Author Topic: my pizza made from a poolish  (Read 4312 times)

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Offline thezaman

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my pizza made from a poolish
« on: October 06, 2009, 10:12:17 PM »
after asking a question on the forno bravo forum i got a response from a sour dough baker named jay.  his recommended method for pizza dough seemed a little like the anthony magieri method. jay uses a starter for his breads, the recipe  that he gave me was yeast based . this was in answer of my request for a tender puffy crust. i started with 300 grams of warm water 300 grams of caputo , two grams of wet yeast .and a few ounces of old dough . this was mixed with a spoon covered and set out to rise over night. the next day 400 grams of caputo 14 grams salt and 134 grams of water were mixed for a couple of minutes and the poolish was added. the dough was mixed for eight minutes . after a one hour rise it was balled an refrigerated . i took it out 6 hours later and let it room rise for two hours as the oven heated up.
  this was my best dough yet .i have not seen much difference in any of the changes i have tried , until this one . the dough was tender puffy and had a different taste to it. enclosed are pics.


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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 10:30:05 PM »
Larry,

pizzanapoletana (Marco) once told me that poolish is not used in Naples to make pizzas. See, for example, Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.msg24291.html#msg24291. Of course, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use poolish if it gives you the results you are looking for. In your case, your pizza looks quite good. However, while you said that the taste of the finished crust was different, you didn't say whether you liked it or not. Can you describe the flavor and your reaction to it?

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 11:38:03 PM »
  i liked the flavor of the dough , more nutty tasting and had more of a bread chew to it . as you can see from the slice  pic it was airy . i didn't know that a poolish wasn't used in naples . thanks for the past thread to read over, doesn't da michele use some old dough to flavor the new?

Offline dohboy

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 11:51:06 PM »
Nice post, Larry, will definitely give it a shot.  Hope all is well.  -Ankur

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 12:09:27 AM »
thanks for the past thread to read over, doesn't da michele use some old dough to flavor the new?

Larry,

My recollection is that at least at some point (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3732.msg31130.html#msg31130) Da Michele used a natural starter but not old dough. I don't know what Da Michele is now using.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 02:37:57 AM »
Sounds like a dough with a small usability window. Wow, the final dough is more than 50% poolish and old dough. Must be tasty  ;D

Offline thezaman

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 07:18:55 AM »
you are right it has a small window . overnight poolish and the mixed dough would have to be used the next day.i was able to refrigerate the balls and they didn't proof much in the cooler, the dough was still nice in the evening. if i was able i could of used it at room temp in 4 hours .  i want to time a batch to see how that comes out.

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 09:52:05 AM »
Larry,

You used about 0.67% fresh yeast in your poolish. Since you let the poolish preferment overnight, did it collapse over that time, that is, was it past its break point?

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 10:17:46 AM »
 no, i made it at 9 pm and mixed a t about 10 am. the weather in ohio is cold so it seemed to be at a peak not yet falling. again this is non scientific . i am sure this would have to be adjusted during warm weather. i would also try this 100 % poolish with a larger batch of dough if mt little ka mixer could handle it.

Offline s00da

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 11:56:28 AM »
You might want to try using a total pre-ferment percentage of 25%.  As for the poolish, I think, and Pete can correct me on that...you look for when it just collapses as to get the best benefits in terms of flavor.

Saad


Offline thezaman

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 12:44:50 PM »
saad, can you explain your percentages based on 700 grams of flour and  62% hydration ? i have been working all summer on different methods and so far this has worked the best for me. would testing the ph at certain times yield consistant results? 7 being neutral i think .

Offline s00da

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 01:09:38 PM »
Larry, I'll be glad to but I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you talking about any of my older posts? If yes, can you link it?

Offline thezaman

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 02:14:38 PM »
sadd, i was hopping you could take my recipe and tweak it based on the preferment and poolish i am using.
 peter in the book a16 they mention the use of old dough at da michele to add flavor and complexity to their fresh dough.

Offline s00da

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 02:33:45 PM »
I'm really no expert on the poolish field but I understand that the recommended % of poolish in a dough is 25%.

For understanding poolish and how to make it, this is a good post by Pete http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7925.msg68004.html#msg68004

As for an example recipe using poolish, this is also a good one by Pete http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg76431.html#msg76431

For example, if your dough has 700g of flour at 62% hydration. That's 700g (flour) + 434g (water) gives a total dough weight of 1134g. This is rough as yeast and salt aren't considered. This means, you need 25% poolish which is 283.5g. Once your poolish is done, you then mix it with the remaining 75% (850.5g) just like you did for your dough in the beginning of this thread.

Hope that was helpful.

Saad

Offline scpizza

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 08:24:01 AM »
My recollection is that at least at some point (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3732.msg31130.html#msg31130) Da Michele used a natural starter but not old dough. I don't know what Da Michele is now using.
I was told by someone who observed their doughmaking some time back that Da Michele uses fresh yeast.

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2009, 10:28:08 AM »
Although it is possible to use commercial yeast, it is not the easiest thing to do if the fermentation is to occur at room temperature over a 20+ hour period, as Marco said was the case (and also with Antica Costa), at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12548.html#msg12548. Also, at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1370.msg12541/topicseen.html#msg12541, Marco seemed to imply that Da Michele was using a natural starter. Even if such is the case, I can imagine that there may be times where commercial yeast is used for some reason, as when they run out of dough or something befalls their dough to render it unusable.

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 10:50:55 AM »
go to their web site yeast is listed as an ingredient .

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 11:14:14 AM »
go to their web site yeast is listed as an ingredient .

Larry,

The reference to yeast in the list of ingredients (Ingredients: “Type 00” wheat flour, San Marzano non-concentrate tomato sauce, cow-milk mozzarella from Agerola, seed oil, water, yeast, marine salt, basil, oregano and garlic) does not rule out the use of natural yeast, as in a Crisceto.

Also, if you look under the La Storia tab, you will see this sentence: The secret of Da Michele’s enduring success is in the use of natural ingredients, and of an old, traditional, time-tested method of leavening pizza dough. To me, that doesn't sound like they are trying to attach such high praise and honor to fresh yeast or any other form of commercial yeast.

Peter

Offline BurntEdges

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2009, 11:51:16 AM »
I realize that this recipe uses both a poolish & old dough containing commercial yeast.  (Or at least I'm assuming that the old dough would be from this recipe)

In this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9339.msg81033.html#msg81033, there's a discussion indicating that commercial yeast will not work for an old dough method.  Why not?  I thought that the resulting yeast activity we observe in our dough was the yeast propagating.  Will natural yeast propagate on its own, but commercial yeast will not?  Why is it working here?  Probably, because with each batch we're making a new poolish with another new dose of commercial yeast?  I'm therefore unclear, function wise, on the difference between natural yeast and commercial yeast.

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Re: my pizza made from a poolish
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 12:34:49 PM »
BurntEdges,

This is a highly technical subject. However, you might find it useful to read the following posts and threads:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679/topicseen.html#msg8679 (Reply 10); and

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5741.msg48769.html#msg48769.

Essentially, I think it comes down to the fact that, in general, you can't keep a commercially-leavened preferment going indefinitely, whereas, with proper management, you can do it with a naturally-leavened preferment, which can thrive in a highly acidic environment whereas the commercially-leavened preferment cannot (and may eventually be taken over by the wild yeast). Also, in his book, The Taste of Bread, Professor Calvel points out (at page 44) that you can't use the old dough method indefinitely, that is, through a large number of generations, without the danger of producing undesirable flavors. I believe that is one of the reasons why some bakers periodically make up new batches of old dough ("new" old dough preferments). 

Peter



 

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