment idea. Don't get me wrong, I love all 3 of the doughs I've "mastered", but creating a more sourdough type thing is what I think I seek. I like Mac's for this reason, the 5 hour poolish does wonders, nothing in a 1 day compares. So taking that concept and really letting it brew, I dunno, again this may not be what you even mean. If it is though, please link a good one! I should start using different flours, I'm yet to find anything locally outside of KABF, literally. I've never used Caputo 00, any 00, or anything like this, might make some difference if I buy some online I guess.

Mike,
Well I think showing pics of the same 3 style pies gets old to everyone, lol. So making a joke about Calzone's when one jumps out at me is all I've felt I have lately to contribute. It's nothing personal bro!
On the topic of helping newbies out, yes I liked doing that the times I chimed in, but I am by no means an authority so I fear I'm stepping on the toes of those who are... or coming across as arrogant. Ya know like the new musician who last week couldn't play a G chord, he learns one song, now he thinks he's a bada$$. I hate that guy so I am leery of being him, lol.

I've been thinking of a cob oven, actually. When it's cooler I have real plans on starting that. Talk to me when we hit 60 degree highs again! And thanks, btw.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 11:40:05 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 10:39:57 AM »
Jim,

By preferments, I meant things like poolish, sponge, prefermented dough, biga, old dough (pate fermente), etc. They all derive from the breadmaking world and all are based on using commercial yeast, although it is possible to make natural versions of some of the preferments based on wild yeast. You can find brief descriptions of the common preferments in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html.

JerryMac's NY style dough recipe is based on using a poolish-like preferment (it is not exactly a poolish as technically defined in the bread world). Tom Lehmann occasionally recommends a dough formulation that is based on using what I would most closely describe as a "biga". You can see that formulation at Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239. Member (John) fazzari had posted on using poolish for pizza dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7327.msg63267.html#msg63267. I did a fair amount of experimentation with the old dough preferment method at the De Lorenzo clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html. A specific example can be seen at Reply 101 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44805.html#msg44805. If you do a forum search using my Username and terms like poolish, sponge, old dough, etc., you will find many posts describing the subject and some of my experiments. You might also read this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7617.msg65344.html#msg65344.

In general, preferments are a lot of fun but it is easy to go wrong with them. Usually it is because people fail to comprehend the complexity of the biochemistry of the dough and they either don't follow instructions or they change the formulation or procedures without comprehending the implication of the changes.

In defense of the Papa Gino's clones, I'd like to say that they did not remind me of a Lehmann pizza or a Glutenboy pizza. The dough formulations may look similar but the preparation, management and baking methods and procedures are different.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 08:35:41 PM »
Quote
Mike,
Well I think showing pics of the same 3 style pies gets old to everyone, lol. So making a joke about Calzone's when one jumps out at me is all I've felt I have lately to contribute. It's nothing personal bro!
On the topic of helping newbies out, yes I liked doing that the times I chimed in, but I am by no means an authority so I fear I'm stepping on the toes of those who are... or coming across as arrogant. Ya know like the new musician who last week couldn't play a G chord, he learns one song, now he thinks he's a bada$$. I hate that guy so I am leery of being him, lol.

I've been thinking of a cob oven, actually. When it's cooler I have real plans on starting that. Talk to me when we hit 60 degree highs again! And thanks, btw.


Jimbo,

You're not the arrogant type and I'm sure everybody on here knows that. But it's always nice to have you around on here so that's why I said to maybe try some new styles or even an oven project.

Anyway, I know what you mean by the G chord thing. When I started playing guitar at age 8 my big idol was Angus Young and as soon as I had down two chords, the E and the D, I thought I'm fit for the big stage.  ;D But my Dad thought otherwise and I kept practicing, even though most AC/DC tunes really only consist of three, maybe four chords. Oh well...

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2009, 04:38:53 PM »

Jimbo,

You're the arrogant type and I'm sure everybody on here knows that by now. But it's always nice to have you around so we can clearly see how arrogant you are! That's why I said to maybe try some new styles, or even an oven project, as when you don't succeed we can get a laugh at how abysmally you act!   

Anyway, I know what you mean by the G chord thing. When I started playing guitar at age 8 my big idol was Angus Young and as soon as I had down two chords, the E and the D, I thought I'm fit for the big stage.  ;D But my Dad thought otherwise so he took me to an AC/DC show and tied me to the PA speaker and said "That'll teach ya to wanna be a rocker!" I kept practicing anyway, even though I couldn't hear very well.  Oh well...

Man, tough dad!


hmmm, maybe I read something wrong.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1


Offline Essen1

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2009, 08:58:05 PM »
Dude,

I was on the floor when I read your response!!   :-D
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 10:56:41 AM »
 ;D Glad ya liked it  8)

Btw when I said I was bored I meant with the same 3 doughs, not with things in general, just to clarify. So back to that I have tried to find something new to try, searched "14 day ferment" and got 200 results for "14" pizzas made in a day", lol. The preferment's I am finding here in starter section are typically 4-5 hrs, so nothing new off Mac's, which I'm making today btw. I really don't even make his right though, it's great, but I have to add extra flour for hand kneading so it's not exactly accurate. So maybe I should just be happy I can make 3 doughs! T'was a time a could not make 1 so...

I think the next new thing to maybe do is buy or make an oven to get the temps up. That would make the biggest difference all in all. As I hand knead exclusively, as to me that's "making dough", I am somewhat limited to lower hydrations. Lower hydration + High temps equals, well... my user name.

Someday!....
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 11:05:48 AM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 08:24:12 PM »
;D Glad ya liked it  8)

Btw when I said I was bored I meant with the same 3 doughs, not with things in general, just to clarify. So back to that I have tried to find something new to try, searched "14 day ferment" and got 200 results for "14" pizzas made in a day", lol. The preferment's I am finding here in starter section are typically 4-5 hrs, so nothing new off Mac's, which I'm making today btw. I really don't even make his right though, it's great, but I have to add extra flour for hand kneading so it's not exactly accurate. So maybe I should just be happy I can make 3 doughs! T'was a time a could not make 1 so...

I think the next new thing to maybe do is buy or make an oven to get the temps up. That would make the biggest difference all in all. As I hand knead exclusively, as to me that's "making dough", I am somewhat limited to lower hydrations. Lower hydration + High temps equals, well... my user name.

Someday!....

Jimbo,

I feel like I hijacked your thread here. Wasn't my intention at all.

However, my old man did actually take me to my first AC/DC concert when I was 10 or 11. But fortunately he didn't tie me to the PA or otherwise I'd be a second L.v. Beethoven today.

The oven idea is a good one. Think about it, bro.
Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 10:43:36 PM »
Peter, I'm going to try this 15 day. I remembered you linked me to it and I think it should be interesting. I'm doing a couple 13" pies, but as I hand knead I'll bet it's close. (more residue) I'll keep you posted!
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092

Jimbo,
I feel like I hijacked your thread here. Wasn't my intention at all.

Yeah right. The bad news for you is I got this picture as you drove my truck away into the night, don't think this is over man. Many unclothed people were counting on that thread.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 11:11:25 PM by NY pizzastriver »
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Essen1

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 01:46:38 AM »
Quote
Yeah right. The bad news for you is I got this picture as you drove my truck away into the night, don't think this is over man. Many unclothed people were counting on that thread.

Joke's on you!

I don't even know how to drive a truck. Are you sure it's not someone else that's taking off with your stuff? You didn't piss off your wife by any chance, did you?

Juuust kidding...  ;D

Good to see you're back!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 02:28:03 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2009, 12:01:25 PM »
Lol, yes I'm back today reading over the 15 day recipe, and hmmm, which takes me to ....

Peter, upon reading this I see 2 things that are a concern.

1. Metal container.

2. Most importantly, you say "I could not conclude that the flavor of the crust was better at 15 days than one with far fewer days, or at least my palate couldn’t detect it."

So what long term dough do you refer to  above that was one of your fav's? Seemingly this one didn't blow you away.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2009, 01:30:07 PM »
Jim,

One of the key requirements of a "geriatric" dough is a low finished dough temperature and keeping the dough as cold as possible thereafter, specifically, by getting the dough into the refrigerator right after making it. I found using a metal dough storage container to work well for the latter purpose because it conducts heat away from the dough more quickly than a storage container made from a less conductive material. If you don't have a metal container (I used an old cookie tin), you might try putting your storage container in the refrigerator for a while to get it cold, and then add the finished dough to it after it has been made. Where you might have a problem if you are hand kneading the dough is getting a low finished dough temperature. Where I am in Texas this time of year, I will have a hard time getting a low finished dough temperature because the dough approaches room temperature (it is around 82 degrees F in my kitchen) fairly quickly, even when I use cold water. The knead times are just too long compared with a machine. If it is cool where you are, you should have a better chance of getting a low finished dough temperature than what I can get here in Texas this time of year. I have read reports about using flour that has been refrigerated or frozen before using, but I did not find that that helped. I found that the flour warmed up much faster than I wouild have thought.

With respect to the relationship of crust flavors to fermentation times, I found that I got good crust flavors over a range of about 7 days to 15 days of cold fermentation. I did not conduct enough experiments to zero in on some optimum fermentation time. However, I found that as the fermentation times got longer, in some cases the sugar levels in the finished crust seemed to diminish and not be as readily detectable on the palate. That natural sweetness (there was no sugar added to the dough) was something I came to like. I liked the pizza that you referenced at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092, much as I liked a later version as discussed at Reply 110 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42160.html#msg42160. Another geriatric dough that worked out very well for me is the one described at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. That one went out to a bit over 12 days. The dough was a trickier one to make because I significantly increased the amount of yeast, so there was more and faster fermentation. Getting a low finished dough temperature was an important requirement. When I make doughs such as these, I think "cold, cold, cold" at every step of the way.

Peter

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Hey Peter
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 04:32:09 PM »

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092,

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081.

Thanks Peter.

Interesting how one has so much yeast over the other, .25% to .6%, I'm surprised the .6% lived so long. Ok, the .25% it is...
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1