Author Topic: Anthony Mangieri Video  (Read 30701 times)

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Offline Mo

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2009, 06:41:20 PM »
Mo,

I didn't measure the size of my pizzas at UPN but most reports I have read say that the pizzas were 12". For a 10 ounce dough ball, that translates to a thickness factor of 0.0884. The VPN specifies a dough ball weight of between 180-250 grams (http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html), and the U.S. VPN charter specifies a maximum pizza diameter of 35 cm., or 13.8" (http://www.anticapizzeria.net/vpn/charter.html). Marco (pizzanapoletana) said that a 250 gram dough ball would make a 30 cm. diameter pizza, or around 12" (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8959/topicseen.html#msg8959). As you can see, there are many possible variations in terms of dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes, but if we use Marco's 250 gram dough ball (9.86 ounces) for a 30 cm. (11.81") pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is 0.089993. That's about the same as what Anthony used.

At the time that UPN closed, Anthony was charging around $21 for a pizza, which did not go over well with many of his customers, even the devoted ones. Maybe he felt that he had to give customers something for their money. I don't think he could have gone thinner or smaller.

Peter



Thanks Pete, but I still don't see how 250g equals 9.86 oz. I keep getting close to 280g to get to 9.8 oz... 250g seems to equal closer to 8.82.

Still, I don't doubt what you're saying about a wider pie, etc. And the <$20 price tag seems steep too, even for NY (guessing about that one). Guess that explains a little about why he only did (or needed to do) a 100 pies a night.

That ten-ounce weight just stuck out to me as unusually high for what is supposed to be a relatively thin pie, 12-inch or not...

 


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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2009, 06:51:32 PM »
Mo,

You are correct. Thanks for catching my math error. I went back and corrected my post at Reply 79.

It has been noted on the forum before, but Anthony once said that he thought his pizzas were worth $50: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2007/10/michael-bauers-pizza-fridays.html.

Peter

Offline David

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2009, 12:33:08 PM »
From my experience there are various styles of pizza served in Naples ranging fro 10" to over the standard 12" plate size.The majority served on plates,consistently seem to go for just under 12" ( just within the plate edge rim ).DaMichelle ( which I believe UPN has used as a model )does not weigh each dough ball and goes for a larger style pizza that generally is a bit bigger than the plate.Stretching the dough will have significant impact on  your final results,regardless of just the amount of dough you use.I think this is an area he struggled with over the years.A quick look on Flickr and you'll see how small some of the pizzas actually are,certainly inconsistent and embarrassingly small for the reputed dough weight and hefty price tag.
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2009, 12:01:33 AM »
Mike,

Actually, to me the sequence of steps seems quite correct. Anthony measures out a specified quantity of flour from the 55-lb. bag of Caputo flour (for whatever reason not quite known), puts the rest of the flour into the mixer (presumably with the salt), and adds the dough mass from the rectangular tub to the bowl, followed by the water (no doubt there are several water addition steps since the amount shown would not be enough for 47-48 pounds of flour). After the dough has been kneaded, it is divided and scaled (possibly after a period of room temperature fermentation in shallow trays such as the one shown in the video). Further, if you compare the two videos showing Anthony at work, you will see that the rectangular tub appears to be shown in both videos. In the Pure and Simple video, which shows Anthony opening up his shop and starting to make his dough, you will see him hand mixing some kind of dough in that tub. I think you can make out a case that what is in that tub is a prefermented "old dough" leavened by his natural, regularly-refreshed starter (Marco believed that starter to be based on the Ischia but Anthony told me he was using a local wild yeast). You will also see from the Naturally Rising video that the glob of dough in the tub is about double that shown in the Pure and Simple video. That could represent the rise of the naturally leavened prefermented dough after about 24 hours--from the morning of one day to the morning of the next day (or some other corresponding points, such as when Anthony opened up his shop to make the dough).

I also agree with you (and with Bill) that what you do matters--arguably even more than what Anthony was doing at UPN. However, that doesn't detract from the fact that there are people out there, including many members of our forum, who want to know--in as much detail as possible--how Anthony was actually making his dough during his tenure at UPN. It may be out of curiosity in light of Anthony's widespread fame and notoriety, or because they loved him or his pizzas, but it may also be because they want to try to replicate his pizza dough for their own use, especially if they have the right type of oven. I personally would be very interested in seeing some of the members, especially those who ate some of Anthony's pizzas, try to do that and report back on their results and how they compared with Anthony's pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

What I meant was that the video could/may have been shot over a couple of days or even a few days, so the way he did things might have been different.

What you don't see in the video is the way he makes the preferment. All you see is "the glob of dough" being poured out of the tub. You also don't see at what point he adds the salt. That might be a different step altogether.

In regards to the "Pure & Simple video, I was unable to watch it because it didn't start on my computer. All I got was black box but no video, so I cannot really comment on that one.

My theory is that Anthony removes a particular amount of flour from the bag to make room for the preferment in order to get back to the 55lbs. So if he removes 7-8 lbs of flour, he could have made room for 7-8 pounds of preferment, hence the the inaccurate amount of water added to the mixing bowl.

And I agree with you, it would be interesting to see what members come up with who do have a WFO and can decipher AM's formula.


David,

are you talking about these:

Mike

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2009, 09:26:01 AM »
Mike,

It took a while for the Pure and Simple video to set up on my computer, from two different websites, so you may want to try again and wait for a couple of minutes to see if the video opens up for you. If it does, you will see a step--the preparation of a dough mass in a tub that looks to be the same one as shown in the Naturally Risen video--that is not shown in the Naturally Risen video. If Anthony was using the prefermented dough ("new" old dough) method, one of the things we don't know is the form of the starter material used in the tub and the amount used. For his straight dough method, Marco advocated using a fairly stiff preferment for pizza dough (mainly for the acid profile he was after) but it could be just about anything, from a poolish consistency to a sponge consistency to a biga consistency, each with its own effect on the final crust flavor, aroma and texture. Marco used very small amounts of the starter, solely for leavening purposes, whereas the old dough method typically usually uses considerably more. As noted earlier, Anthony told me that he used only a small amount of his starter. However, it would have to be sufficient in terms of leavening power and amount to raise a dough over the ensuing 24 hour room-temperature fermentation period. As shown in the Naturally Risen video, the dough in the tub just about fills the tub.

With respect to the salt, although not shown in the videos, in his house literature Anthony said that the salt was mixed in with the flour. However, it is possible to split the salt between the old dough and the final mix.

I think it is important to keep in mind that, whether Anthony was using the prefermented dough ("new" old dough) method or a portion of a prior day's actual dough production, and notwithstanding that Anthony held out his pizzas as being Neapolitan, either method is an indirect method and is not what is typically used commercially in Naples to the best of my knowledge. From everything that I have read, what would be typical is the use of commercial yeast (usually fresh yeast) or a natural starter such as used by Marco (and a very small number of pizzerias in Naples) to leaven the dough in a straight dough mix. Both of these methods are sanctioned by the VPN doctrinaire documents and I believe they are the only ones. However, that does not mean that Anthony did not produce a good product. It was just his choice to use a different method--the old dough method. In my analysis, I gravitated toward the "new" old dough method because, as I noted before, according to Prof. Calvel in his book The Taste of Bread, at page 44, there is a practical limit as to how many generations of old dough can be taken from actual prior dough batches without producing undesirable flavors.

Peter

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2009, 04:20:44 PM »
Based on the discussion in this thread, I've tried incorporating a 24 hour preferment/levain into my dough formula.  I didn't go as far as using old dough , but the recipe could quite easily be adjusted for that.
Anyway, the resulting crust was maybe one of the most flavourful I've had so far

Please forgive the poor picture quality. I have an overhead yellow light source in the kitchen which I've tried to compensate for in my photo editor but it leaves things looking slightly greener than RL.
Also, the char on the underside of the crust was not so great. Sorry I didn't get a decent photo of it before I started eating! Still fine-tuning my timing and set-up in the oven to balance overhead radiant heat with stone heat.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 04:24:20 PM by Infoodel »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2009, 04:52:39 PM »
Hi Infoodel,

the pizza looks great ! what are your % ??

i want to try this, but dont know where to start..???

thanks !
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2009, 06:58:24 PM »
Peter,

I other words, Anthony is basically making some sort of a hybrid of the original Neapolitan pies. At least that's what it sounds like.

 
Mike

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2009, 08:50:22 PM »
Andre,
I'm going to try and make a proper blog post of this recipe when I've got everything finalised (there are still adjustments that need to be made).
For now the details I can remember are:-
Flour was a 75% 00 organic (11% protein) and 25% canadian (15% protein) blend - which makes a 12% overall protein level by my calculation.
Hydration was 65% throughout (both the 24 hour levain and the final dough)
Salt was 2.5%
The levain was roughly 100% of final flour <edit: 100% baker's percentage ie wrt final flour>

Eggs, (overcooked :-/ ) Buffalo mozz, Pancetta, Parmesan, Olive oil, Basil:
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 09:07:25 PM by Infoodel »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2009, 09:23:31 PM »
Peter,

I tried again to watch the Pure & Simple video on the Serious Eats site and it didn't work so I checked the video out here:

http://videos.nymag.com/video/Pure-and-Simple#c=K0R9527HNWCYH3M4&t=Pure%20and%20Simple

I'm not done watching it, though. However, at Min 1:42 Anthony uses the same technique as Alton Brown does at Min 3:23 of this video, except Brown doesn't use any bench flour.

Mike

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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2009, 10:29:10 PM »
Thanks Infoodel... so how long did the pre-fermented ferment before the final dough ? and how  long did the final dough fermented before you balled and how long did you proof ? sorry for all the questions... but iam very curious about the steps.... thanks again !!
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Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2009, 11:06:29 PM »
Thanks Infoodel... so how long did the pre-fermented ferment before the final dough ? and how  long did the final dough fermented before you balled and how long did you proof ? sorry for all the questions... but iam very curious about the steps.... thanks again !!
No problem. Sorry if I was overly vague. So.....
The 65% hydration levain was a 24 hour ferment using a 100% hydration starter as it's erm....starter! Thanks to the cool weather recently this was relatively easy. It was kept at around 63F for the most part but up to 73ish about 2 hours before mixing.
The final dough was bulk fermented for 2 1/2 hours at 75F
The dough was then balled and retarded in the refrigerator due to need for sleep (8 hours)
They were out of the 'fridge for about 2 hours @ 75F before baking.
Hope that answers your questions.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2009, 06:39:46 AM »
thanks Toby ! next bake ill give this a try....
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline heliman

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2009, 08:52:44 PM »
Is wasn't clear to me from the video if the dough is allowed to rest before baking. The workflow seems to be knead, ball then stack ready for use. I'm sure that I am missing something here...

Rossco

Offline PEEL

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2009, 09:50:17 AM »
yawn.  for the amount of time you guys devote to deconstructing mangieri's process, you've most likely gotten it wrong, for a variety of reasons.  for starters, his process is in reality much simpler than one would realize, and, secondly, you do not know what day this video was filmed on.  being closed for three days meant that he still had to actively 'build' the starter before his first production day of the week, as he has noted in several interviews.  we know 'naturally risen' was likely filmed on his first production day of the week, as it would be the least busy, which begs the question:  how do we know his dough-making process is the same on a thursday as it is on a sunday?  the answer is, we don't, and, if we were to guess, they're probably not the same.

he likely forms a hard starter at the very end of his week, to slow fermentation during closing hours, and then uses it to build a wet 'poolish' (similar to thom leonard's method at wheatfields bakery) one to two days before reopening, which would explain the consistency and super-lactic quality of his pizzas.  this poolish probably accounts for no more than 50% of the total flour weight, a standard bakery process, especially in italy.

the editing in 'naturally risen' does not show a few things about his mixing process, but we can deduce that he uses an autolysis period before adding any ferment or salt.  if i were to guess, he probably holds back the addition of salt until approximately six minutes of mixing the levain and autolysed dough in first speed, and then adds the salt and any additional water, which he holds back to promote gluten development, another standard bakery process when using weaker flours.

the dough is divided into smaller tubs for bulk fermentation, similar to a method pioneered by parisian bakers for baguette dough, before dividing and shaping.

some side notes:  no baker in the world would remove flour from a bag for bench flour; she would do so because she is used to making a standard batch size that produces x number of patons or dough balls.  removing dough from a 25-kg bag is standard practice when trying to achieve a particular batch size, especially with the addition of a 'poolish.'  the bin he places the flour in is, in reality, already filled with flour, and is the same flour bin every bakery or good pizzeria in the u.s. uses for 'spare' flour (i.e., for topping off weigh-ups, for dusting couche or bannetons, or for the bench).  lastly, his mixer can probably handle a 45-kg batch of dough (by flour weight).

one edit:  the less than 15% starter quoted earlier by peter would also be consistent with the levain-'poolish' method used in some modern italian bakeries, where the poolish is made using 10-20% starter relative to overall flour weight (in this sort of fermentation schema, 25% of the total flour goes into the 'poolish,' usually with 50% of the overall water, but i suspect that his 'poolish' uses less water, and is somewhere in the 78-82% hydration range, rather than 100%).

cheers.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 10:00:12 AM by PEEL »

Offline Mo

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2009, 01:31:26 PM »
yawn.  for the amount of time you guys devote to deconstructing mangieri's process, you've most likely gotten it wrong, for a variety of reasons.  for starters, his process is in reality much simpler than one would realize, and, secondly, you do not know what day this video was filmed on.  being closed for three days meant that he still had to actively 'build' the starter before his first production day of the week, as he has noted in several interviews.  we know 'naturally risen' was likely filmed on his first production day of the week, as it would be the least busy, which begs the question:  how do we know his dough-making process is the same on a thursday as it is on a sunday?  the answer is, we don't, and, if we were to guess, they're probably not the same.

he likely forms a hard starter at the very end of his week, to slow fermentation during closing hours, and then uses it to build a wet 'poolish' (similar to thom leonard's method at wheatfields bakery) one to two days before reopening, which would explain the consistency and super-lactic quality of his pizzas.  this poolish probably accounts for no more than 50% of the total flour weight, a standard bakery process, especially in italy.

the editing in 'naturally risen' does not show a few things about his mixing process, but we can deduce that he uses an autolysis period before adding any ferment or salt.  if i were to guess, he probably holds back the addition of salt until approximately six minutes of mixing the levain and autolysed dough in first speed, and then adds the salt and any additional water, which he holds back to promote gluten development, another standard bakery process when using weaker flours.

the dough is divided into smaller tubs for bulk fermentation, similar to a method pioneered by parisian bakers for baguette dough, before dividing and shaping.

some side notes:  no baker in the world would remove flour from a bag for bench flour; she would do so because she is used to making a standard batch size that produces x number of patons or dough balls.  removing dough from a 25-kg bag is standard practice when trying to achieve a particular batch size, especially with the addition of a 'poolish.'  the bin he places the flour in is, in reality, already filled with flour, and is the same flour bin every bakery or good pizzeria in the u.s. uses for 'spare' flour (i.e., for topping off weigh-ups, for dusting couche or bannetons, or for the bench).  lastly, his mixer can probably handle a 45-kg batch of dough (by flour weight).

one edit:  the less than 15% starter quoted earlier by peter would also be consistent with the levain-'poolish' method used in some modern italian bakeries, where the poolish is made using 10-20% starter relative to overall flour weight (in this sort of fermentation schema, 25% of the total flour goes into the 'poolish,' usually with 50% of the overall water, but i suspect that his 'poolish' uses less water, and is somewhere in the 78-82% hydration range, rather than 100%).

cheers.

I'm curious to know two things: first, how exactly did you deduce the autolyse step from the (absence of) video (or is it rather an inference...)? And second, how did you mange to stay awake typing your reply?

I may have other questions for you but that's it so far. On the surface, I don't think your analysis offers
more than yet another opinion, but as always, I may be wrong...

Infoodel

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2009, 01:48:59 PM »
yawn.  for the amount of time you guys devote to deconstructing mangieri's process, you've most likely gotten it wrong, for a variety of reasons.  for starters, his process is in reality much simpler than one would realize, and, secondly, you do not know what day this video was filmed on.  being closed for three days meant that he still had to actively 'build' the starter before his first production day of the week, as he has noted in several interviews.  we know 'naturally risen' was likely filmed on his first production day of the week, as it would be the least busy, which begs the question:  how do we know his dough-making process is the same on a thursday as it is on a sunday?  the answer is, we don't, and, if we were to guess, they're probably not the same.

he likely forms a hard starter at the very end of his week, to slow fermentation during closing hours, and then uses it to build a wet 'poolish' (similar to thom leonard's method at wheatfields bakery) one to two days before reopening, which would explain the consistency and super-lactic quality of his pizzas.  this poolish probably accounts for no more than 50% of the total flour weight, a standard bakery process, especially in italy.

the editing in 'naturally risen' does not show a few things about his mixing process, but we can deduce that he uses an autolysis period before adding any ferment or salt.  if i were to guess, he probably holds back the addition of salt until approximately six minutes of mixing the levain and autolysed dough in first speed, and then adds the salt and any additional water, which he holds back to promote gluten development, another standard bakery process when using weaker flours.

the dough is divided into smaller tubs for bulk fermentation, similar to a method pioneered by parisian bakers for baguette dough, before dividing and shaping.

some side notes:  no baker in the world would remove flour from a bag for bench flour; she would do so because she is used to making a standard batch size that produces x number of patons or dough balls.  removing dough from a 25-kg bag is standard practice when trying to achieve a particular batch size, especially with the addition of a 'poolish.'  the bin he places the flour in is, in reality, already filled with flour, and is the same flour bin every bakery or good pizzeria in the u.s. uses for 'spare' flour (i.e., for topping off weigh-ups, for dusting couche or bannetons, or for the bench).  lastly, his mixer can probably handle a 45-kg batch of dough (by flour weight).

one edit:  the less than 15% starter quoted earlier by peter would also be consistent with the levain-'poolish' method used in some modern italian bakeries, where the poolish is made using 10-20% starter relative to overall flour weight (in this sort of fermentation schema, 25% of the total flour goes into the 'poolish,' usually with 50% of the overall water, but i suspect that his 'poolish' uses less water, and is somewhere in the 78-82% hydration range, rather than 100%).

cheers.
I think you maybe taking this thread the wrong way. It's not really about 'reproducing Anthony Mangieri's pizza' but rather learning what one can from the information available. I'm sorry that you found that uninteresting or yawn-worthy.

Regarding the points you raise, there's nothing to suggest either a 'hard starter' (which is unlikely given what Mr. Mangieri has mentioned in previous interviews, etc.) or autolyse period or divison of dough for bulk fermentation are employed - which is not to say those aren't useful techniques in their own right. It's certainly interesting to speculate and discuss the merits of those processes and techniques, but really goes beyond the scope of the thread (which in case it bore repeating was focused on the video).

Toby

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2009, 02:07:26 PM »
Of course, we don't have all the answers and maybe we never will. But for a thread to get over 5000 page views in less than three months is actually quite extraordinary on this forum. So, it appears that there is a great deal of interest in what Anthony was doing, whether it is for entertainment, curiosity, to learn, or to reproduce Anthony's methods.

I'd like at some point to re-read this thread in light of PEEL's remarks. I hope I don't have to fight off soporific tendencies.

Peter

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2009, 02:29:08 PM »
Picking up on some of PEEL's points:


Quote
he likely forms a hard starter at the very end of his week, to slow fermentation during closing hours, and then uses it to build a wet 'poolish' (similar to thom leonard's method at wheatfields bakery) one to two days before reopening, which would explain the consistency and super-lactic quality of his pizzas.  this poolish probably accounts for no more than 50% of the total flour weight, a standard bakery process, especially in italy.

Actually that's not an entirely accurate reflection of 'standard bakery process' in italy.  Italian baking is perhaps best known for employing 'biga'. Often the biga is commercially-yeasted and not a wild-yeast/sourdough preferment. Biga can be used in really quite large proportions in the final dough and gives strength to the final dough (especially important for wet doughs like ciabatta etc.).

Quote
the editing in 'naturally risen' does not show a few things about his mixing process, but we can deduce that he uses an autolysis period before adding any ferment or salt.  if i were to guess, he probably holds back the addition of salt until approximately six minutes of mixing the levain and autolysed dough in first speed, and then adds the salt and any additional water, which he holds back to promote gluten development, another standard bakery process when using weaker flours.

While there is no way one can deduce this from the video, it's not impossible that some form of autolyse is used. It would  however seem to contradict the process portrayed in a previous set of photographs showing how Anthony Mangieri used to mix his dough by hand. Of course the technique may have changed over the years.   While Autolyse may be a 'standard bakery process' it's certainly not par for the course when it comes to pizza-making.
It was interesting to note the handling of the dough after bulk fermentation in the video. Notice the way the dough is folded several times to promote strength. From my own experience,I've found this prevents the dough balls from flattening out too much during the final proof.

Quote
the dough is divided into smaller tubs for bulk fermentation, similar to a method pioneered by parisian bakers for baguette dough, before dividing and shaping.
FWIW, the tray(s) used for bulk fermentation were clearly shown in the video.

Cheers,

Toby

Offline jeff v

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Re: Anthony Mangieri Video
« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2009, 02:34:05 PM »
I hope I don't have to fight off soporific tendencies.


Zing!!  :-D

ETA: I know that didn't add much to the conversation, but I found it funny.

FWIW I have no interest in reproducing Anthony's pizza, but have really enjoyed following this thread. Curiosity mostly I suppose but also because I admire his dedication to his craft enjoying following along as others try to decipher what he is/was doing from small bits of info.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 02:40:14 PM by jeff v »
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.


 

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