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[Trogdor33]

I saw red november mention in another post how he uses "better than sour cream" to impart that natural preferment flavor to his dough. I was wondering if regular sour cream would have a similar effect (as I have this sitting around, but not the fake kind) or if it's because of the way "better than sour cream" is made that makes it impart the good flavor. I am otherwise making a pretty standard lehmann's crust.

[Pete-zza]

I saw red november mention in another post how he uses "better than sour cream" to impart that natural preferment flavor to his dough. I was wondering if regular sour cream would have a similar effect (as I have this sitting around, but not the fake kind) or if it's because of the way "better than sour cream" is made that makes it impart the good flavor. I am otherwise making a pretty standard lehmann's crust.

Trogdor33,

I recall November talking about "Better Than Cream Cheese", by Tofutti, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg39720.html#msg39720, but I don't recall his mentioning "better than sour cream". However, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use sour cream in your dough since that would be similar to using milk (fresh or dry) in a pizza dough. But I don't recall ever seeing a NY style dough formulation that calls for sour cream as one of its ingredients.

As you can see from http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/54/2, sour cream has a water content of about 74%. So, if you decide to use it, you will perhaps want to adjust the hydration of your dough formulation to compensate for the water content of the sour cream.

Peter

[Trogdor33]

I was mistaken, better than cream cheese was what it was called (no wonder it didn't show up in the search for sour cream).

The question then becomes, will real cream cheese work as well?

Edit:

After re-reading november's post, it seems like lactic acid is the goal here, right? If so, than any dairy product that uses lactic acid bacteria should work basically the same way. Am I missing something? I guess at this point I am just wondering why use the tofutti product instead of the real thing. I realize that this isn't a normal ingredient for NY style, but when he mentioned that he uses it as a good replacement for a natural preferment I figured it was an avenue worth going down.

[Pete-zza]

I was mistaken, better than cream cheese was what it was called (no wonder it didn't show up in the search for sour cream).

The question then becomes, will real cream cheese work as well?

Edit:

After re-reading november's post, it seems like lactic acid is the goal here, right? If so, than any dairy product that uses lactic acid bacteria should work basically the same way. Am I missing something? I guess at this point I am just wondering why use the tofutti product instead of the real thing. I realize that this isn't a normal ingredient for NY style, but when he mentioned that he uses it as a good replacement for a natural preferment I figured it was an avenue worth going down.

Trogdor33,

Maybe November can better answer your questions, but if you look at the composition of regular cream cheese at http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/16/2, you will see that it contains about one third fat and 54% water and otherwise seems to be compatible with regular dough ingredients. So, with the proper amount of cream cheese in relation to the amount of formula flour, and adjusting the formula hydration just to be on the safe side, you might be able to make the cream cheese work. As I noted previously, using dairy products in pizza dough is quite common, but not for the NY style. Typical dairy products that I have seen in dough recipes include butter, whey, milk (fresh and dry), buttermilk (fresh and dry), dairy blends (usually a blend of dry milk, whey and dry buttermilk), and cream.

FYI, there was some discussion about the Better Than Cream Cheese product between November and member MWTC starting at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg39727.html#msg39727.

Peter

[November]

Trogdor33,

As Peter pointed out with references to two of my posts on the subject, I used soy based butter and cream cheese products for two reasons: oil and lactic acid.  I say oil specifically because adding saturated (or solid at 68F) fat would change the properties of the dough.  I've used actual dairy products like butter in situations where it's called for such as sweet breakfast rolls with a short fermentation time.  In those cases the dough is supposed to have a denser crumb.  I've also used yogurt when making certain breads such as naan, also with a fairly short fermentation time.  The more dairy is involved the less time I let it ferment.  In the case of sour cream, I would use it in very small quantities if I used it.  For the purpose of making sourdough over the last two years, I've just been adding food grade lactic acid like some bakeries do.

- red.november

[Trogdor33]

November, do you have an online source for lactic acid powder or do you get it locally? I just like the idea of having that sourdough flavor without the hassle of coddling a starter.

-Joe

[November]

November, do you have an online source for lactic acid powder or do you get it locally? I just like the idea of having that sourdough flavor without the hassle of coddling a starter.

It would be rare that one could find a local source for lactic acid.  Purac (http://www.purac.com/) has pretty much cornered the market on lactic acid.  Lots of other acids (e.g. malic, citric, ascorbic) you could use instead are more accessible.

[Trogdor33]

I can buy bulk ascorbic and citric at the local bulk food store, so those are easy, but do they have the same effect on taste?

I read elsewhere that you're a chemical engineer, is it somehow through your job that you get the lactic acid or is it possible for regular folk to source it too?

Edit: found it! http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catalog/acids-c-1.html

[Crider]

I've found both lactic acid and malic acid through online home brewing outfits.

[Trogdor33]

November,

What % of lactic acid would you recommend starting out with in a dough recipe?

[November]

What % of lactic acid would you recommend starting out with in a dough recipe?

I wouldn't presume to know how sour you want your dough.  I can tell you that the baker percentage of lactic acid found in sourdough is around 0.6-0.7%.

[Trogdor33]

I am just looking for a good starting point and am not quite sure how sour I want it until I experiment a bit. That should give me a good spot to work from.

Thanks for all your help.