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[Steve973]

Hi all,

I am attempting to re-create Philly style pizza.  I am enjoying my recipe so far, but I would love to hear some feedback from those of you here with more experience than me.  That would include all of you, most likely.  So here is my sauce and dough recipe, followed by my procedure:

Sauce:

29 oz can of plain tomato sauce
1/2 tsp dried basil
1/4 tsp dried oregano
1/4 tsp black pepper
1/4 tsp garlic powder
1/4 tsp onion powder
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar

Dough:

3.5 cups high gluten (bread) flour
1 cup 110F warm water
2 tbsp olive oil
2 tsp active dry yeast
1 tsp salt

I usually just combine all of the sauce ingredients and give them a day or two to develop flavor.

When I mix my dough, I rehydrate the yeast in the specified amount of warm water for about 5 or 10 minutes.  While this is happening, I mix all of my dry ingredients together.  When the yeast is rehydrated, I pour that mixture into my bread maker, and I pour the dry ingredients on top.  I let the bread maker knead the dough for about 20 minutes.  This results in a dough that is supple, moist but able to be handled, and one that has a good texture.  I split the dough in half, round, coat in oil, and let it sit overnight in the refrigerator for flavor development and rise.

When I am ready to make my pizza, I let the dough come to room temperature.  I first press the dough ball on a floured counter, and then I toss it by hand.  When it is around 13 or 14 inches, I place it on my peel for topping.  It gets a light coating of sauce, and then about 4 ounces of low-moisture, part skim mozzarella that I shred by hand.  I have preheated my oven at 550F, and the stone has preheated at that temperature for 30 minutes.  It takes me about six minutes to cook the pizza.

Some notes:
Sometimes I cook the pizza with my oven on the convection setting.  I tend to get more crispness and more browning with convection than I do with regular (non-convection) baking.  Currently, I measure the flour by volume.  I am using King Arthur bread flour, and it usually comes out to about 13.5 ounces of flour.  In the future, I will measure by weight for better consistency, but it has not been a problem up to this point, since I am careful when I measure.

As soon as I am not quite as new here, and it allows me, I will post pictures.

Thanks in advance for all replies!

[Steve973]

What might be interesting to note is that I had formulated my own dough recipe what was quite a bit more moist than the recipe that I'm using now.  The old recipe is like this:

8 oz (weight) high gluten (bread) flour
5 oz (volume) water
1 1/4 tsp active dry yeast
3/4 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar

I was never impressed with the amount of rise (during cooking) that I got with this recipe.  The above recipe is much better in that way, and it is easier to handle and form into a crust.

[Steve973]

Ok, I think I have just enough posts to put links in to what my pizza and procedure look like:

Pressing out the dough:
http://i36.tinypic.com/fbkyon.jpg

Grated low-moisture, part skim mozzarella:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2jbumgk.jpg

After pressing and hand tossing, on the peel and ready for topping:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2mqu7hv.jpg

Sauce, but not too much:
http://i33.tinypic.com/spx64k.jpg

Cheese, and again, not too much:
http://i33.tinypic.com/2rwlssw.jpg

Other toppings at this point:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2z3x89d.jpg

It's done when there is some brown on the crust and the cheese browns a bit:
http://i34.tinypic.com/2dv2wk3.jpg

Time to eat:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2ik3zf4.jpg

[Pete-zza]

Steve973,

I am not aware of what differentiates a Philadelphia dough from others, but is there anything that you are not satisfied with using your current recipe or that you would like to fix or change?

Peter

[Steve973]

My family and I enjoy the current recipe very much, but I suppose that there's always room for improvement.  I would possibly make the dough slightly chewier, and maybe make the crust edge a tad puffier.

[Pete-zza]

Steve973,

Since you provided a typical flour weight (13.5 ounces), I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a baker's percent version of your dough recipe. For that purpose, I assumed that one cup of water weighs 8.2 ounces. I got the following:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): Water (60.7402%): ADY (1.9753%): Salt (1.45833%): Olive Oil (7.05467%): Total (171.2285%):

382.73 g  |  13.5 oz | 0.84 lbs 232.47 g  |  8.2 oz | 0.51 lbs 7.56 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp 655.34 g | 23.12 oz | 1.44 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: For two dough balls, each 11.56 ounces; corresponding thickness factor for 13" pizza = 0.0870773, and 0.0750819 for a 14" pizza

There are two numbers that jump out at me when I study the above dough formulation. The first one is the amount of ADY. It is almost double the amount one would use to make a dough usable within about a couple hours (at room temperature)--often referred to as an "emergency" dough--and far more than what one would normally use for a cold fermented dough. Also, if you use all of the formula water at around 105 degrees F, and knead the dough in a bread maker for 20 minutes, I would expect the dough to rise very rapidly, even after placing the dough in the refrigerator. My practice when using a bread machine for a cold fermented dough is to use a small amount of yeast and use ice cold water. If I plan to use ADY, I would rehydrate it in a small amount of the formula water, at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes. I would use the rest of the formula water ice cold in the bread maker. If you would like to read about some of my experiences making pizza dough in a bread machine, see Reply 51 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 and Reply 260 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113.

The second number that jumps out at me from your dough formulation is the amount of olive oil, around 7%. There is nothing wrong with that amount of oil, per se, but that amount of oil will have a tendency to produce a soft and tender crumb, rather than a chewy one. The reason is that the oil prevents moisture in the dough from evaporating during baking. If you want a chewier crust and crumb, you might consider cutting back on the amount of olive oil in your dough. You may have to experiment with different amounts until you find the sweet spot for your purposes.

You can also get a chewier crust by using a higher-protein, higher-gluten flour. One such flour would be the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. There are other comparable high-gluten flours, but many of them are bromated, which may or may not be a concern to you. An alternative to using a higher gluten flour is to replace part of your KABF with vital wheat gluten (VWG) in an amount to achieve a protein content for the blend that is comparable to that of a naturally higher gluten flour, for example, around 14-14.2%. There is a Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://www.unclesalmon.com/tools/food.php that you can use to determine what amount of VWG is needed, based on your particular brand of VWG, to achieve the targeted protein content.

You may have noted that I referenced thickness factors in the above table for the two sizes of pizzas (13" and 14") that you mentioned. I don't know what kinds of crust thicknesses are characteristic of a Philadelphia style pizza, but the two thickness factor values I mentioned are characteristic of a thin NY style pizza, more in line with the "elite" style.

My only other comment is that when I use a pizza stone, I preheat it for about an hour. In my oven, 30 minutes is too short a preheat time. It may be that your pizza stone has not been hot enough to produce a better oven spring and a puffier rim.

If I can be of any further help, let me know. Now that I have a baker's percent version of your dough recipe, it is easy to use it to change any ingredient quantity or to come up with a thicker or thinner crust or to make any number of dough balls and desired pizza sizes.

Peter

[Steve973]

Peter, thanks for the excellent and detailed reply.  The beauty of the internet and forums like this one is that there are experts that are literally a few clicks away.  Tonight, I took your advice about heating the stone for an hour.  I noticed more bubbles forming in the crust, so I think I will make sure that (provided I have time) I will always give the stone about an hour of heating time at 550F.

I already had a dough ball from my previous batch, so I couldn't try any of your other suggestions.  I would like to experiment with the dough when I make my next batch.  Now, I'm not particularly attached to my current recipe, so I'm totally open for suggestions.  Is there a favorite recipe here for New York pizza dough?  Otherwise, I'm interested in what you'd recommend regarding my yeast amount and my oil amount.  Thanks again!

[Pete-zza]

Steve,

Sometimes a member will be generally happy with a dough recipe but just wants to improve it. So, for example, if I were to incorporate the types of changes I earlier suggested, I might use something like the following for a cold fermented dough for two 13" pizzas made in your bread maker and usable up to two or three days:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): Water (62%): ADY (0.40%): Salt (1.5%): Olive Oil (2.5%): Total (166.4%): Single Ball:

388.28 g  |  13.7 oz | 0.86 lbs 240.73 g  |  8.49 oz | 0.53 lbs 1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp 5.82 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp 9.71 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.16 tsp | 0.72 tbsp 646.1 g | 22.79 oz | 1.42 lbs | TF = 0.08585 323.05 g | 11.4 oz | 0.71 lbs

Note: For two 13" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.085; bowl residue compensation = 1%

For purposes of the above dough formulation, I assumed that you would still be using the KABF. That is why I used a hydration of 62%, which is the rated absorption value for that flour. If you decide that you want to switch to the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour, then I would use a hydration of 63%. I also assumed a nominal thickness factor of 0.085, and that you would make two 13" pizzas from the total amount of dough produced using the above dough formulation. Since you will be using a bread machine, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1%. I usually use a higher figure for doughs made using a stand mixer or by hand, but I have discovered that there is little loss of dough during preparation in a bread machine. I decided on 2.5% for the oil. That is a starting value from which you can go up or down based on the results.

As you can see, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, you can make all kinds of changes. You might want to play around with the tool just to see how it works. If you'd like, you can even change the above dough formulation to better suit your needs. However, whichever dough formulation you decide to use, I would suggest using cold water in your bread maker for the part of the formula water that is not used to rehydrate the ADY. You might even cut back on the knead time. There are some bread makers that also let you knead dough without the heat feature. Unfortunately, my machine does not work that way.

As far as a NY style dough formulation is concerned, I estimate that there are about a dozen different NY style dough formulations on the forum, with many variations. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is perhaps the one most commonly used by our members, either in its basic form or with variations. It is a very basic NY style dough formulation. One member, Art, seems to have perfected a version of the Lehmann NY style dough in his bread machine, as he has noted at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5931.msg51034/topicseen.html#msg51034. Art doesn't follow all of my usual recommendations for making dough in a bread machine but, as he noted at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6401.msg54855/topicseen.html#msg54855, he does use cold water right out of the refrigerator. Art also uses IDY instead of ADY. Switching to ADY, you would need to use 0.27% ADY.

Peter




 

[Steve973]

Peter,

Thanks for all of the information.  I used the Lehmann calculator and played around with a few numbers for ease of measuring, and everything seemed to line up just perfectly.  The flavor was outstanding, the color was much better than before, and the texture was firmer and chewier!

The recipe that I used is this one:
Flour (100%):      265.93 g  |  9.38 oz | 0.59 lbs
Water (62%):      164.88 g  |  5.82 oz | 0.36 lbs
ADY (0.36%):      0.96 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (1.05%):      2.79 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Oil (0.84%):      2.23 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):      3.99 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Total (165.75%): 440.78 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = 0.101

[Pete-zza]

Steve,

I'm glad to hear that things worked out well for you with the new dough formulation. Since you have learned how to use the dough calculating tool, you should also now be in a position to tweak the formulation--or even overhaul it if you'd like--and note the effects of the changes on the results.

Did you use any temperature control in making the last dough or did you just use your normal bread maker methods?

Peter

[Steve973]

As you suggested, I rehydrated the yeast in a small amount of water, and used cold water from my refrigerator for the remainder of the quantity.  The resultant dough ball was rather chilly, so it seems that my Oster bread machine doesn't use heat during the kneading, or it uses very little.  Note that I don't allow the bread maker to complete the full dough cycle.  After some time of initial kneading, I take the dough out.  It definitely heats up after the initial kneading, though.

I will be sure to post pictures of the next pizza to show the difference this dough makes.