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[heliman]

Next batch made this evening....

Flour   672.7 g
Water   430.5 g
Yeast   3.4 g
Salt   13.5 g
(added gluten flour - 54 g replacing some of the pizza flour)

Chilled, flour and water (starting to form ice).

Autolyse 20 mins (in fridge)

Kneaded 5 mins, stopped, kneaded 3 mins, stopped, kneaded 2 mins (max temp = 23 C)

Light knead then cut into 4 portions.

Made balls then placed in fridge - will test tomorrow lunch.

Looking good so far!!

BTW - serviced my KA today - adjusted the head clearance and put threadlock on the shaft screw. Runs soooo much better now!!!

Rossco

[heliman]

Very pleased with the results.

I reckon if I had done it in the WFO the results would have been even better..

May just crank up the WFO tomorrow and test this batch out.

Rossco

[Pete-zza]

Chilled, flour and water (starting to form ice).

Autolyse 20 mins (in fridge)

Rossco,

Out of curiosity, can you tell me why you chilled the flour and water and used a refrigerator autolyse? I know that Peter Reinhart has espoused using chilled flour and ice cold water in at least one of his books, and I know that similar measures are taken when making frozen doughs, and they might also be used for doughs that are to be cold fermented for very extended periods (by getting the finished dough temperature as low as possible), but such measures are not used in Naples for Neapolitan pizza doughs to the best of my knowledge. In your case, was the cold processing the only way you could get a finished dough temperature of 23 degrees C (73.4 degrees F)? The usual range in a home environment with a standard refrigerator is 75-80 degrees F (23.9-26.7 degrees C). Also, in your case, what was your room temperature?

Peter

[heliman]

Hi Peter ...

The reason that I went with (Rhinehart's inspired) cold water methodology was primarily that when using room temperature water (around 27 C) and then the KA, the dough got too warm. So, in experimenting, I decided to go as cold as possible by firstly making very cold water and trying to keep the dough as cold as possible throughout the process. It has been very humid lately here (Perth, Western Australia) as well which also impacts on the dough temperature.

The findings were that the finished dough was a few degrees cooler than the minimum suggested so for the next batch I will not make the water as cold as before and also not do a fridge autolyse. This should bring the temperature of the dough in line with the suggested temperature rage.

The last batch of finished dough had good properties though so it doesn't seem like the super cold water had any negative impact on the end result. I am interested to see though what the next batch turns out like as a direct comparison. Hopefully it will be even better.

So to answer your question, yes, the cold water process was simply to reduce the temperature to get closer to the suggested temp as earlier batches using room temp water turned out around 32 C. I would say that the temperate in Naples would be quite a bit lower than in Western Australia therefore they likely didn't need to make reference to that element of the dough making process for their standard, it was just assumed. Perhaps they also did not factor in the use of a mechanical device like a mixer which also contributes to the increased temperature.

Hope that clarifies.

Rossco

[Pete-zza]

Rossco,

Thank you for the explanation.

The reason I posed the question about the cold dough is that sometimes a dough that is cold and is used after only a short period of fermentation, such as a day in the refrigerator, doesn't ferment sufficiently to produce the best results. Typically, for example, the organic acid production tends to be low, leading to a high pH and, if the residual sugar levels are also low, because of the decreased fermentation, there can be reduced oven spring and a crust that is thicker than normal. When I have made cold doughs like yours, I used very long fermentation times.

FYI, the Reinhart dough recipe I had in mind when I last posted is this one: http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/001199.html.

Peter

[heliman]

Thanks for the info Peter,

That certainly is what I observed during the baking!

I made the first pizza after about 18 hours of fermenting in the fridge and the texture was good - but certainly not as good as the batch that had fermented about 30 hours (which I felt was a personal best for me - texture wise).

So the next batch will be within the 24 - 27 C range during the kneading stage as I intend using it within about 18 hrs.

I am just wondering if I should leave out the small amount of "Gluten Flour" that I am addding to the pizza mix to test the results. Would this result in a dough that is less firm and easier to stretch?

Rossco

[Pete-zza]

I am just wondering if I should leave out the small amount of "Gluten Flour" that I am addding to the pizza mix to test the results. Would this result in a dough that is less firm and easier to stretch?

Rossco,

Reading some of the earlier posts, it sounds like your basic flour has a nominal protein content of 11%. It is also possible that the "gluten flour" that you have is vital wheat gluten. I say that because many countries outside of the U.S. use the expression "gluten flour" for vital wheat gluten. If I am correct on this, if you replaced 57 grams of your 672.7 grams of flour with vital wheat gluten that has a typical protein content of 75%, then the protein content of your flour blend would be about 16.14%. That would be far too much vital wheat gluten and far too high a protein content and would make for a stiffer dough with less than optimum performance characteristics. FYI, I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://www.unclesalmon.com/tools/food.php to determine the protein content of 16.14%. 

At this juncture, you may want to determine whether what you have (gluten flour) is actually vital wheat gluten. The label information may be instructive on this point. FYI, most vital wheat glutens have a protein content of about 65-78%, depending on brand. That is the range of numbers I would look for on the label and see if you spot a value in that range. It is perhaps best to await your response before proceeding further.

Peter

[heliman]

Thanks Peter,

I bought the "Gluten Flour" from a local grocery store and I scooped it out of a sack on the floor and didn't notice a label on it and so don't have the infot immediately available. It is a grey substance and could very well be vital wheat gluten but I am not certain. One bread supply company I contacted seemed to use the VWG and gluten flour interchangeably so possibly what I have is indeed VWG.

I had a look at the chart but there was no guide to using it and my four (or an 11% equivalent) wasn't available so I wasn't able to make the necessary calculations to upscale my mix to around 12% (is that the target?). What was interesting was the protein content of Caputo which some would suggest is the "benchmark" for protein levels.

Perhaps if I use 1/2 or even 1/4 of the 54 grams of gluten flour previously used, that may boost my mix to a better protein level and offer improved results.

Rossco

[heliman]

OK - contacted the supplier who emailed me the specs on the "Gluten Flour" which as you suggested is actually vital wheat gluten (75%).

So how much VWG would I need to add to my flour to bring it up to the "perfect" pizza protein level? Using say 500 grams flour - what would this translate to as of course I would need to reduce the 500 gram initial amount to accommodate the amount of VWG added. It's all getting quite complicated!!!!

Thanks very much for the guidance.

Rossco

======

   Per 100g
Energy   1568kJ
Protein   75.0g
Fat, total   < 1g
  - saturated       < 1g
  - trans fatty acids   <0.1g
Carbohydrate   16.0g
  - sugars   <0.1g
Dietary Fibre   < 1g
Ash   < 1g
Sodium   16mg

[Pete-zza]

Rossco,

The Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour has a rated protein content of 11.5-12.5%. However, there is also a Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour that has a lower protein content and a Caputo Rosso 00 flour that has a higher protein content. There are also many other brands of 00 flour, many of which tend to be lower in protein content than the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Since the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is the one that most of our members use, I will explain below how to increase the protein content of your basic flour using vital wheat gluten to equate that of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. However, before doing so, I'd like to mention that increasing the protein content of your basic flour to equate that of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour will not yield a product that is the same as the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and will not perform in the same manner as that flour. The reason for this is that the two flours have different types and quality of protein and gluten. In my view, the better way to simulate 00 flour, including the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, is to use a blend of your basic flour and either cake flour or pastry flour. In my opinion, such a blend does a better job of simulating the softness of a 00 flour. By contrast, adding VWG to your basic flour, which has a protein content similar to our domestic all-purpose flour, will make it behave more like a bread flour. The use of blends of all-purpose flour (and also bread flour) with cake or pastry flour has been discussed on many occasions on this forum. These blends came into being at a time where 00 flours were not readily available at the retail level in the U.S. (and many other countries). Examples of typical dough formulations that use a blend of flours to simulate 00 flour are discussed at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1104.msg9835.html#msg9835. If you do a forum search using my User name and "cake flour" and "pastry flour", you will find further discussion of similar flour blends.

To return to your original question regarding the supplementation of your basic flour with vital wheat gluten, if you want to end up with a protein content of 11.5-12.5%, you would replace part of your basic flour (assuming 500 grams) with 3.91 grams (for 11.5%) to 11.7 grams (for 12.5%) of VWG.

Peter

[heliman]

Thanks very much for this information Peter. I will certainly do some reading on this topic as suggested.

BTW I have got some 00 flour which is locally available which is very fine (but of a lower protein content). That may be a suitable product to use as a base for a future blend.

Rossco

[heliman]

Update:
======

Made another batch of dough this evening using the ratio listed below. Temp was 24.2 which seems OK.

Difference this time was that I just used cold water from the fridge (not almost frozen as I did last time).

Results were excellent and the 9 min knead produced a very smooth, silky end result.

I won't be able to bake tomorow night, only the evening after that. Will the dough still be good after 48 hrs? (I have been using .5 % yeast).

Rossco

[Pete-zza]

I won't be able to bake tomorow night, only the evening after that. Will the dough still be good after 48 hrs? (I have been using .5 % yeast).

Rossco,

I think you should be OK at 48 hours.

Peter

[heliman]

Thanks Peter.

BTW I have had a play with the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator that you gave me the link to and I now understand it!! Definitely a handy tool to experiment with different mix ratios!

Rossco

[heliman]

Disappointing Session
================

The batch of dough I made on Wednesday night and baked on Friday night seemed to have lost its texture. I made two of the four balls and after struggling with the poor dough binned the remainder of the dough and started again. The dough actually seemed wet so maybe the lid of the container didn't seal properly.

I substituted a small amount of VWG with the pizza mix and used very cold water (64%). I autolysed for 20 mins and found the dough to be like firm rubber. I added the yeast and salt after that and then did a 5 + 5 minute knead in the KA and it remained as hard as Goodyear rubber.

After an overnight fridge rest, I took the balls out of the fridge about 3 hrs before baking. The texture was still very rubbery and I had to really fight the "spring back" to get the pizza shaped. To top it all - after I got the fire to around 400 Deg C, the pizzas burned underneath...

What a disasterous session this was...

Won't be making any more dough till next Tuesday (catering for 12 work colleagues on Wednesday). Hopefully that round will produce better results!!!

Rossco

[heliman]

Did another batch of dough on Tuesday evening with a bake off using about 3 kg of dough yesterday. The results were superb and the dough had a nice texture. I used room temp water, 65% hydration and an overnight fermentation. The dough kept very well for a few days (unlike my last batch which I don't think was stored correctly) and actually got better this evening and looks set to be even better tomorrow.

The 10 people I had around for a lunch time pizza party here yesterday were very complimentary on the pizzas - among them a former Italian restaurant owner which was very positive!

I am working on "reading" the dough now to get the exact hydration point. A work in progress for sure!!! Pic below of this evenings bake in the electric oven.

Rossco

[Pete-zza]

Rossco,

Nice job. Which dough recipe did you use this time and what, if anything, did you change from your prior pizzas to get the improved results?

Peter

[heliman]

Thanks Peter ..

This is the recipe used (note no VWG used this time)

Flour   500.0   100.00%
Water   325.0   65.00%
Yeast   2.5   0.50%
Salt   10.0   2.00%

Flour used is local pizza flour 11% protein.

Room temp water, 20 min autolyse, 16 hr fridge fermentation.

Rossco