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[msilvestro]

I've been following Jeff Varasano's instructions using my kitchen aid mixer. I let the flour and water autolyse for the full 20 Min's. I wet kneaded it for 6 Min's before adding the last 25% of the flour. i really don't understand how much longer i need to continue kneading. 

This time i kneading it on speed 2 for a total of 12-15 Min's.  I bulk proofed it for 24 hours at room temp, then balled it and proofed it for another 5 hours. after proofing the dough felt smooth and soft, but when i tried the stretch it all it would do is tear. Where did i go wrong? 

we cooked then in my brick oven, they tasted great but i could only get pizzas that were 8-10 inch round

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    1110.18 g  |  39.16 oz | 2.45 lbs
Water (64%):    710.51 g  |  25.06 oz | 1.57 lbs
Salt (3%):    33.31 g | 1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.94 tsp | 2.31 tbsp
Total (167%):   1854 g | 65.4 oz | 4.09 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   309 g | 10.9 oz | 0.68 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    44.5 g | 1.57 oz | 0.1 lbs
Water:    48.2 g | 1.7 oz | 0.11 lbs
Total:    92.7 g | 3.27 oz | 0.2 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    1065.68 g | 37.59 oz | 2.35 lbs
Water:    662.31 g | 23.36 oz | 1.46 lbs
Salt:    33.31 g | 1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.94 tsp | 2.31 tbsp
Preferment:    92.7 g | 3.27 oz | 0.2 lbs
Total:    1854 g | 65.4 oz | 4.09 lbs  | TF = N/A

Thanks
Mark

[Pete-zza]

Mark,

It's possible that your dough was overfermented. Your starter use was at preferment levels (about 13% of the weight of the formula water), and that, combined with a total of 29 hours of room temperature fermentation, may have been too much. Can you tell us what the room temperature was? Also, can you tell us the oven temperature you used and the degree of color coloration of the finished crusts?

Peter

[msilvestro]

Mark,

It's possible that your dough was overfermented. Your starter use was at preferment levels (about 13% of the weight of the formula water), and that, combined with a total of 29 hours of room temperature fermentation, may have been too much. Can you tell us what the room temperature was? Also, can you tell us the oven temperature you used and the degree of color coloration of the finished crusts?

Peter

I was using active Ischia starter and fermented at 70-71 degrees.  I did proof them in my kitchen oven with the light on for 5 hours.  Peter are saying that used too starter. I though I plugged in 5% of total dough weight. could that have been my problem?

[msilvestro]

I am using 100% caputo 00 flour , if that matter. My oven temp is white hot with a fire still going in the back of the oven.  Then pizzas would cook in under a 60 second.

[Pete-zza]

Mark,

I believe that you used the preferment dough calculating tool correctly. I related your preferment quantity to the weight of water, since, as Marco (pizzanapoletana) once reminded me, that is the method used in Naples. His usual recommendation on the starter quantity is 1% to 5% of the weight of the formula water, with the upper end of that range corresponding to doughs made in the cooler part of the year, as in the winter, and the lower end of that range corresponding to the warmer part of the year, as in summer. Of course, the starter has to be a very active starter at the time of its use. Also, as noted at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8562/topicseen.html#msg8562, Marco recommended at least 12 hours in bulk and 3-4 hours more after dividing and scaling. The ideal fermentation temperature that Marco recommended was 18-20 degrees C (64.4-68 degrees F), as he noted at Reply 87 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg10972/topicseen.html#msg10972.

So, as you can see, the results you get will depend on the amount, type and condition of the starter culture (or preferment), the temperature at which the dough is fermented, and the duration of the fermentation period (in bulk and individual dough balls).

Peter

[msilvestro]

I'm still confused as to why i could not stretch the dough with out it tearing.  Is it my formula or process?

[Matthew]

I'm still confused as to why i could not stretch the dough with out it tearing.  Is it my formula or process?

It could be a little bit of both.  You are quite high on the hydration end for Caputo, you may want to consider lowering your hydration to 58-60%.  Your Kitchen Aid mixer is pretty aggressive & you may be overheating your dough prematurely, especially that your speed is set to 2.  My recommendation is that you knead your dough at the slowest speed & stop your mixer prior to the dough reaching 80 degrees & finish kneading by hand.  After 80 degrees your dough will go from a ball to a batter.  So try to stop your machine before this happens.

Good Luck,
Matt

[msilvestro]

Thank Matt,

Kneading seems to be my problem. the dough never forms a ball the dough hook just keeps pushing through the dough. I don't know when to stop the machine. perhaps less water is the answer

[Matthew]

Thank Matt,

Kneading seems to be my problem. the dough never forms a ball the dough hook just keeps pushing through the dough. I don't know when to stop the machine. perhaps less water is the answer

You may want to try to hand knead your next batch.  I have an Electrolux DLX & had a Santos fork mixer,  I always finish my dough with a quick hand knead & the results are consistently excellent.  It very difficult to properly knead a Caputo dough with a planetary mixer.

Matt

[Pete-zza]

Mark,

Tears or rips forming in a dough skin is one symptom of an overfermented dough. That is why I asked you about the crust coloration, which is another indicator of overfermentation. There are other indicators of overfermentation mentioned at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3203.msg27125.html#msg27125 and also at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8488.msg73503/topicseen.html#msg73503. I once intentionally tried to "kill" a naturally leavened dough by letting it overferment. I wanted to see if there were differences between such an overfermented dough and one leavened with commercial yeast. I succeeded in killing the naturally leavened dough and concluded that both types of doughs behaved similarly when overfermented, as I discussed at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5505.msg46570/topicseen.html#msg46570.

If you can describe more fully the characteristics of your dough at the time you tried to make skins, maybe we can better tell what happened in your case. If your dough was not overfermented, then there might have been other causes, as Matthew has mentioned.

Peter

[msilvestro]

Peter,

When the dough was cooking the color was white to light tan. for about 30-40 seconds then it went to black in a matter of seconds.  most skins where this way. I thought the oven may have been too hot.   We also cooked store bought dough that cooked perfectly.  One more thing, after bulk fermentation and before balling the dough have a consistency  Tripe. That is the best comparison that i can give. I added some bench flour and hand kneaded for about 1 min and the dough got smooth but still very sticky.

[Pete-zza]

Mark,

What you describe sounds like a case of overfermentation to me. However, the only way to know for sure is to repeat your recipe but use either less starter/preferment or a shorter fermentation time, or possibly some combination of both. If you decide to go this route, I hope you will let us know what results you get.

Peter

[msilvestro]

Thanks to everyone,

I'll be trying again this weekend . i'll post my results. 

[Bill/SFNM]

use either less starter/preferment or a shorter fermentation time, or possibly some combination of both.

Only time I've ever had this problem was a result of over-fermentation. Perhaps a lower fermentation temp might also help.

[msilvestro]

Only time I've ever had this problem was a result of over-fermentation. Perhaps a lower fermentation temp might also help.

Bill,


I'm new to all this and I needed a place to start.  24 hour room temp ferment ( 70-71degrees)  and 5 hour proof are what i read that you do your  Ischia starter. How does one tell when the dough ready and not to let it over ferment. 

I made dough 2 weeks ago using the same formula and process and the dough stretched just fine. They only thing i can think of is that the starter may have been more active this time.
 
Do you think that 5% of total dough weight is too much starter?

Lastly, is it possible that i just didn't knead the dough long enough to develop properly.

Thank you all

Mark

[Bill/SFNM]

24 hour room temp ferment ( 70-71degrees)  and 5 hour proof are what i read that you do your  Ischia starter. How does one tell when the dough ready and not to let it over ferment. 

Do you think that 5% of total dough weight is too much starter?

Lastly, is it possible that i just didn't knead the dough long enough to develop properly.

Mark,

My latest regimen has been 19-hour ferment plus 5 hour proof for a total of 24 hours. This is a rough number and I have had very satisfactory results with both shorter and longer times. To determine when the dough is ready for the next stage - that is a tough one - but I usually wait until I see a both small and large bubbles distributed throughout the dough. I've got a batch fermenting now so I'll take a photo to show what I mean. (It should be ready Friday which will be a 48-hour dough due to scheduling issues tomorrow; it has been a while since I did a 2-day dough at a lower temp. Curious to see how it turns out)

I have been very happy with 6% of total dough mass for the starter. This kind of dough doesn't need much kneading, but it is possible you didn't knead enough. For your next batch, divide it in half and knead one more than the other and see what that reveals to you about kneading time.
 
Hope this helps. Keep on plugging.

[Bill/SFNM]

I've got a batch fermenting now so I'll take a photo to show what I mean.

[msilvestro]

update:

I made dough this past Friday and let it ferment for 19 hours at 75 degrees and only a 2 hour proof (because i ran out of time) and the dough worked much better.I did drop my hydration down from 66 to 60%. It stretched with out tearing. I guess my last attempt was over fermented.

This has been a great learning experience for me.

Thanks to everyone
Mark